Nuudawn

Yup
Yup
Yup
Yup.
Agreed on all counts. Wow.

GracieLou

If anything I feel it is the opposite. They do not see the influence. I know I didn't. Once they past a certain point, or in my case once I have one drink, all bets are off the table. I did not see anything past the first drink. Every instinct that should have told me I have had enough, that I was already drunk, that I was heading for another blackout was gone.

We all have the fight or flight instinct. IMO the normal person flees from the mind altering feeling or the loss of control. They have a drink or two, feel the effects and stop. The alcoholic fights with it. I may lose every single time, but I kept trying.

This is the mystery of the alcoholic that the normal person cannot understand. Those inborn instincts that should tell me I have had enough, mine are ignored or perhaps not there. My switch is missing or broken. The alcohol ads that remind us to drink in moderation or drink responsibly are not pointing to the average Joe. They do not need this to be pointed out.

Ending the fight was my only option. I decided not to fight anymore. Moderation is not an option for me because, IMO, that is still fighting.

Why anyone takes any mind altering substance is moot for the me. Why I had that first drink, I have no clue. It was not a conscience, this will make me feel better or help me deal with my problems, decision. Many of us started way before our brains were developed enough to even have that discussion with ourselves.

Alcoholism does not choose its victims. It is not a lion on the prowl seeking out the weak or the slow like prey. Research tells us that there are some that are more prone but even that flies out the door at times.

All this blah blah, again, does not really matter to me. I knew about it and I know about it. Knowledge is power or "the more you know" does nothing for me. Possessing that scientific knowledge did not make me quit and it does not keep me sober. All of that is for the scientist or the scholar, which I am neither.

I am an alcoholic.

gaffo

This thread is very interesting to me. Basically I am an alcoholic that should never drink and the simplicity of that statement is the foundation of my sobriety.

That said, I am comfortable enough in my sobriety to intellectualize my alcoholism sometimes. I think that my teenaged drinking lit me up right away and that any later justifications were just a way to justify my continued drinking. I was covering up my "laziness"--my inability to quit poisoning myself. Insane concepts like "Moderation", "High Functioning Alcoholic", and "Hair of the Dog" were just bad tools that I picked up along the trail.

GracieLou

I do agree that "Functioning Alcoholic" did play a part for me not getting help or admitting I needed help sooner. I am not sure if I would define it as laziness though.

I was by definition, if there is one, a Functioning Alcoholic but not because I wanted to be. I used to want more than anything that someone else would watch the kids, go to the open houses, meet with the teachers, someone else to clean the house, do the shopping, cook the dinners, someone else to figure out the bills, write the checks, rob Peter to pay Paul. I wanted all this so I could drink the way I wanted to. It was all about me. It was my selfish and self-seeking way of thinking and the way of life I led for many years.

Any chance, excuse or reason I could create to get away from the above I did and I did it to get drunk. It progressed the entire time. What I could consume in a week to get drunk ten years ago would not have been enough for one night at the end. Over the years as my responsibilities declined, the more alcohol was poured in. As people fell out of my life more alcohol poured in. When I lost my job in 2009 and I got an easier job that required less mental ability, more alcohol poured in.

I finally got to a place in my life that I was single and my kids were grown and out of the house. Other than my job and a couple bills, I was finally "free". I could drink the way I always wanted to and with no inhibitions. It did not take long for me to I fall right off the edge. The show, and I admit not a very good one, that I had been putting on for years was over. It was just me and my bottle.

So not laziness. A slow but steady crawl may be a better word to describe my experience. Why after 26 years I have gotten to this point, I have no clue anymore than why I picked up a drink in the first place.

SeanMc

Many thanks GracieLou, and the others, all very enlightening as ever.

To some extent my experience was the same but I often felt I could correlate the amount I was getting down me with the amount of stress going on, which leads me to think there's more than broken switches in people...

Good to talk with you.

longbeachone

I'm sure many of you know this, but for those that don't, and in response to the question about drinking in moderation, I submit the following true story:

In March 2000, Audrey Kishline, founder of "Moderation Management", a controlled-drinking oriented, self-help program alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous, drove her pickup truck the wrong way down Interstate 90 near Seattle, Washington, USA, killing Richard Davis, 38, and LaSchell, his 12-year-old daughter, in a head-on collision. Kishline was driving drunk. She pled guilty to two counts of vehicular homicide in August 2000 and was sentenced to four-and-a-half years in prison in Washington. The incident sparked significant controversy around the world regarding the efficacy of controlled-drinking programs. People who believe in the myth of the disease model of alcoholism tend to consider controlled-drinking programs "dangerous." Kishline's behavior allegedly proved their point: "Alcoholics" cannot drink responsibly.

Taken from an article in Psychology Today

Dee74

I'm sorry longbeachone, but I really hate when people use that example.

What rarely gets mentioned is that Audrey Kishline had given up moderation by this time and was back in AA.

It's not actually some kind of moderation moral lesson - and it's not an indictment against AA either - it's just another alcoholic tragedy, the kind that sadly happens every day and personally I wish people would stop trying to make points from it,

We all have our own, real, authentic moderation horror stories - I don't know why they're not enough?

D

GracieLou

Self will run riot.

longbeachone

Dee, I bring up the fatal drunk driving accident caused by Moderation Management spokeswoman Audrey Kishline because it is incredibly ironic. She began a movement. She wrote a book with the sole purpose of convincing alcoholics that they could drink in moderation. So Ms. Kishline discovered that she had no idea what she was talking about, because she publicly relapsed, then several months later fell in a rather spectacular, albeit tragic, way.

I searched around looking for a grand gesture from this woman, stating that she had been wrong. Something informing people that her statements were unfounded and inaccurate, said with as much conviction as she had once tried to prove the opposite, and that there was no such thing as moderation. I found one an email that she wrote to her fellow MMers, saying that while Moderation might work for them, she had found that she needed abstinence. She also wrote a memoir from prison with Sheryl Maloy (wife and mother of the victims killed in the drunk driving accident). In this memoir, Kishline admits that she had NEVER practiced moderation, and had been secretly drinking in excess even while promoting the book all over the national media. She did not say she had been wrong, she still supported the Moderation program, just not for her. And the worst thing...

THE GUIDE, WRITTEN BY HER, IS STILL FOR SALE ON AMAZON TODAY! The inside flap states "Kishline offers inspiration and a step-by-step program to help individuals avoid the kind of drinking that experimentally affects their lives"

So, I'm sorry, but I have no problem using this story as a cautionary tale on the perils of moderation. I understand that you feel differently, and certainly respect that, but it's not cool to scold me for using this story to make my point. Considering that Kishline is making money from the memoir, in addition to the moderation guidebook profits, I would think that it would be fairly easy to seek some sort of injunction halting the sale of the book, or at least including an addendum, but this has not happened. I'm fairly certain that a judge would rule in her favor, considering the facts of the case, and the public's current disdain for drunk driving and alcoholism in general. So, Dee, no hard feelings, just a difference of opinion. I enjoy your point of view and have been, and will continue to be, interested in what you have to say. Thanks for the discourse.

HeadLump

Oh, GracieLou. This is so, so true and so brilliantly articulated.

Sadly, I don't think intelligence has anything to do with alcoholism - well, certainly not with mine!

MeSoSober

Dee is right. You can't point to an example of why moderation doesn't work (Kishline's horrific accident) when the person who caused the accident wasn't TRYING to moderate. That makes no sense. That's like pointing to morbidly obese person to show that dieting and exercise don't work when that person isn't trying to limit their food intake or exercising. It's not "scolding," it's pointing out a fact that is absolutely critical to your argument.

The question of whether Kishline should continue to profit from the sale of the book or whether the book should be available for sale at all is an entirely separate issue.

SeanMc

longbeachone, don't know about the differences of view with Dee but I wasn't aware of that story. Perhaps I can begin to imagine the self-deception that must have been involved... Crazy stuff.

jkb

I think moderation can work for other people. And I don't think Moderation Management should be bashed. If it works for some people that is great.

I, however, do not wish to engage in all the work it would take for me to possibly be able to moderate. A close friend of mine does drink "moderately" after having health problems due to her drinking. Every night she buys a 3-glass bottle of wine and drinks the 3 glasses. She never drinks more than that. Would that work for me...nope.

So, just because I don't want to or cant learn how to moderate does not mean all people are like me. Maybe it is different for them. Just my opinion

Jess

Dee74

I apologise longbeachone if you felt 'scolded' - that was never my intention.

I may be a moderator...but I'm a member too, and I have opinions...you're free to agree,..or not

I'm sorry we seem to fundamentally disagree on this one - whatever else might be involved, I still don't see the relevance to moderation.

but...back to the thread

D

fini

i went to the MM website years ago, in one of my last-ditch attempts to be able to keep drinking and have control. i went, of course, because i couldn't. control, that is.
and i thought okay, moderation management, wow, i can learn how to 'manage', and it means i can keep drinking. wow, ALRIGHT!!!

within a minute or two of reading, i came to the part about not drinking for three months at all before starting the actual moderating, and i remember bursting into absolute dispairing laughter at the idiotic suggestion. if i could not drink for three months, then i could not drink for forever.

the absolute tenacity, though, at trying to hang on to the stuff!
the never-ending "don't leave don't leave oh please don't leave i'll be better i'll try harder just as long as i get to have you still!"

what a relief to be out of that place.

mick3580

Isn't, by definition, a person who can moderate his or her drinking, a non alcoholic? It's pointless to discuss whether alcoholics can moderate their drinking, because people that can moderate their drinking aren't alcoholics.

LadyBlue0527

Agreed. Imagine this, my last attempt at moderation here was the rule:

I will only drink on Friday and Saturday. On special occasions during the week but only at the very most once a month. As long as I can stay within those day limits (note I didn't say amounts) then I could continue to drink. This is my last attempt at moderation. If I screw this up that's it, no more, nada.

Well, here I am. How humorous is that, an alcoholic threatening themselves with sobriety, knowing that if the rules weren't followed that would be THE END OF DRINKING and that STILL didn't work. How ridiculous is that?

I only wish I knew what complete sobriety could be because I wouldn't have worked so hard to keep it going for as many years that I did.

Latte

I know why I drank and looking back I know when I began doing it alcoholically. Bottom line, I'm an alcoholic. I don't know if you (general you) are, but if you say you are, then you are. Principals before personalities.

I stopped trying to find reasons why I was and just found a way to live without drinking so I could be the person I wanted to be.

jaynie04

Moderation, or attempts at, for me, were excruciating.

I have more memories of nursing that albatross, so conscious of the level in that glass, sp bloody exhausting.

Knowing it is no longer an option for me has freed up my mind for so much more...

deeker

I found this to be a most helpful explanation. Chapter Dr Opinion.

Big Book On Line - Table of Contents

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