Boleo

You seem to think (mistake #1) that Zen is about eternal life. To some degree, it is, but a Zen Master would say "We don't need to go that far in our thinking".

Zen is more or less living in the now (as Eckhart Tolle would say). Zen is a way of life that does not involve thinking, judging or any form of expectations. To truly understand Zen, you have to give up all understanding. Thus the saying:

"Open mouth - already wrong".

Threshold

I never got the feeling that zen was ABOUT eternal life, but I thought that eternal life was part of it, like I said, I know very little about zen and yup, that was an assumption I made.

Living in the now is very much a part of Pantheism as well, but Pantheism recognizes that as mortal and finite creatures, attachments and expectations have a place in things. the Universe has no agenda, but we have an agenda.

Zencat

"If you meet a Buddha on the road, kill him." ~ Zen Master, Linji.

“Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes.” ― Alan Wilson Watts

What I get from Zen is how turn off the mind and feel more connected to the present moment. In relation to recovery, I find "letting go" (detachment) of harmful behaviors (addiction) and thoughts (the AV) makes for a more peaceful transition to a life sans alcohol. IMO, To "let go" of alcoholism removes any struggle or resistance that could cause difficulty in recovery.

A Zen Koan may help all to understand Boleo's Koan. Good one BTW Boleo.
A monk asked Master Haryo, "What is the way?"
Haryo said, "An open-eyed man falling into the well."

UnixBer

Aren't there many sects and traditions around zen and zen buddhism? And not just one, although they all one follow that "without thought/judgment" - way. All those sects may have some individual hints to them, like seeing the world in somewhat differently from the others.

Imo it is good to have variance in these kinds of things and also very good for people to ask questions, and not just accept everything at face value. If asking questions is thoughtless, where do we learn from? This is one bit of wisdom that may not concern Zen particularly.

Since it was said that it is a way of life, it seems appealing to me.
But believing everything and taking everything for granted, no matter what zen master tells you that or where you read it from... it is still in the end, your own task to make out your own belief and version of what is right. I think.

Threshold

Zencat, thanks for NOT clearing that up! It helps.

I'm totally with you on the non attachment to drinking...not struggling with it. Struggling just kept me involved with drinking.

Here is me not thinking about the white bear....My house smells SO good right now from these cookies...

Off to polish my rice bowl

Threshold

Unixber....for some reason this came to mind

In the Beginning (Grahme Edge)

First Man:
I think...
I think I am.
Therefore I am!
I think...

Establishment:
Of course you are, my bright little star...
I've miles and miles of files
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
And now to suit our great computer
You're magnetic ink!

First Man:
I'm more than that
I know I am...
At least, I think I must be

Inner Man:
There you go, man
Keep as cool as you can
Face piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe
That you perceive
The web they weave...
And keep on thinking free

UnixBer

That's inspiring Threshold. And Zencat made Zen a little bit more clear too. I didn't know what a koan was.

Off-topic: it is not Zen but I like playing Go (the japanese chess). There are many legends and stories just around that very game. Like some Go-master could see the flow of the stones and the melody of the universe in a single game or board setting. I guess those kinds of things can happen too..

Boleo

You're right. I only got into Zen because it helped me understand Taoism. Then I found Taoism helped me understand Zen. Taoism, Buddhism and Zen are so closely related that it's hard to say where one stops and another begins. Zen is definitely the new kid on the block historically speaking and both Taoism and Buddhism can be traced back to the 5th century BC. Zen takes the "We think not" aspect of life even further than the other two. I could not even begin to talk about Zen without a lot of Taoism and Buddhism terminology to start with.

When we look deep into 12 step recovery, we see that living life without judgement and expectations plays an important role in it as well. The concept of detachment is essential in living free of thoughts of drinking and drugging.

"Detachment is the highest of all principles, the most noble of all virtues and the only truly pure motive for doing anything."
(Meister Eckhardt)

UnixBer

Ok, so Taoism is a deep subject with a vast terminology. That's always nice to know. Taoism gives the image of a wise Taoist priest doing sumi paintings and glaring at moonlight. Don't know anything about it though.

To the OP (Legs), hopefully you'll find a balance and choose your beliefs yourself and not by default (as plenty of people do).

Boleo

Now that you mention it, there is another thread like this one:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/secular-12-step-recovery/151021-alternative-god.html