Why do courts sentence people to AA?
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choublak, hopefully most people mandated to AA can figure out themselves that they can sign the sheets themselves. I mean it is a anonymous program. If they cannot figure that out than they need some help in the "common sense" department.
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Originally Posted by LadyinBC 
I love the way you make this so simple! It really is when you think about it.
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Originally Posted by Justfor1
choublak, hopefully most people mandated to AA can figure out themselves that they can sign the sheets themselves. I mean it is a anonymous program. If they cannot figure that out than they need some help in the "common sense" department.
All the best.
Bob R
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Originally Posted by Johno1967
Question from an Australian. We don't have court mandated recovery programs like the States, that I'm aware of (any other Australians who know different, please correct me).
Is AA a choice of the court system or do they say "you must attend an addiction recovery program that is approved by the court and get your attendance record signed until you complete the meetings"? If you don't agree with AA, can you go somewhere else?
I remember meeting an American over here about 20 years ago, he had a buzz cut and I asked if he had been in the Army. He replied "No, the Marines". I was impressed and asked him more because for me at the time, nothing was more hard core than the Marines ( I later went to the states and offered myself up to serve in the USMC but got declined on account of being a Foreign National), my friend later confessed that he had never been in the Marines but in a program that ran at the time where you could spend a year in prison for DUI with assault or undergo a brutal 12 week program run along a Marine disciplinary unit. He chose the 12 weeks and said it was hell. Did it change him? Oh Yeah, the discipline sorted him right out.
Up until the 1970's it was routine for judges to give young felons a choice of jail or the military in the States and Australia, we shipped them to Vietnam. Nowadays it would be unheard of. You probably can't get into the military today if you have a misdemeanor on your record. Its a shame. Shame they don't have it here, it would sort a lot of young people out IMHO. My point is, if the kindly judge is stepping on your sensibilities by suggesting a few meetings instead of time in prison I personally would 'suit up, show up, sit down and shut up". He's being nice and trying to keep people who don't need to be in jail out of jail. Like my "Marine" friend you may actually learn something that will keep you out of jail in the future. Alternative, tell the judge to stick it and get a free pass to jail.
Is AA a choice of the court system or do they say "you must attend an addiction recovery program that is approved by the court and get your attendance record signed until you complete the meetings"? If you don't agree with AA, can you go somewhere else?
I remember meeting an American over here about 20 years ago, he had a buzz cut and I asked if he had been in the Army. He replied "No, the Marines". I was impressed and asked him more because for me at the time, nothing was more hard core than the Marines ( I later went to the states and offered myself up to serve in the USMC but got declined on account of being a Foreign National), my friend later confessed that he had never been in the Marines but in a program that ran at the time where you could spend a year in prison for DUI with assault or undergo a brutal 12 week program run along a Marine disciplinary unit. He chose the 12 weeks and said it was hell. Did it change him? Oh Yeah, the discipline sorted him right out.
Up until the 1970's it was routine for judges to give young felons a choice of jail or the military in the States and Australia, we shipped them to Vietnam. Nowadays it would be unheard of. You probably can't get into the military today if you have a misdemeanor on your record. Its a shame. Shame they don't have it here, it would sort a lot of young people out IMHO. My point is, if the kindly judge is stepping on your sensibilities by suggesting a few meetings instead of time in prison I personally would 'suit up, show up, sit down and shut up". He's being nice and trying to keep people who don't need to be in jail out of jail. Like my "Marine" friend you may actually learn something that will keep you out of jail in the future. Alternative, tell the judge to stick it and get a free pass to jail.
my sponsors been sober 39 years now. retired from the probation dept in metro detroit. some of the stories hes told me has had me roflmao. i laugh because i think,"why didnt i think of that?? but glad i didnt!!"
i could only imagine the shock of walking in for my monthly visit with my PO and them lookin at my slip and picking up the phone and callin some of them numbers. then tryin to tell the PO,"you cant do that!' then the PO callin in the prosecuting atty and judge and ask them if there are any laws being broke. then having the prosecuting atty and judge look at me and say,"only by you."
yes, probation officers CAN call them numbers and the person on the other end can say whatever they want. AA cant send anyone to jail for being honest.
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many years later when I was at a bottom
Originally Posted by choublak
They have their little sheet of paper with dates and times and have to persuade someone at the meeting to sign it to confirm they attended. Why do courts do this, when it goes against the basic principles of what AA is about?
just something that has been going on for a long time in OPEN meetings
we need to remember that at least for some
it will plant the seed
this is what happened for me
attended my first AA meeting while in jail at the age of 18
I cared not about being sober
but
many years later when I was at a bottom I knew where to go
to an AA meeting
if we just can't stand the signing of court slips
we can go to CLOSED meetings only
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
It actually doesn't violate any AA principles really. No group is required to sign the papers. Its a 4th tradition issue. A group can decide to sign or not to sign sheets.
That being said, I think this is a debate that could go on and on. There are ups and downs to it. The thing that bothers me the most is that a DUI or 2 doesn't make one an alcoholic. The courts seem to feel that AA is a good temporary treatment for people who have gotten into trouble when drinking. When in reality AA is a permanent solution, a guide for a new way of life for alcoholics.
On the other hand I know several folks who ended up in AA on paper and have gotten sober and are valuable members of AA in good standing.
That being said, I think this is a debate that could go on and on. There are ups and downs to it. The thing that bothers me the most is that a DUI or 2 doesn't make one an alcoholic. The courts seem to feel that AA is a good temporary treatment for people who have gotten into trouble when drinking. When in reality AA is a permanent solution, a guide for a new way of life for alcoholics.
On the other hand I know several folks who ended up in AA on paper and have gotten sober and are valuable members of AA in good standing.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by Johno1967
Question from an Australian. We don't have court mandated recovery programs like the States, that I'm aware of (any other Australians who know different, please correct me).
Is AA a choice of the court system or do they say "you must attend an addiction recovery program that is approved by the court and get your attendance record signed until you complete the meetings"? If you don't agree with AA, can you go somewhere else?
I remember meeting an American over here about 20 years ago, he had a buzz cut and I asked if he had been in the Army. He replied "No, the Marines". I was impressed and asked him more because for me at the time, nothing was more hard core than the Marines ( I later went to the states and offered myself up to serve in the USMC but got declined on account of being a Foreign National), my friend later confessed that he had never been in the Marines but in a program that ran at the time where you could spend a year in prison for DUI with assault or undergo a brutal 12 week program run along a Marine disciplinary unit. He chose the 12 weeks and said it was hell. Did it change him? Oh Yeah, the discipline sorted him right out.
Up until the 1970's it was routine for judges to give young felons a choice of jail or the military in the States and Australia, we shipped them to Vietnam. Nowadays it would be unheard of. You probably can't get into the military today if you have a misdemeanor on your record. Its a shame. Shame they don't have it here, it would sort a lot of young people out IMHO. My point is, if the kindly judge is stepping on your sensibilities by suggesting a few meetings instead of time in prison I personally would 'suit up, show up, sit down and shut up". He's being nice and trying to keep people who don't need to be in jail out of jail. Like my "Marine" friend you may actually learn something that will keep you out of jail in the future. Alternative, tell the judge to stick it and get a free pass to jail.
Is AA a choice of the court system or do they say "you must attend an addiction recovery program that is approved by the court and get your attendance record signed until you complete the meetings"? If you don't agree with AA, can you go somewhere else?
I remember meeting an American over here about 20 years ago, he had a buzz cut and I asked if he had been in the Army. He replied "No, the Marines". I was impressed and asked him more because for me at the time, nothing was more hard core than the Marines ( I later went to the states and offered myself up to serve in the USMC but got declined on account of being a Foreign National), my friend later confessed that he had never been in the Marines but in a program that ran at the time where you could spend a year in prison for DUI with assault or undergo a brutal 12 week program run along a Marine disciplinary unit. He chose the 12 weeks and said it was hell. Did it change him? Oh Yeah, the discipline sorted him right out.
Up until the 1970's it was routine for judges to give young felons a choice of jail or the military in the States and Australia, we shipped them to Vietnam. Nowadays it would be unheard of. You probably can't get into the military today if you have a misdemeanor on your record. Its a shame. Shame they don't have it here, it would sort a lot of young people out IMHO. My point is, if the kindly judge is stepping on your sensibilities by suggesting a few meetings instead of time in prison I personally would 'suit up, show up, sit down and shut up". He's being nice and trying to keep people who don't need to be in jail out of jail. Like my "Marine" friend you may actually learn something that will keep you out of jail in the future. Alternative, tell the judge to stick it and get a free pass to jail.
So basically, if the person has to meet these criteria to clear their record or complete their sentence, they have to attend AA meetings, even though they, on their own, would not choose to. That's not what AA is about.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Some jurisdictions do NOT send anyone to AA as it has been ruled "inheriently religious" and thus violates the separation clause. It is my understanding that even the jurisdictions that use AA offer attendance in lieu of prosecution. There is a choice to be made by the offender: go to AA or go to jail. Some jurisdictions offer AA or an alternative like SMART or Life Ring.
paradox
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 665
I had a six meeting court order abour 30 years ago. Not sure if I learned anything, except that I knew where to go when i couldn't stop drinking on my own. In my humble opinion, that little bit of knowledge was worth it. In part, my 8 years of sobriety are due to knowing what AA was about in advance of choosing to be there.
If people without a desire to stop drinking make you uncomfortable in meetings, stick to closed meetings. Exercise your free will while accepting that others are entitled to free will as well. Everyone (unless disruptive) has as much right to be in an open meeting as you do.
dox
If people without a desire to stop drinking make you uncomfortable in meetings, stick to closed meetings. Exercise your free will while accepting that others are entitled to free will as well. Everyone (unless disruptive) has as much right to be in an open meeting as you do.
dox
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Originally Posted by choublak
They have their little sheet of paper with dates and times and have to persuade someone at the meeting to sign it to confirm they attended. Why do courts do this, when it goes against the basic principles of what AA is about?
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Originally Posted by choublak
They have their little sheet of paper with dates and times and have to persuade someone at the meeting to sign it to confirm they attended. Why do courts do this, when it goes against the basic principles of what AA is about?
I came into AA thanks to the juvenile justice system. After my second drunk and disorderly and a few other things I was sentence to probation and attendance to AA meetings. The judge also ordered my parents to attend an Al-Anon meeting.
This of course started my trial of controlled drinking/drugs which only resulted in another court appearance. Due to my parents involvement in Al-Anon, the judge rescinded my jail sentence and put me in rehab. Six months later I finally surrendered on my own.
Both my parents continued their involvement with Al-Anon. The help start a parents group back in 1978 which is still going strong. They both continued their involvement in Al-Anon until my father passed away four years ago. My mom continues to go to this day.
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No one that I know of was happy about going to AA at first, and many ended up there because of some mandate from someone... I know that's how I got there...
Like justfor1 said... they can sign 'em themselves.
Courts can tell us to do a lot of things... or they can send us to jail... IDK, the whole thing doesn't bother me and it seems somewhat pious of those of us in AA to refuse to be at least be friendly and cooperative with those who end up in the rooms with a paper to sign.
edited
Like justfor1 said... they can sign 'em themselves.
Courts can tell us to do a lot of things... or they can send us to jail... IDK, the whole thing doesn't bother me and it seems somewhat pious of those of us in AA to refuse to be at least be friendly and cooperative with those who end up in the rooms with a paper to sign.
edited
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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choublak
Think yourself lucky your are able to come here and dump about going to a court ordered AA meeting.
You must have done something while drinking to land yourself in this situation, obviously you got drunk.
So the real question is, do you think you are a real alcoholic ?
If you don't know what that means, go to the AA meetings and find out just that.
Then if you don't mind, come back here and let us know what you have learnt ad whether the judge has made the right choice for you.
Think yourself lucky your are able to come here and dump about going to a court ordered AA meeting.
You must have done something while drinking to land yourself in this situation, obviously you got drunk.
So the real question is, do you think you are a real alcoholic ?
If you don't know what that means, go to the AA meetings and find out just that.
Then if you don't mind, come back here and let us know what you have learnt ad whether the judge has made the right choice for you.
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Originally Posted by choublak
They have their little sheet of paper with dates and times and have to persuade someone at the meeting to sign it to confirm they attended. Why do courts do this, when it goes against the basic principles of what AA is about?
The courts have their reasons I'm sure. I can agree or disagree as much as I like.
I highly doubt a judge cares about the basic principles of AA. If the judge thinks society might be safer with the plaintiff sitting in a meeting... There he sits. Or sit in jail. Pick your poison.
If AA doesn't like it they can shut the doors.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
The only requirement for attending an open A.A. open meeting is showing up.
The court ordering of defendants to make a choice of alcohol use programs is an outside issue to A.A.
A.A. has no opinion on outside issues.
Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
The only requirement for attending an open A.A. open meeting is showing up.
The court ordering of defendants to make a choice of alcohol use programs is an outside issue to A.A.
A.A. has no opinion on outside issues.
Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
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IMO, mandating a person can "plant the seed" to change. However, I often times see people just get resentful towards AA and look at is as punishment. When I ran my weekly AA meeting I would sign their little sheets and told them they could stay or leave. AA was never designed to be used as a punishment. I don't think the court realizes that many AA members continue to drink on occasion. Interestingly enough, I did know a person who told the Judge he would to the prison route instead of the rehab and AA attendance. He said he didn't believe it would work and the Judge gave him prison time! Although it was the minimum sentence.
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