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Some views on abstinence....

Old 05-14-2004, 05:04 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Bluto

Originally Posted by bluto
Dan
It is important for you to understand that making personal attacks does not make for productive discussion. I sincerely doubt that you are going to have "fun" with me. I'm way to knowledgeable for that. I've had many years in AA and I am very well read on the religious aspects of the program and there is very little about the first 164 pages of the Big Book that I don't know allot about. I still attend meetings and I've had everything but the kitchen sink thrown at me. I've heard and responded to almost every type of question and argument about the Big Book, AA History and the 12 steps. I've done my homework. Fire away. Let's keep things civil.

Bluto have a good day and hope all is well with you...I am not going to fight..I respect this sight and all these people to much...AA isnt the only way to sobriety although its what I like...my dad quit on his own...you seem to want to fight and I am not going to, one thing to me is quite apparent you are bitter about something....and I dont know why...its probaly none of my business.... it could be past wounds,self righteousnes cause you clawed your own way out of addiction,or your still using....but something inside you is full of anger and I am at a loss for why but if you hang around here long enough one of the SBRRCV.COM 'ers will eventually find out whats up..so dont go away...we love you....steve
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Old 05-14-2004, 06:25 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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these funny humans!

they:

want clean lungs,
--- yet adore tobacco
want to improve one’s self
----yet watch TV football
want to have a lean body
----yet have another dessert
want to fund an IRA
----yet buy a lotto ticket
want to be a loving father
---yet lose their temper
want to be a faithful wife
---yet follow the seducer
want to be clean & sober
---yet pick up again & again

I see the world act on:
love , generosity, hate, sympathy, revenge, compassion, jealousy, boredom, sacrifice,
and belief

and you wonder why i
cannot act
on
the irrationality
of
my
drinking?

I see you.

another funny human!


love
mackat
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Old 05-14-2004, 06:50 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bluto
"I think it is important to other newcomers to understand that the AA program really isnt a quitting drinking program. It is about religious conversion."

" There is no mention of abstinence anywhere in the 12 steps."
I also think it is important for newcomers to know the truth about A.A.

here are a few quotes off the top of my head from the Steps concerning abstinance,

“First, Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions. Second, to get sober and to stay sober, you don't have to swallow all of Step Two right now “
Step Two
12 x 12 pg. 26



“More sobriety brought about by the admission of alcoholism and by attendance at a few meetings is very good indeed, but it is bound to be a far cry from permanent sobriety and a contented, useful life.�
Step Three
12 x 12 pg. 39-40


“this emerging from isolation
through the open and honest sharing of our terrible burden of guilt, brings us
to a resting place where we may prepare ourselves for the following Steps toward a full and meaningful sobriety.�
Step Five
12 x 12 pg. 62



“Still goaded by sheer necessity, we reluctantly come to grips with
those serious character flaws that made problem drinkers of us in the first
place, flaws which must be dealt with to prevent a retreat into alcoholism once again.�
Step Seven
12 x 12 pg. 73




“Someone who knew what he was talking about once remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress. How heartily we A.A.'s can agree with him, for we know that the pains of drinking had to come before sobriety, and emotional turmoil before serenity.�

Step Ten
12 x 12 pg. 94

and a quote from the AA preamble.

. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

I dont feel the need to go through it all with a fine tooth comb or this post would be very long indeed, if you feel after attending AA for 20 years that it's not about abstinance, then I wish you luck.

anyone interested in what AA really is, please feel free to go to the AA forum and look through the AA literature thread.

Jay
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:19 AM
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I just want to see if I can still post here...
Mornin'!
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:22 AM
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Goog Morning.

Hey..uh? Who is Bluto? and why can't I see any of his/her posts?
Another figment of our imaginations? I must have missed something.
Wassup?

Rudiger
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Old 05-15-2004, 06:25 AM
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You know rud, a little expurgation...
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Old 05-15-2004, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDan
You know rud, a little expurgation...
Or an abreaction....based on extreme acerbity....steve
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Old 05-15-2004, 09:19 AM
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Just another few thoughts.....


I am a food addict/recovering bulimic... and I have to "take the cork out of the bottle" every day without letting it send me into relapse.

Now... being multi addicted... I apply those same recovery principles to my other addictions. So.. over time I've come to recognize when I'm being compulsive... and know when I'm setting myself up to use. If I chose to ignore these signals and red flags... then I can lose my ability to choose around my addictions.

I personally believe that a person CAN learn to moderate themselves if the desire and the need are strong enough.... like in the case of being able to eat....but one also needs clean time in order to give themselves a point of reference.

There is no ONE right way... and any 12 step program I've been involved with invites me to "take what I like...and leave the rest!"

This more than anything told me that I have "CHOICE" in these matters... and that each of us could walk our path in our own unique way.

Now... I know what worked for me.... but I think it's incredibly presumptuous to think that what worked for me will work for everyone.

But... if the 12 step framework hadn't been in place... and if there were no long term abstinent members to feed me the solutions at whatever pace I could absorb them... I would probably be dead by now.

Therefore... I can see why the programs come from a position of abstinence. We need a baseline to loft from.

And... of course... there are those moments when one's HP simply removes the compulsion....

Those are truly blessed events.
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Old 05-15-2004, 09:58 AM
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Your loved here,,,isnt that a good feeling!!!!

I dont doubt what your saying is quite true for you. Life in this human experience is constructed in such a way that its not uncommon that we struggle with many problems at the same time. I think tradeing one problem for another or juggeling problems to justify another is the trickey question we must resolve in our own heads with help from a professional. Ultimately you may have many issues but you are one person and if that one person is moving towards a healthy place evenutally all the problems will get solved. Hopefully your working yourself towards a healthy place. I am not a proponent of moderation or solving one problem with another problem but then again Im not a professional counselor,and these comments are only that of a laymen. I would think that it would be better to isolate each problem and deal with it in order of its potential ability to cause the most harm. It may be that each one will take a different approach and that probably wont be drinking. Its something that to me you need to see somoene about who is trained in dealing with multiple issues at the same time. When we are under attack from our problems sometimes we try these controlled burns.....to cut a fire line so as to mediate what we percieve is the main fire...but when you play with fire you usually end up getting burned.....main thing is we love you here and you wont be judged...only loved...please keep coming back....steve

P.S. Hope this made some sense because my teenage daughter and four of her friends were here last night filming a video homework assignment for 4 hours......
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Old 05-15-2004, 04:54 PM
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A house full of teenagers does have an effect on our brain cells, doesn't it steve?! I think bluto got extirpated, which is a step beyond expurgated.

Your point is good, bikewench--there are some compulsive behaviors where true abstinence wouldn't be an option. We are trying to 'abstain' from the compulsion to overdo the behavior. That is harder to define, just as moderation is hard to define and stick to.

Using abstinence as a baseline, even Moderation Management recommends a 30 day period of abstinence before trying controlled drinking, and they provide guidelines for what 'moderate' means. Since I'm not real familiar with the program, I'm not sure how one would deal with frequently drinking more than the intended amount, or when one decides that moderation 'isn't working'. Audrey Kishline's story really proves nothing, except that she failed at both moderation and abstinence with tragic results. Doesn't prove that AA or MM are failures just because she didn't achieve her goals in either program.

The purpose of this thread was primarily to present, in their own words, the views of different recovery programs about abstinence. It's great to have other quotes from those programs, and the suggestions about other organizations. Discussions about the validity of the different groups seem like topics for new threads. It would be great if we could develop some of this information, with links, so that newcomers could compare. Then, perhaps if we avoid controversy, such threads could become sticky's for future reference....
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Old 05-15-2004, 08:44 PM
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The purpose of this thread was primarily to present, in their own words, the views of different recovery programs about abstinence. It's great to have other quotes from those programs, and the suggestions about other organizations. Discussions about the validity of the different groups seem like topics for new threads. It would be great if we could develop some of this information, with links, so that newcomers could compare. Then, perhaps if we avoid controversy, such threads could become sticky's for future reference....
good ideas don! rock on.
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Old 05-16-2004, 08:46 PM
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Hey Don,

I am new here, and I totally agree that putting up information about a comprehensive array of options that relate to ending addictions is a good idea!

Tristan
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Old 05-16-2004, 09:36 PM
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yes- good forum topic
important, especially for newcomers, is the understanding that every addictive substance is not equally addictive in every individual. There are many folk who can smoke an occassional cigarette. folk who can smoke crack a few times a year, socially use heroin, etc.
but each of these substances has a large percentage of users who, once started, cannot stop. And i don't know if there is any iron clad predictor of who is affected by what. I could do speed for weeks at a time, then not touch it for years. But i needed intervention about cocaine within months of my first use. go figure.
and then there are the more insidious patterns of use. Until the last few years of my drinking, i actually could be moderate for extended periods of time- looking back on it, it was almost like i crossed some line and then was unable to get back to moderation..by the end, i was truly powerless..
now that i see those patterns in myself, i cannot imagine teasing whatever trigger might be waiting for me.
I have also seen many many times over, sad and/or tragic results when recovering people had decided that they were one of the ones for whom moderation was appropriate.
And, i have to add, that my life, within the context of the program i practice, has been so fullfilling its every aspect: physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, that i intend to stay with it. Those who know me- in or out of NA/AA will tell you that i am truly high on life! what else could i possibly need?
mackat
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Old 05-16-2004, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tristan
Hey Don,

I am new here, and I totally agree that putting up information about a comprehensive array of options that relate to ending addictions is a good idea!

Tristan
Thanks, Tristan,
Some of the topics I've thought about, in addition to the views of abstinence, include (but are not limited to):
--the different views of addiction (disease, compulsive behavior, etc.-mackat's post is a good example); specific definitions of alcoholic/alcoholism.
--the role of spirituality and/or religion
--scientific basis
--jargon and core principles
--key practices and implementation: how you do it
--the role of meetings and support groups
--use of medication and acceptance of medical recovery practices
--organizational structure

To the extent that history of an organization can tell us something about it, some info about the founders or those providing the philosophical basis might be of interest.

There are a couple of obvious problems, but they can be resolved. The selection of quoted material may not satisfy some folks; the obvious solution is to find better quotes and add them as replies. The more the better! For example, when I quoted from the Big Book of AA, I may not have understood the different ways people interpret that program. But on a forum board those limitations are somewhat self-correcting.

And there may be a tendency to want to start debating the merits of each program with respect to one characteristic. An excellent thing to do...in a new thread.

If there are things you want to know about different programs, let us know. They might be great topics for a new thread.

Welcome to SR, and thanks for posting!
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Old 05-17-2004, 07:26 AM
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Wow! You have really given a lot of thought to this! Do you think that would actually work at this site? I haven't been around long enough to see if people here become threatened, or attack someone personally when they share their viewpoint, and it is not one that resonates with a 12 Step Program. Do you think that people here could engage in simple exchanges of ideas without becoming hostile? If so, let's do it! There is so much information out there now, it's great to share, and really investigate all options!

Tristan
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:09 AM
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Hi Tristan welcome!
There plenty of different viewpoints on how to achieve freedom from addiction here and for the most part everyone is tolerant of each others beliefs. When people start bashing a persons method of recovery is when there are problems. Check out some of the previos thread, Whew!
There's also a guidlines thread ( rules I guess ). The methods of recovery other than 12 step are discussed in the general alcohism and substance abuse sections and AA and NA have there own.
What works for you?
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Old 05-17-2004, 11:57 AM
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Actually, this being an open forum, A.A. is not excluded from it. Those that openly bash or try to sublimely undermine any program open the thread to much escalated debate. Hopefully in time, this will lessen and the childish debates may become mature discussions.

Back to the topic---

What is your view of abstinence?
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:16 PM
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Hey Don,

Why not post a thread that gives an overview of the various recovery options? Newcomers could get a synopsis at a glance, allowing them to start with the method that most closely reflects their values/beliefs.

Do you think the site moderators would go for it?

Tristan
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:31 PM
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I think that what gets the heated debates going is people, well meaning I'm sure, expressing opinions about methods of recovery that they have little or no knowledge of. At least that is what gets my goat. If we stick to what we know then everyone benefits and no one gets bashed. So Tristan welcome, what works for you?
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Old 05-17-2004, 01:35 PM
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Amen Niner!
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