How much is alcoholism driven by underlying issues?
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Which came first, the chicken or the egg sort of thing. People drink because they like the effect. The effect might be to bring on that warm fuzzy, or blot out some intolerable situation, either might be desirable. Sometimes we might need some sort of excuse to cover the real reason.
Most if not all the alcoholics I have met, myself included, have pursued the idea that some outside issue is the cause of our problem drinking. Much therapy is based on the idea that if you get all your issues talked out, your drinking problem will dissappear. And of course this will be true if the issue is the cause of the drinking.
But the real alcoholic will make all kinds of changes, get rid of the wife, change towns, jobs, social circle, drinks, try medications for various disorders, etc etc and at the end of it all will still be drinking.
The experts tell me this is because alcoholism is a brain disease, not a circumstantial condition. You either have a disease or you don't.
In my experience then, problem drinkers may recover if their issues are dealt with. Alcoholics will recover if their alcoholism is dealt with, which in turn creates the circumstances in which they can successfully deal with their other issues.
There is no doubt in my mind that external circumstances can make alcoholism worse, they can exascerbate the problem, but they don't cause it.
Most if not all the alcoholics I have met, myself included, have pursued the idea that some outside issue is the cause of our problem drinking. Much therapy is based on the idea that if you get all your issues talked out, your drinking problem will dissappear. And of course this will be true if the issue is the cause of the drinking.
But the real alcoholic will make all kinds of changes, get rid of the wife, change towns, jobs, social circle, drinks, try medications for various disorders, etc etc and at the end of it all will still be drinking.
The experts tell me this is because alcoholism is a brain disease, not a circumstantial condition. You either have a disease or you don't.
In my experience then, problem drinkers may recover if their issues are dealt with. Alcoholics will recover if their alcoholism is dealt with, which in turn creates the circumstances in which they can successfully deal with their other issues.
There is no doubt in my mind that external circumstances can make alcoholism worse, they can exascerbate the problem, but they don't cause it.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Alcoholism is more then simply defined as another type of brain (physical) illness, is my understanding. Alcoholism is an unique illness of my entire psyche - and as such requires an essential change and revolution of my psyche for my being able to realise and sustain a recovery and become recovered and healed from my alcoholism. Not cured however. 
For me as well, my psyche also essentially includes a distinct spiritual essence - my soul my distinct personality - so my alcoholism has spiritual consequences and responsibilities along with its physical realities and so this even more uniquely defines the totality and pervasive illness of my alcoholism.
For me as well, my psyche also essentially includes a distinct spiritual essence - my soul my distinct personality - so my alcoholism has spiritual consequences and responsibilities along with its physical realities and so this even more uniquely defines the totality and pervasive illness of my alcoholism.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
Alcoholism is more then simply defined as another type of brain (physical) illness, is my understanding. Alcoholism is an unique illness of my entire psyche - and as such requires an essential change and revolution of my psyche for my being able to realise and sustain a recovery and become recovered and healed from my alcoholism. Not cured however.
For me as well, my psyche also essentially includes a distinct spiritual essence - my soul my distinct personality - so my alcoholism has spiritual consequences and responsibilities along with its physical realities and so this even more uniquely defines the totality and pervasive illness of my alcoholism.
For me as well, my psyche also essentially includes a distinct spiritual essence - my soul my distinct personality - so my alcoholism has spiritual consequences and responsibilities along with its physical realities and so this even more uniquely defines the totality and pervasive illness of my alcoholism.
I couldn't agree more Robby, but the medical experts, at least in public, cannot acknowledge the spiritual without commiting professional suicide. The particular expert I am referring to explained the brain disease as something that can be seen on the MRI. Likewise there is a scientific explanation for the phenomenon of craving. He further stated that the disease is genetic, but envoronmental factors also play a part. In the interest of brevity I didn't explain further, rather I wanted to make the point that one either has the disease or one doesn't. It's not a matter of choice.
The remedy(for the hopeless case) on the other hand is almost impossible to explain in scientific terms because it is spiritual in nature. He stated that what was required was a "conversion experience" which to date there was no medical means to bring about. He referred to AA's spiritual experience as being the most effective means of recovery, also stating that that was definately AA's field of expertise and not his.
Jung had the same problem. His personal belief was the same as yours and mine, but he had to be very careful about what he said professionally.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Columbia University, among other prestigious institutions, has recently added a spirituality component to the curriculum at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, and in its masters program in Social Work.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,822
My take is that the word 'alcoholic' should only be used as an adjective to describe a type of beverage , one that contains alcohol.
The addiction to and physical dependence on alcohol is stopped when the consumption ceases and the residual alcohol in the body has been metabolised.
To resume consumption and likely become addicted to and physically dependent on alcohol ,again, is a willful act. Humans do not act without intention. Bodily functions are not willful acts, opening a bottle and consuming its contents is a willful act.
The addiction to and physical dependence on alcohol is stopped when the consumption ceases and the residual alcohol in the body has been metabolised.
To resume consumption and likely become addicted to and physically dependent on alcohol ,again, is a willful act. Humans do not act without intention. Bodily functions are not willful acts, opening a bottle and consuming its contents is a willful act.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 86
Originally Posted by UnixBer
I used to think that drinking is just a means to have fun and explode with crazy funny things. But looking closely and being more honest with myself.. I do see that 95% what contributed to me turning to drink was underlying issues.
There was something about reality that I didn't want to meet sober. I'd do almost anything to avoid it, so I hid in the bottle. It gave me (false) courage, inspiration and energy. Scared of living sober, to clearly have to face with reality and my own emotional issues was what drove to me go to the bottle. It was difficult to admit this fact, and all the more easier to deny it and escape into a limboland of drinking.
As a child, I used to think that the world is unfair. The bad guy always wins etc. People have defects since birth and all that stuff. Now today that viewpoint is basically reversed. Now I think of the world as a fair place. Nothing but fair perhaps, no matter what happens with the world.
The remaining 5% to contribute to alcoholism could be the way alcohol is promoted by today's society and the many forms of adversing.
There was something about reality that I didn't want to meet sober. I'd do almost anything to avoid it, so I hid in the bottle. It gave me (false) courage, inspiration and energy. Scared of living sober, to clearly have to face with reality and my own emotional issues was what drove to me go to the bottle. It was difficult to admit this fact, and all the more easier to deny it and escape into a limboland of drinking.
As a child, I used to think that the world is unfair. The bad guy always wins etc. People have defects since birth and all that stuff. Now today that viewpoint is basically reversed. Now I think of the world as a fair place. Nothing but fair perhaps, no matter what happens with the world.
The remaining 5% to contribute to alcoholism could be the way alcohol is promoted by today's society and the many forms of adversing.
Unixber...I concur with your post in regards to my alcohol abuse being contributable to underlying issues as well as the lack of knowledge on how to cope with the most simple things. Who's fault was that it doesn't matter, it's my stuff 100@%. I'm either going to be accountable for my stuff or I'm not, period!
So, here I am with 16 years of sobriety and I know now the truth for me is that the alcohol had no more power over me than what I gave it. Because it was my "drug of choice" which ironically is what you here all the time. It was my preferred method of coping with my self-perceived flaws. It was what made me feel complete.
There are countless theories regarding addiction/s, pick one. If it keeps you sober its a great program. The program/s in short is nothing more that a way of life.
For me it's a spiritual life with my Creator, God, Source or whatever you choose as long as I continue to have a true desire to improve this connection life will get better by the day.
Love,
CS
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Gulf Coast, Florida USA
Posts: 5,731
I personally agree with AA's philosophy. I have a 3 fold illness of body, mind , spirit.
Body- When I drink it sets off the craving where I can not stop.
Mind- Before that is the mental obsession which sets off the craving to where I can not stop.
Spirit - Before the mental obsession is the thing that sets off the mental obsession. Some call it the Spiritual Malady.
My life was outwardly unmanageable obviously because of my drinking and drugging.
But even before that My life was inwardly unamanagable.
For me that condition was just like the Big Book says being restless, irritable and discontent. Having trouble with my personal relationships,Not being able to control my emotional behaviour.
Being a victim of depression and misery, feelings of uselessness, being filled with fear, being unhappy
My inabilty to be of real service to others, Trying to run the show, living in self will, living like I was a tornado whipping through peoples lives....
I believe these are some of the symptoms of my spiritual malady. But what is the root of those troubles?.....
The BIG BOOK says that selfishness, self centeredness is the root of my troubles. I call it EGO. It drove me to all those symptoms I just mentioned....
Other material also mentions If I continue to act out on selfish, self centered motives I will continue to experience the symptoms of my spiritual malady....
And when I continue to experience those symptoms I will again be led to the obsession and seeking out the comfort I can get from a drink or drug, I will pick up and then the unsatiable craving will start again and I will not stop.
So the answer for me is to get down to the root of my troubles. How?
Some say The 12 steps. What ever you call it - counseling, therapy, self examination. I believe it is truly necessary to get down to the bottom of this inward unmanageability, to weed out these character defects, this selfishness. I believe when we do a thorough examination and keep in fit spiritual condition whether through the steps or some other way that the obsession rarely shows it's ugly head therefore we do not get to picking up the drink or drug.. The alcoholic voice as some would call it stops showing up. Or if it does it is easily suppressed.
Body- When I drink it sets off the craving where I can not stop.
Mind- Before that is the mental obsession which sets off the craving to where I can not stop.
Spirit - Before the mental obsession is the thing that sets off the mental obsession. Some call it the Spiritual Malady.
My life was outwardly unmanageable obviously because of my drinking and drugging.
But even before that My life was inwardly unamanagable.
For me that condition was just like the Big Book says being restless, irritable and discontent. Having trouble with my personal relationships,Not being able to control my emotional behaviour.
Being a victim of depression and misery, feelings of uselessness, being filled with fear, being unhappy
My inabilty to be of real service to others, Trying to run the show, living in self will, living like I was a tornado whipping through peoples lives....
I believe these are some of the symptoms of my spiritual malady. But what is the root of those troubles?.....
The BIG BOOK says that selfishness, self centeredness is the root of my troubles. I call it EGO. It drove me to all those symptoms I just mentioned....
Other material also mentions If I continue to act out on selfish, self centered motives I will continue to experience the symptoms of my spiritual malady....
And when I continue to experience those symptoms I will again be led to the obsession and seeking out the comfort I can get from a drink or drug, I will pick up and then the unsatiable craving will start again and I will not stop.
So the answer for me is to get down to the root of my troubles. How?
Some say The 12 steps. What ever you call it - counseling, therapy, self examination. I believe it is truly necessary to get down to the bottom of this inward unmanageability, to weed out these character defects, this selfishness. I believe when we do a thorough examination and keep in fit spiritual condition whether through the steps or some other way that the obsession rarely shows it's ugly head therefore we do not get to picking up the drink or drug.. The alcoholic voice as some would call it stops showing up. Or if it does it is easily suppressed.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by dwtbd
My take is that the word 'alcoholic' should only be used as an adjective to describe a type of beverage , one that contains alcohol.
The addiction to and physical dependence on alcohol is stopped when the consumption ceases and the residual alcohol in the body has been metabolised.
To resume consumption and likely become addicted to and physically dependent on alcohol ,again, is a willful act. Humans do not act without intention. Bodily functions are not willful acts, opening a bottle and consuming its contents is a willful act.
The addiction to and physical dependence on alcohol is stopped when the consumption ceases and the residual alcohol in the body has been metabolised.
To resume consumption and likely become addicted to and physically dependent on alcohol ,again, is a willful act. Humans do not act without intention. Bodily functions are not willful acts, opening a bottle and consuming its contents is a willful act.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by dwtbd
I think perhaps you have a fundamental understanding of what a willful act is.
Bob Newhart-Stop It - YouTube
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,822
As I can not currently access the link and haven't seen the content( which is too bad, cause I think BN is great!)
My point is that for as long as I chose to accept the ISM part
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. So perhaps I was not lying then, but if I adopt that mindset again , I will be.
My point is that for as long as I chose to accept the ISM part
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. So perhaps I was not lying then, but if I adopt that mindset again , I will be.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Originally Posted by dwtbd
My point is that for as long as I chose to accept the ISM part
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. .
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. .
no way was i powerless, no way could i not exercise choice, control, agency, decisions...
the fact that i tried that, went that route for many years and kept returning to drinking despite my conviction that i had all the power...uh...what was i to do with that?
ah, i just wasn't committed enough. ah, i just was too weak. ah, i just really wanted an excuse. ah, maybe i was just stuuuuupi.
i never accepted any premise i was powerless, or that any of it was at some level beyond my control. and on an on i struggled.
i still struggled with those things in my mind for a couple of years after i quit drinking. my own experience was contradictory to my belief system, so what was i to do? and why would this be so? and would i attempt to keep forcing my experience into my belief-system-box or would i dare to be a bit more curious and less automatically dismissive and condemning of a different "belief system" which actually matched my own experience much more closely?
ion other words, i didn't accept or believe the "ism" part til a few years after i had quit.
hm...not trying to convince you of anything, and if you hadn't used a 'we' in your post, i would likely have not been spurred to write at all
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by dwtbd
I think perhaps you have a fundamental understanding of what a willful act is.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 86
Originally Posted by fini
funny...my experience was pretty much the exact opposite.
no way was i powerless, no way could i not exercise choice, control, agency, decisions...
the fact that i tried that, went that route for many years and kept returning to drinking despite my conviction that i had all the power...uh...what was i to do with that?
ah, i just wasn't committed enough. ah, i just was too weak. ah, i just really wanted an excuse. ah, maybe i was just stuuuuupi.
i never accepted any premise i was powerless, or that any of it was at some level beyond my control. and on an on i struggled.
i still struggled with those things in my mind for a couple of years after i quit drinking. my own experience was contradictory to my belief system, so what was i to do? and why would this be so? and would i attempt to keep forcing my experience into my belief-system-box or would i dare to be a bit more curious and less automatically dismissive and condemning of a different "belief system" which actually matched my own experience much more closely?
ion other words, i didn't accept or believe the "ism" part til a few years after i had quit.
no way was i powerless, no way could i not exercise choice, control, agency, decisions...
the fact that i tried that, went that route for many years and kept returning to drinking despite my conviction that i had all the power...uh...what was i to do with that?
ah, i just wasn't committed enough. ah, i just was too weak. ah, i just really wanted an excuse. ah, maybe i was just stuuuuupi.
i never accepted any premise i was powerless, or that any of it was at some level beyond my control. and on an on i struggled.
i still struggled with those things in my mind for a couple of years after i quit drinking. my own experience was contradictory to my belief system, so what was i to do? and why would this be so? and would i attempt to keep forcing my experience into my belief-system-box or would i dare to be a bit more curious and less automatically dismissive and condemning of a different "belief system" which actually matched my own experience much more closely?
ion other words, i didn't accept or believe the "ism" part til a few years after i had quit.
I too could not except that I was powerless, for me it just gave me another opportunity to blame someone or something else for my situation.
With that being said...the choice to stop drinking was mine and mine only! I whole heartedly believe in free will choice.
Do I believe that God is helping me with this? Absolutely, however I do not believe that he will fix these self-perceived flaws against my will. It's still my choice to be willing to have or to seek the desire for this change of thinking for it to occur.
Is my relationship with God strong? It's getting stronger by the day :-)
We have a choice :-)
Love,
CS
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NC
Posts: 1,462
The first step in AA say "admitted we were powerless" not "are powerless". I think the premise of it is that we realized we could not quit on our own, through pure willpower. That we needed help from higher power, other alcoholics, etc. to stay sober. By admitting you are powerless over alcohol, you actually regain some power. That's my understanding of it. It doesn't mean we're powerless to do anything about our addiction.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 1,344
I see addiction as a body thing, the motive is that it feels good. It is not difficult to train animals to become addicts, lot of tests done on that. I would even say some ambitious single-minded strongly motivated dog training, creates animals with addictive minds which is sad and unfair.
When I choose to give in to my addiction disregarding the cost to myself and my surroundings points in my view to a deeper and more complex problem. A body addiction took over my live because I had other problems.
I think many of the issues that led me to excessive use of alcohol as young, are not an issue to me to day.
I am not saying I do not have trickers today also but they are just different.
I try to notice them, and I have seen some of them the last couple of weeks, just let them come and feel them and do not act on them. They are in good company :-)
I see it as rather unfair to my younger self to say I should have seen this earlier and not wasted that much time and energy on alcohol it was a different situation.
I am not making dramatical changes to my live now I will go the journey and see what comes up and what I need to deal with in the coming time.
I am of course dependent on that deeker sends me a song and some pictures in the 24 hour thread at least for some time to come.
Thanks deeker
When I choose to give in to my addiction disregarding the cost to myself and my surroundings points in my view to a deeper and more complex problem. A body addiction took over my live because I had other problems.
I think many of the issues that led me to excessive use of alcohol as young, are not an issue to me to day.
I am not saying I do not have trickers today also but they are just different.
I try to notice them, and I have seen some of them the last couple of weeks, just let them come and feel them and do not act on them. They are in good company :-)
I see it as rather unfair to my younger self to say I should have seen this earlier and not wasted that much time and energy on alcohol it was a different situation.
I am not making dramatical changes to my live now I will go the journey and see what comes up and what I need to deal with in the coming time.
I am of course dependent on that deeker sends me a song and some pictures in the 24 hour thread at least for some time to come.
Thanks deeker
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by dwtbd
My point is that for as long as I chose to accept the ISM part
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. So perhaps I was not lying then, but if I adopt that mindset again , I will be.
coupled with the idea that I was, or that 'we' all are, powerless to stop the addiction to alcohol, I was powerless and purposefully so , it was a great excuse and 'reason' why I was not responsible for it and could then continue the addiction for most of my adult life, to this point.
I see now that that idea was incorrect, and I now see why/how I accepted a false premise based on authority. And I am pretty sure part of that apparent acceptance was because I wanted it to be true, that my addiction was at some level 'beyond' my control. So perhaps I was not lying then, but if I adopt that mindset again , I will be.
However, If that had worked for me, I would not be here nor would I ever feel a need to talk to another alcoholic.
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