CrimsonKing

I'm atheist. About as atheist as you can get. hehe. I don't rely on faith to make good choices, I rely on the trust my family puts in me to do the right thing.

GroundhogDay

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I don't think Satan has power in the afterlife. It's just my belief that if we reject the Holy Spirit, we are separated from God in the afterlife just like Satan and his minions.

I think religion, in general, is just man's way of trying to understand his place in the universe. It's just as logical to believe that the universe was created by a supernatural being as not. I loved the Men in Black tiny universe hanging on the collar of the cat! Who knows.

As for Christianity, I must admit my choice is largely a function of my upbringing. I try not to torture myself about that.

All of this is relevant, IMO. As I said before, without my beliefs, I don't think I could get out of bed in the morning, much less stay sober.

GroundhogDay

I must admit that is not enough motivation for me. My husband has been very tolerant of my drinking over the years, but he has also been supportive since I quit. I am happy that I can make him happier now.

UnixBer

Yep I suppose I understand what you mean. In my belief the universe kind of comes out of nothing. Maybe quite close to that MIB collar thingy.
Christianity doesn't work for me. In fact, I agree more with Indians than with mainstream religion. And these are all personal choices.

It's just that in my view, I wanted freedom and truth. And I've learned that the truth isn't always sweet. But it's the truth, nevertheless. Unbound by christian beliefs I've always somehow secretly felt more "free" as a kind of atheist, and I think some people prefer that kind of viewpoint. It's individual of course. So in my opinion, there is no option of 'falling down' like fallen angels. Instead, there is life... in one form or another... Thanks for your interesting and creative response. This is an interesting subject.

Boleo

I agree. Spiritual based recovery requires spiritual growth and spiritual growth requires "some sort of spiritual guidance". Where that guidance comes from can be found in any number of religions, programs or ways of living.

The important thing is that we must start trusting some power greater than ourselves. Keep in mind, "Some sort of spiritual guidance" covers a lot of territory and can include something as generic as "What ever runs the Universe".

UnixBer

That's an interesting idea. I still find that the concept of a higher power can/could be misleading. Let's take a look at zen - phisolophy.

Zen is a spiritual viewpoint and according to it there is no power greater than you. This means that according to that belief-system there is no power external to you. A higher power, would have to be at least an aspect of yourself. If it were external (such as a God that is separate from you) it wouldn't be a power, according to Zen.

I find this philosophy fascinating, buddhism as well and many others. Atheists also mostly seem to believe that there is no power greater than themselves. Maybe they are right. A christian may think God is all around, and maybe they are right. So everyone gets something right possibly by chance even. It's interesting to think about.

kab

hi leggs how r u?hope u r well.have faith in someone or something it will help you stay sober,my faith is in jesus.he helps me.mainly people disagree ,religions or not,,we all have free will.the main thing i believe is that we are all gods creations,,,and i love u.i will pray for you to help you find your way in life.i will pray for you so that you will stay sober.

Boleo

Zen is an offshoot of Chán Buddhism which itself is a blend of Buddhism and Taoism. Zen embraces the idea that all attributes and quality in general, are more or less delusional judgement. To call something "greater than" is a form of judgement that assigns an attribute to something and is therefore delusional.

However, all power is contained within the Tao. To claim one's self as having equal power to the Tao is assigning the self power, which is not only a form of judgement, but it starts off with the false premise that the "self" even exists in the first place.

To use Zen to debate/judge/compare any power greater, weaker than or separate from any other power automatically falls outside of boundary's of Zen philosophy.

Now if you want to analyze or debate this subject, Existentialism would be the appropriate arena to start in. Particularly the existential and phenomenological explorations of Martin Heidegger .

nfijules

I dont believe in organized religion myself. I do have a higher power - I choose to call God though. I am very spriritual - without God/HP, I will go back out. I have proven this. If I dont stay spiritually fit, I will go back out. I dont care who your God/Hp is, it could be a he, she, or an it....as long as I dont ever think I am God myself...things will be just fine. It works for me.

UnixBer

So... is it that having a power greater than or higher than yourself not being Zen at all? (because it is comparing, giving a measure to something, thus more or less delusional). I don't know that much about buddhism or Zen but I don't think it matters what buddhism etc. it came out from. These are all man-made systems after all. And people tend to make mistakes and change things to their own preferences.

Why would giving attribute to something fall out of Zen philosophy? In Zen, it is seen as delusional, a problem of the human ego. Isn't that at least part of Zen philosophy? I'd think so.

Tao. I think the word means "path" or something similar? Yet it's a concept I don't get, at least not at this moment. Would you Boleo like to tell something about it, since it sounds interesting?

And back to the issue. The idea above is not to compare powers or self as having any certain power. It is a statement that there would exist no such external power (here used the words 'greater than' because it is the way it is laid out by AA etc.). It is not comparison, simply a statement.

One thing I've read about Zen is that it is our attachments to things that cause us our suffering. And an attachment to zen is an attachment as any other, I guess. Heh.

It would be interesting to hear something more about Zen in this thread. There's a big variety of different viewpoints and it's fantastic.

Boleo

If you think you are going to tell me something about Zen -

DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!

Threshold

Um...I think that poster asked to hear MORE about zen.

caboblanco

you guys aren't being very zen

Boleo

Somebody missed the elephant in the living room.

Threshold

I'm not zen, I'm a Pantheist.

For me the Universe is the Ultimate Reality.

For sobriety's sake, my HP is sobriety itself. WWSD?

Works for me so far.

I believe I am mortal and finite thus I have an agenda...to keep myself alive in an often dangerous world. Thus, I make judgments, priorities, am gifted with desires, and emotions that assist me in all this. I don't understand how zen and reality go together.

Some people believe there is something immortal in them, so it makes sense in that operational reality.

Threshold

Lol, I certainly missed it, I have NO idea what this is referring to. I think things are over my head...I better stick to baking cookies today.

UnixBer

I don't know either if Zen specifically emphasizes afterlife or not, since I'm yet not that accustomed to it. But I have a hunch that this may be the case. It may have to do with those meditation practises.

Also.. I don't think that I'm a pantheist in the matter that I actually believe that there is something immortal in human. Yet I am mortal. The body is mortal. The brain is mortal. I think the mind is immortal, or something like that. Some might call it a soul. But I think I'll call it the mind. Along this belief is that once a person dies, they carry all their memory (without their physical brain) with them, and they are still in essence, the very same person, but having had to evacuate the body.

I missed the elephant obviously.

Boleo

In plain English "Don't even think about it!" means - Don't you dare do it!.



In Zen speak it means "You're the most thougtless person I know - Keep up the good work!"

Threshold

I know very little about zen, but I think I guessed there was an idea of immortality because to me it makes no sense to not get attached to anything is this is all there is. So that totally sprang from my own brain (yup, the physical one!)

I've sort of decided that there must be different realities (actual ones) for different people. The idea, teaching, experience of an after life is so prevalent, I doubt it's simply based on wishful thinking. I think that for some folks it is real.

But I think for some of us, this is it. Our eternal life is that our matter and energy remain part of the go round. Our consciousness is a function of our physical brains and when that dies, our consciousness goes with it.

I've had a near death experience and I still believe that.

Even as a kid, when some movie or TV show had someone trying to do magic or get some elixir that would give them eternal life...I couldn't understand why. The fact that THIS is it for me motivates me to make the most of it.

Threshold

Ah, cause if it makes sense..it's not zen!

well, zen makes no sense to me, probably even if I did 'understand' it as on some soul level...that is beyond words...

which is how I understand Pantheism. It just is...for me...it IS.

If I had to explain it to someone...to whom it is not...then for them, it is not...