Some views on abstinence....
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
Sal Army 12 Step
Hey Don,
I noticed those links didn't mention abstinence either and A.A. only uses the word according to the context of the program. So they really don't have a seperate definitive on what abstinence is. I also noticed that you chose to put other links instead of the A.A. link for A.A..
Since all these programs make an assumption that abstinence is the goal and then tell you you have to be abstinent first to understand it, it almost seems to be a simple conclusion that you either are or are not.
BTW: In this area the Salvation Army brings in an A.A. panel to do beginners meetings.
Abstinence really has to do with how each of us perceive it.
A program that starts declaring or demanding that everyone state it by wrote sounds a little cultish to me.
So the question is,
"What does abstinence mean to you?"
I noticed those links didn't mention abstinence either and A.A. only uses the word according to the context of the program. So they really don't have a seperate definitive on what abstinence is. I also noticed that you chose to put other links instead of the A.A. link for A.A..
Since all these programs make an assumption that abstinence is the goal and then tell you you have to be abstinent first to understand it, it almost seems to be a simple conclusion that you either are or are not.
BTW: In this area the Salvation Army brings in an A.A. panel to do beginners meetings.
Abstinence really has to do with how each of us perceive it.
A program that starts declaring or demanding that everyone state it by wrote sounds a little cultish to me.
So the question is,
"What does abstinence mean to you?"
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Actually, there is no question in this thread. I was just presenting the different views of the different groups, using information I found in various places. It seemed that a quote directly from the Big Book was apt. But to quote from the AA web site:
How A.A. Members Maintain Sobriety
A.A. is a program of total abstinence. Members simply stay away from one drink, one day at a time.
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/...a.cfm?pageid=1
I'm not sure that abstinence is a matter of perception. I think it's a pretty clearly defined term--you abstain. The only question, I guess, is how far into the future you've made that commitment.
Don S
How A.A. Members Maintain Sobriety
A.A. is a program of total abstinence. Members simply stay away from one drink, one day at a time.
http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/...a.cfm?pageid=1
I'm not sure that abstinence is a matter of perception. I think it's a pretty clearly defined term--you abstain. The only question, I guess, is how far into the future you've made that commitment.
Don S
Extremity
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere, out over that away
Posts: 183
I think a view is a perception and since the thread attempts to explain those views/perceptions, it seems appropriate to me to add our own views/perceptions. When I first started this whole experience (recovery as a journey) I thought much like you do in that it was a clearly defined word. However, as time has passed the word now conjures up many beliefs, views, stages, descriptions and perceptions. I realize now that they are all valid and I was wondering more on what yours and everybody else's views on abstinence were or have become.
Dotcom: I'm still interested in any more sources you find out about CRASH.
Dotcom: I'm still interested in any more sources you find out about CRASH.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
Originally Posted by Me2
I am not a big fan of Stanton Peele or Rational Recovery and I suggest anyone who embarks down that road use extreme caution and do your homework before you embark on that journey ( you can read the info on thier sites)....and Im not going to turn this into a big debate..this is only my oppinion....steve
Great thread folks!
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Remember her
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: laughing at my avatar
Posts: 1,636
Mog,
the link i posted has phone numbers you can call on it. granted they are long distance but thats all i have found. if you are interested you can give them a call. I have called them and got the basic info that you can volunteer to go, etc. they have inpatient and outpatient, tx for pregnant women and parenting women. eventually i will call for more info after school is out and i have some time to get involved in a program. hope ive helped.
dot
the link i posted has phone numbers you can call on it. granted they are long distance but thats all i have found. if you are interested you can give them a call. I have called them and got the basic info that you can volunteer to go, etc. they have inpatient and outpatient, tx for pregnant women and parenting women. eventually i will call for more info after school is out and i have some time to get involved in a program. hope ive helped.
dot
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Abstinence
I think abstinence means what it says. It clearly means to obstain from. Now when one comitts to abstinence I think there should be room to allow for growth. If we expect a person to comitt to abstinence and then they fall down,we should expect to pick them back up. This is most often best accomplished when we have accountability and transparency in our lives with others who are aware of our issues. There is strength in numbers and a family of recoverying people offers support. There are few lone rangers in recovery who do it alone,although there may be an exception to the rule. Alcohol to the addict is a dangerous substance and when we try alone with our own rationality we often get seduced when we arent interacting with others, for we all have blind spots. This would apply to most recovery systems in use today in my humble oppinion. There is a difference between someone who really has had it and wants to quit and someone with an addiction who hasnt accpeted they have a problem. Abstinence to them sounds to irrational,to hard,to insane,to unloveing,to judgemental,to uptight...or to whatever. They still may be in denial or inviolved in the big lie of alocohol..which is.."oh your o.k. you can handle it".Although you can discuss it with them they have set defense mechanisms around themselves to resist the logic and reason of how they are destroying thier lives. The battle inside them rages on...sanity and insanity...a time when will wants to choose the right answer but then is overcome by addiciton. Its the yo-yo effect up and down up and down....do I want to quit..or dont I. Usually for full blown addictions its something that comes crashing into our awareness and circumstances that drives us to the ground,batterd and torn. Then we say something dumb,like most of us have.." Well I think I may have a probelm". Until then we can play the game for a pretty long time. So for me I choose abstinence because that ends a lot of the issues right there. I dont have to debate harm reduction or moderation for there is no harm to come...Ive decided to abstain....and hope if others cant at least they can work themselves in that direction...Steve
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: laughing at my avatar
Posts: 1,636
i agree! good stuff! this is sort of off topic but its not. i think its just safer to abstain. im not married and recently found out i dont have hiv or any other std, so abstinence from sex is a fool proof method for me to stay healthy WITHOUT fears or worries that oops, i may have hiv. same goes with drugs for me, i cannot moderate, and abstinence leaves me with NO worries that i might have done too much or i might have just had a stroke. and abstinence from alcohol leaves me with no worries that i will get locked up again or have a car wreck or go back to using. it just seems like the safest, most worry free plan of action for me! i never REALLY thought about abstinence until i read this thread.
rock on!
rock on!
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by bluto
Don
I like what you had to say. I think it is important to other newcomers to understand that the AA program really isnt a quitting drinking program. It is about religious conversion.
I like what you had to say. I think it is important to other newcomers to understand that the AA program really isnt a quitting drinking program. It is about religious conversion.
Please explain to me...
Never mind! :redfinger
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Rubber nails at Wal Mart..1/2 price
God is the healer....and the 12 steps are from Him...sometimes bluto people just need time and grace and love...its not for us to meter out or judge...we are only His servants...and we just need to love others and keep that in mind..I rememeber once a Pastor I loved said about self...' Oh dont crucify yourself..cause you will use rubber nails....let Jesus crucify you....He was a carpenter"...and its so true...we as Christians can prove AA was founded on the God of the Bible easliy enough..if people will beleive facts...but we cant come on this site and act holier than thou...we need to be real...and share our beliefs in a respectful manner..not in pride or arrogance..some will believe and some wont..thats not what we were called to achieve....we need to have peace and love in our lives.....think of Jesus..God became a man and died on a cross.. and could have at anytime said.." You know Ive had it...lets just end it and try again"....calling a legion of angels to end it all..but He didnt...if He had that kind of patience we as Christians should have the same..steve
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Location: a spiritual vortex, Colorado
Posts: 844
Tradition 3; "The only requirement for A.A.membership is a desire to stop drinking."
tradition 5: "Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."
Bluto, my reading of the big book leads me to believe that i must practive abstinence- from the description of Dr Bob, p.xvi "He sobered, never to drink again..." to p. 23 "We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens...which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop" to p.30 "we alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control."
and then on p 34: "for those who are unable to drink moderately the question is how to stop altogether. We are assuming of course, that the reader desires to stop." all thru this book is this same consistent message.
seems this is the context of this book- the definition of the disease as allergy, the emphasis on not taking that first drink, all speak to abstinence. Does AA invoke a spiritual solution as the best means of not only preventing me from taking that first drink, but also as a method of dealing with past wreckage. Yes, it does. But the history of the early fellowship thru todays membership absolutely affirms that A)religiosity is not a necessity for membership and B) an alcoholic cannot ingest any alcohol.
Period.
mackat
tradition 5: "Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."
Bluto, my reading of the big book leads me to believe that i must practive abstinence- from the description of Dr Bob, p.xvi "He sobered, never to drink again..." to p. 23 "We are equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens...which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop" to p.30 "we alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control."
and then on p 34: "for those who are unable to drink moderately the question is how to stop altogether. We are assuming of course, that the reader desires to stop." all thru this book is this same consistent message.
seems this is the context of this book- the definition of the disease as allergy, the emphasis on not taking that first drink, all speak to abstinence. Does AA invoke a spiritual solution as the best means of not only preventing me from taking that first drink, but also as a method of dealing with past wreckage. Yes, it does. But the history of the early fellowship thru todays membership absolutely affirms that A)religiosity is not a necessity for membership and B) an alcoholic cannot ingest any alcohol.
Period.
mackat
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Bluto...this is for you!!! But I hope not!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Me2
I think abstinence means what it says. It clearly means to obstain from. Now when one comitts to abstinence I think there should be room to allow for growth. If we expect a person to comitt to abstinence and then they fall down,we should expect to pick them back up. This is most often best accomplished when we have accountability and transparency in our lives with others who are aware of our issues. There is strength in numbers and a family of recoverying people offers support. There are few lone rangers in recovery who do it alone,although there may be an exception to the rule. Alcohol to the addict is a dangerous substance and when we try alone with our own rationality we often get seduced when we arent interacting with others, for we all have blind spots. This would apply to most recovery systems in use today in my humble oppinion. There is a difference between someone who really has had it and wants to quit and someone with an addiction who hasnt accpeted they have a problem. Abstinence to them sounds to irrational,to hard,to insane,to unloveing,to judgemental,to uptight...or to whatever. They still may be in denial or inviolved in the big lie of alocohol..which is.."oh your o.k. you can handle it".Although you can discuss it with them they have set defense mechanisms around themselves to resist the logic and reason of how they are destroying thier lives. The battle inside them rages on...sanity and insanity...a time when will wants to choose the right answer but then is overcome by addiciton. Its the yo-yo effect up and down up and down....do I want to quit..or dont I. Usually for full blown addictions its something that comes crashing into our awareness and circumstances that drives us to the ground,batterd and torn. Then we say something dumb,like most of us have.." Well I think I may have a probelm". Until then we can play the game for a pretty long time. So for me I choose abstinence because that ends a lot of the issues right there. I dont have to debate harm reduction or moderation for there is no harm to come...Ive decided to abstain....and hope if others cant at least they can work themselves in that direction...Steve
Bluto AA is about abstinence..because of powerlessness...you cant indulge when you have no power over alcohol...Are you claiming you do????? If your an alcoholic I sure hope not cause if so your long road is just beggining...dude. steve
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Bluto check this out....
*
July 9, 2000, Sunday
National Desk
Advocate of Moderation for Heavy Drinkers Learns Sobering Lesson
By SAM HOWE VERHOVEK
After she founded a self-help program called Moderation Management seven years ago, Audrey Kishline became a national spokeswoman for the notion that problem drinkers could be taught to cut back without abstaining altogether. Groups like Alcoholics Anonymous that favor abstinence sharply criticized her and the book she wrote, ''Moderate Drinking: The New Option for Problem Drinkers.''
Now Ms. Kishline says she may well become a spokeswoman again, probably from behind prison bars.
Having pleaded guilty to two counts of vehicular homicide after a binge drinking episode last March during which she became so intoxicated she barely remembers climbing into her pickup truck, Ms. Kishline said through her lawyer that she has a new message: Moderation Management involves a lot of ''alcoholics covering up their problem.''
Ms. Kishline, 43, was driving the wrong way down an interstate freeway near Cle Elum, in central Washington, and smashed head-on into a car, killing Danny Davis, a 38-year-old electrician, and his 12-year-old daughter, LaSchell. Prosecutors said her blood-alcohol level was three times the legal limit.
With her plea last week, Ms. Kishline, who is in a treatment program in Oregon, is almost certainly headed to prison when she is sentenced on Aug. 11. The prosecutor is seeking four and a half years, although the maximum penalty is life.
Ms. Kishline declined a request for an interview, but in a statement she made with her lawyer at the Kittitas County Courthouse, she expressed profound remorse and described herself as ''a housewife and mother who woke up in a trauma unit of a hospital on March 25th to find out that I am the cause of the deaths of two innocent people.''
She added: ''I am giving this statement in a public forum because I pray that my story can touch at least one other alcoholic. When I failed at moderation, and then failed at abstinence, I was too full of embarrassment and shame to seek help. In self-pity I gave up and believed my nightly drinking at home could hurt no one but myself.''
Controversial through all the years that she wrote newspaper opinion-page pieces and appeared on television talk shows, Ms. Kishline has again inflamed a debate over moderation versus abstinence by offering her own calamitous story as an example of denial in action. And many of those who debated her in the past have seized on her experience to warn about what they call the delusion behind the idea that alcoholics can be taught to drink without harm.
''This dreadful tragedy might have been avoided if Ms. Kishline had come to this realization earlier,'' said Stacia Murphy, president of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, a nonprofit group based in New York City. ''Unfortunately, the disease of alcoholism, which is characterized by denial, prevented this from occurring. While this does not excuse Ms. Kishline's actions, it provides a harsh lesson for all of society.''
But far from depicting Ms. Kishline as an example of the failures of Moderation Management, people involved with the organization note that she had also tried abstinence and failed. And the worst incident occurred, in her own depiction, after she had joined Alcoholics Anonymous.
''Isn't it ironic that her most extreme case of intoxication came after she quit Moderation Management?'' said Stanton Peele, a board member of Moderation Management who is a psychologist in Morristown, N.J. ''A.A. didn't have the answers for her, either.''
Indeed, despite Ms. Kishline's troubles, the concept of Moderation Management was recently accepted as a treatment technique by the Smithers Addiction Treatment and Research Center in Manhattan.
Officials at Smithers, known for its treatment of celebrities like the baseball player Darryl Strawberry, have decided to adopt Ms. Kishline's program as one approach.
The willingness to try something new has been prompted, in part, by stricter managed care reimbursement standards, which have led to the closure of half of the nation's rehabilitation centers, say officials at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital, which runs Smithers.
Ms. Kishline founded Moderation Management in 1993 and published her book, subtitled ''The Moderation Management Guide for People Who Want to Reduce Their Drinking,'' a year later. An advertisement for the book said: ''Based on her own unsatisfactory experience with abstinence-based programs, Kishline offers inspiration and a step-by-step program to help individuals avoid the kind of drinking that detrimentally affects their lives.''
Her program calls for 30 days of abstinence, and suggests refraining from drinking for at least three days a week. Over all, she wrote, women should not have more than three drinks a day or exceed nine drinks a week; men, she said, should have no more than four drinks a day or 14 drinks a week. Among tips to reduce drinking are alternating alcoholic with nonalcoholic drinks.
Moderation Management, with chapters in 14 states and Canada, describes its aim as helping people who have experienced mild to moderate alcohol problems, but who are not alcoholics, reduce their drinking. The group says moderate drinking is a ''reasonable and attainable recovery goal for problem drinkers.''
Among the group's tenets are: ''Never drive while under the influence of alcohol.''
Alcohol treatment experts have clashed over the moderation approach, with some calling it useful for some kinds of drinkers, while others say it gives alcoholics the false and dangerous hope that they can learn ways to continue drinking.
The group got national attention two years ago when a computer programmer confessed in an Internet chat site for group members that he had killed his 5-year-old daughter by setting his house on fire in a custody dispute with his former wife.
Ms. Kishline cried in court as she pleaded guilty to the vehicular homicide charges. She had also been accused of hit-and-run driving for forcing another vehicle off the highway, but that charge was dropped.
Now she is contemplating writing another book, stressing that moderation is not a viable option for people with serious alcohol problems, said her lawyer, John Crowley.
During the proceeding, grieving relatives of Mr. Davis and his daughter watched, clutching pictures of Mr. Davis and LaSchell, who was killed 10 days after her 12th birthday. And they listened carefully to Ms. Kishline's statement afterward.
''If it helps one person to stop, then go ahead, do it,'' Will Davis, Mr. Davis's brother, said of Ms. Kishline's new message.
''But no matter what she does now, it's not bringing Danny back,'' said another relative, standing nearby. ''It's not bringing LaSchell back.''
Man this is right from the horses mouth.....steve
July 9, 2000, Sunday
National Desk
Advocate of Moderation for Heavy Drinkers Learns Sobering Lesson
By SAM HOWE VERHOVEK
After she founded a self-help program called Moderation Management seven years ago, Audrey Kishline became a national spokeswoman for the notion that problem drinkers could be taught to cut back without abstaining altogether. Groups like Alcoholics Anonymous that favor abstinence sharply criticized her and the book she wrote, ''Moderate Drinking: The New Option for Problem Drinkers.''
Now Ms. Kishline says she may well become a spokeswoman again, probably from behind prison bars.
Having pleaded guilty to two counts of vehicular homicide after a binge drinking episode last March during which she became so intoxicated she barely remembers climbing into her pickup truck, Ms. Kishline said through her lawyer that she has a new message: Moderation Management involves a lot of ''alcoholics covering up their problem.''
Ms. Kishline, 43, was driving the wrong way down an interstate freeway near Cle Elum, in central Washington, and smashed head-on into a car, killing Danny Davis, a 38-year-old electrician, and his 12-year-old daughter, LaSchell. Prosecutors said her blood-alcohol level was three times the legal limit.
With her plea last week, Ms. Kishline, who is in a treatment program in Oregon, is almost certainly headed to prison when she is sentenced on Aug. 11. The prosecutor is seeking four and a half years, although the maximum penalty is life.
Ms. Kishline declined a request for an interview, but in a statement she made with her lawyer at the Kittitas County Courthouse, she expressed profound remorse and described herself as ''a housewife and mother who woke up in a trauma unit of a hospital on March 25th to find out that I am the cause of the deaths of two innocent people.''
She added: ''I am giving this statement in a public forum because I pray that my story can touch at least one other alcoholic. When I failed at moderation, and then failed at abstinence, I was too full of embarrassment and shame to seek help. In self-pity I gave up and believed my nightly drinking at home could hurt no one but myself.''
Controversial through all the years that she wrote newspaper opinion-page pieces and appeared on television talk shows, Ms. Kishline has again inflamed a debate over moderation versus abstinence by offering her own calamitous story as an example of denial in action. And many of those who debated her in the past have seized on her experience to warn about what they call the delusion behind the idea that alcoholics can be taught to drink without harm.
''This dreadful tragedy might have been avoided if Ms. Kishline had come to this realization earlier,'' said Stacia Murphy, president of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, a nonprofit group based in New York City. ''Unfortunately, the disease of alcoholism, which is characterized by denial, prevented this from occurring. While this does not excuse Ms. Kishline's actions, it provides a harsh lesson for all of society.''
But far from depicting Ms. Kishline as an example of the failures of Moderation Management, people involved with the organization note that she had also tried abstinence and failed. And the worst incident occurred, in her own depiction, after she had joined Alcoholics Anonymous.
''Isn't it ironic that her most extreme case of intoxication came after she quit Moderation Management?'' said Stanton Peele, a board member of Moderation Management who is a psychologist in Morristown, N.J. ''A.A. didn't have the answers for her, either.''
Indeed, despite Ms. Kishline's troubles, the concept of Moderation Management was recently accepted as a treatment technique by the Smithers Addiction Treatment and Research Center in Manhattan.
Officials at Smithers, known for its treatment of celebrities like the baseball player Darryl Strawberry, have decided to adopt Ms. Kishline's program as one approach.
The willingness to try something new has been prompted, in part, by stricter managed care reimbursement standards, which have led to the closure of half of the nation's rehabilitation centers, say officials at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital, which runs Smithers.
Ms. Kishline founded Moderation Management in 1993 and published her book, subtitled ''The Moderation Management Guide for People Who Want to Reduce Their Drinking,'' a year later. An advertisement for the book said: ''Based on her own unsatisfactory experience with abstinence-based programs, Kishline offers inspiration and a step-by-step program to help individuals avoid the kind of drinking that detrimentally affects their lives.''
Her program calls for 30 days of abstinence, and suggests refraining from drinking for at least three days a week. Over all, she wrote, women should not have more than three drinks a day or exceed nine drinks a week; men, she said, should have no more than four drinks a day or 14 drinks a week. Among tips to reduce drinking are alternating alcoholic with nonalcoholic drinks.
Moderation Management, with chapters in 14 states and Canada, describes its aim as helping people who have experienced mild to moderate alcohol problems, but who are not alcoholics, reduce their drinking. The group says moderate drinking is a ''reasonable and attainable recovery goal for problem drinkers.''
Among the group's tenets are: ''Never drive while under the influence of alcohol.''
Alcohol treatment experts have clashed over the moderation approach, with some calling it useful for some kinds of drinkers, while others say it gives alcoholics the false and dangerous hope that they can learn ways to continue drinking.
The group got national attention two years ago when a computer programmer confessed in an Internet chat site for group members that he had killed his 5-year-old daughter by setting his house on fire in a custody dispute with his former wife.
Ms. Kishline cried in court as she pleaded guilty to the vehicular homicide charges. She had also been accused of hit-and-run driving for forcing another vehicle off the highway, but that charge was dropped.
Now she is contemplating writing another book, stressing that moderation is not a viable option for people with serious alcohol problems, said her lawyer, John Crowley.
During the proceeding, grieving relatives of Mr. Davis and his daughter watched, clutching pictures of Mr. Davis and LaSchell, who was killed 10 days after her 12th birthday. And they listened carefully to Ms. Kishline's statement afterward.
''If it helps one person to stop, then go ahead, do it,'' Will Davis, Mr. Davis's brother, said of Ms. Kishline's new message.
''But no matter what she does now, it's not bringing Danny back,'' said another relative, standing nearby. ''It's not bringing LaSchell back.''
Man this is right from the horses mouth.....steve
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by bluto
...snip. Essentially AA is a "New Age" God channeling religion. That being said 95% of the members in AA aren't aware of that fact. Not surprising however. I was in the program over 20 years before I figured that out.
Why don't you tell us what works for you instead of telling lies about what works for others?
Boy am I going to have fun with you.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by bluto
Me2
I know all about Audrey Kishline. But what does that have to do with powerlessness. I am well aware of the fact that I cannot drink anymore. I take responsibility for that today. Alcohol is not "cunning,baffling or powerfull." It is a chemical substance! I have been in and around AA for a long time. I have never seen a liquor bottle sprout arms and legs and pour itself down someones throat. People make decisions. Individuals need to take responsibility for those decisions. Blaming it on powerlessness or the "Demon Rum" doesn't get it with me.
I know all about Audrey Kishline. But what does that have to do with powerlessness. I am well aware of the fact that I cannot drink anymore. I take responsibility for that today. Alcohol is not "cunning,baffling or powerfull." It is a chemical substance! I have been in and around AA for a long time. I have never seen a liquor bottle sprout arms and legs and pour itself down someones throat. People make decisions. Individuals need to take responsibility for those decisions. Blaming it on powerlessness or the "Demon Rum" doesn't get it with me.
)
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
Originally Posted by Me2
I think abstinence means what it says. It clearly means to obstain from. Now when one comitts to abstinence I think there should be room to allow for growth. If we expect a person to comitt to abstinence and then they fall down,we should expect to pick them back up. This is most often best accomplished when we have accountability and transparency in our lives with others who are aware of our issues. There is strength in numbers and a family of recoverying people offers support. There are few lone rangers in recovery who do it alone,although there may be an exception to the rule. Alcohol to the addict is a dangerous substance and when we try alone with our own rationality we often get seduced when we arent interacting with others, for we all have blind spots. This would apply to most recovery systems in use today in my humble oppinion. There is a difference between someone who really has had it and wants to quit and someone with an addiction who hasnt accpeted they have a problem. Abstinence to them sounds to irrational,to hard,to insane,to unloveing,to judgemental,to uptight...or to whatever. They still may be in denial or inviolved in the big lie of alocohol..which is.."oh your o.k. you can handle it".Although you can discuss it with them they have set defense mechanisms around themselves to resist the logic and reason of how they are destroying thier lives. The battle inside them rages on...sanity and insanity...a time when will wants to choose the right answer but then is overcome by addiciton. Its the yo-yo effect up and down up and down....do I want to quit..or dont I. Usually for full blown addictions its something that comes crashing into our awareness and circumstances that drives us to the ground,batterd and torn. Then we say something dumb,like most of us have.." Well I think I may have a probelm". Until then we can play the game for a pretty long time. So for me I choose abstinence because that ends a lot of the issues right there. I dont have to debate harm reduction or moderation for there is no harm to come...Ive decided to abstain....and hope if others cant at least they can work themselves in that direction...Steve
Wow! Well done, thanks a bunch!
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,709
Bluto, how could I attack you personally. I don't even have a clue what you're about. I however see you affirm things about AA that I find prepostrous. Yeah, by all means let's keep things civil. So I'll shut the hell up. Think I'll go to a meeting and see if I can get some god channeled into me.
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