Insights on connection between sobriety and maturity
Better when never is never
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
Insights on connection between sobriety and maturity
I have been thinking about this one a lot. I have always felt much less mature than other people my age (I am mid 40s). There are many aspects of my personality in which this manifests itself. Many of those aspects I like about myself, while others are quite bothersome. When I am sober, these are exposed into the light. I feel like I am lazy, people pleasing, not serious, selfish, and several other things. I don't feel bad about myself, just that I feel I should be more mature and maybe if I was more mature, then it would be easier to make the right decisions regarding my life and sobriety. Does anyone have any insights on this? Is it important to sobriety?
Sally1009
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 467
I don't know.. It's a good question ( and a mature one!). I think alcoholism can affect anyone. Perhaps how we deal with sobriety, which includes making the right choices, is a question of maturity. Or maybe we can be a mixture of maturity and immaturity. I know for myself that during my drinking time I did not grow as a person, thus I feel far younger than I really am.
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Great question and self-awareness. Drinking stunts our emotional growth. I am in my early 40's and don't always feel that I am near that emotionally. As we become sober and move into a new way of life, we have to re-learn, or in many cases actually learn, how to be. I know I go through what I call emotional growing pains. I struggle with something that I probably should have struggled with many, many years ago, but was too self-absorbed in my alcoholism.
In my experience, it takes time to get past this, as long as we are working in our recovery to discover, uncover and apply (and in many cases, discard) the things that lie underneath. You are right not to feel bad about yourself, or to beat yourself up. We all go through this - this is part of the journey. And you're on that. You're going to have times of emotional issues where you're not sure what the right choice it. I have gone through that many times. But it's not so much what is "right", but what is healthy. And as we get through these growing pains, we become the men and women we were meant to be.
In my experience, it takes time to get past this, as long as we are working in our recovery to discover, uncover and apply (and in many cases, discard) the things that lie underneath. You are right not to feel bad about yourself, or to beat yourself up. We all go through this - this is part of the journey. And you're on that. You're going to have times of emotional issues where you're not sure what the right choice it. I have gone through that many times. But it's not so much what is "right", but what is healthy. And as we get through these growing pains, we become the men and women we were meant to be.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Hi jazzfish - I agree with Paul99, it's a great question.
Me, I'm 57, and, er 'stumbling towards enlightenment' after a year's path getting and trying to stay sober. (Had relapsed quite a bit in recent days, weeks and months, but I talk about that over in Secular Connections on SR).
Re the maturity thing: personally, I have some difficulty subscribing to the (often heard) assertion - particularly in recovery groups - that our alcoholism arrests our development in numerous senses. I believe it's a highly individual thing, which only that one person can work out for themselves; for me, I try to delve into the notion of 'wisdom' (in the ancient sense) instead of 'maturity'. Maturity, imho, is subject to a whole host of cultural and historical - and therefore, changing - 'definitions' or descriptions. (e.g. what is considered 'mature' in say, one of the little African countries can be quite different from those of us in most Anglo countries).
So, discovering one's inner wisdom, and doing one's best to apply it in ordinary life, works a bit better for me.
Good on you for raising it!
Me, I'm 57, and, er 'stumbling towards enlightenment' after a year's path getting and trying to stay sober. (Had relapsed quite a bit in recent days, weeks and months, but I talk about that over in Secular Connections on SR).
Re the maturity thing: personally, I have some difficulty subscribing to the (often heard) assertion - particularly in recovery groups - that our alcoholism arrests our development in numerous senses. I believe it's a highly individual thing, which only that one person can work out for themselves; for me, I try to delve into the notion of 'wisdom' (in the ancient sense) instead of 'maturity'. Maturity, imho, is subject to a whole host of cultural and historical - and therefore, changing - 'definitions' or descriptions. (e.g. what is considered 'mature' in say, one of the little African countries can be quite different from those of us in most Anglo countries).
So, discovering one's inner wisdom, and doing one's best to apply it in ordinary life, works a bit better for me.
Good on you for raising it!
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
A little further thought just occurred to me....maybe a nicely succinct workable maxim for developing maturity or wisdom, might be something like:
'I aim to do no (conscious) harm to myself, or others.' I say that one because I too relate a lot to some of the behaviours or self-aspects you describe. So, for example (me thinking aloud here), with being prone to laziness: 'am I doing harm to myself, or others, when I'm lazy?' maybe bat that idea around a bit - and I will too!
'I aim to do no (conscious) harm to myself, or others.' I say that one because I too relate a lot to some of the behaviours or self-aspects you describe. So, for example (me thinking aloud here), with being prone to laziness: 'am I doing harm to myself, or others, when I'm lazy?' maybe bat that idea around a bit - and I will too!
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,313
I think I had the longest adolescence in recorded history 
I grew up fast in recovery tho - just dealing with the many things I used to avoid by drinking required a responsible adult - I found out not only ewas I capable of doing the job, I actually liked being a grown up
That's not to say I can't be childish, immature, bratty or just plain juvenile, but I think I'm doing ok...I actually like being a little childlike and silly sometimes
I'm sure you'll find the same Jazzfish...
D
I grew up fast in recovery tho - just dealing with the many things I used to avoid by drinking required a responsible adult - I found out not only ewas I capable of doing the job, I actually liked being a grown up
That's not to say I can't be childish, immature, bratty or just plain juvenile, but I think I'm doing ok...I actually like being a little childlike and silly sometimes
I'm sure you'll find the same Jazzfish...
D
Canine Welfare Advocate
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 10,962
I am sure drinking and drugging hampers our maturity, but don't rush too quickly to equate aspects of your character (or character defects) with alcoholism or your ability to get sober. I don't think there is any correlation.
I remember a thread where someone postulated that creative people were more apt to abuse drugs and alcohol. And of a bunch of people who consider themselves creative types post "Oh, you are absolutely right! I'm creative and I'm a drunk."
Ludicrous. I think they call that false logic...
I remember a thread where someone postulated that creative people were more apt to abuse drugs and alcohol. And of a bunch of people who consider themselves creative types post "Oh, you are absolutely right! I'm creative and I'm a drunk."
Ludicrous. I think they call that false logic...
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central America/Florida USA
Posts: 4,064
GREAT question. I suppose I have thought of that too, now that you mention it. I didn't graduate college until I was 26, and partied like a young kid during those 20's years. I am 37 now, and I am one of the few remaining in my core group of friends that has not ever been married or purchased a home. Was I too busy "being a kid" to take being a grown up seriously? Am I afraid to admit I'm really a grown up?
That said, I have seen much more of the world than most of my friends. I have been all over the world, often times by myself. I went to Spain alone, Belgium, Indonesia, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, all alone on separate trips. I'm not trying to "humblebrag" here, but most of my friends wouldn't dare even GO to Russia, let alone figure out how to land in Moscow by themselves with no hotel reservations or a place to stay. I have covered professional sporting events for major news outlets, and have had some of my articles syndicated nationwide. None of my friends can say that. I speak more languages than my friends too. Am I more "mature" than others in this regard?
I suppose neither answer is true. Our behavior is shaped by many things, and though our addictions do indeed affect that, I don't think they are always the root cause. General behavior and "why we are the way we are" is a very complex subject, as is the definition of what "mature" really means in the first place.
Also, I think our alcoholic brains tend to lean towards negative self-talk. We find it easy to look at the ways we are DIFFERENT or BEHIND some of our social groups (see my first example) instead o the ways we are SIMILAR or AHEAD of our social groups (my second). All in all it's a very interesting subject, and by even having the insight to verbalize the question, you are showing a maturity and awareness that is lacking in most people I know.
Thanks for bringing it up, I have enjoyed reading the responses thusfar.
That said, I have seen much more of the world than most of my friends. I have been all over the world, often times by myself. I went to Spain alone, Belgium, Indonesia, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, all alone on separate trips. I'm not trying to "humblebrag" here, but most of my friends wouldn't dare even GO to Russia, let alone figure out how to land in Moscow by themselves with no hotel reservations or a place to stay. I have covered professional sporting events for major news outlets, and have had some of my articles syndicated nationwide. None of my friends can say that. I speak more languages than my friends too. Am I more "mature" than others in this regard?
I suppose neither answer is true. Our behavior is shaped by many things, and though our addictions do indeed affect that, I don't think they are always the root cause. General behavior and "why we are the way we are" is a very complex subject, as is the definition of what "mature" really means in the first place.
Also, I think our alcoholic brains tend to lean towards negative self-talk. We find it easy to look at the ways we are DIFFERENT or BEHIND some of our social groups (see my first example) instead o the ways we are SIMILAR or AHEAD of our social groups (my second). All in all it's a very interesting subject, and by even having the insight to verbalize the question, you are showing a maturity and awareness that is lacking in most people I know.
Thanks for bringing it up, I have enjoyed reading the responses thusfar.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
I personally believe that to some degree we are all damaged by our drinking. I
have seen this not only in myself but in those I have sponsored and been friends
with all these years.
When I found recovery I was 3 weeks shy of my 36th birthday and emotionally
and maybe mentally also, I was like the 12 1/2 year old that started drinking.
It took some years in recovery to start actually feeling like an adult and doing'
adult things.
I graduated and got my bachelor's degree at 43 years old. I started my own
business (and it was very successful) and ran it until my deteriorating health
interfered.
Got my health back on track. Have traveled extensively in and out of country.
I finally got my VFR pilot's license and am now working on my IFR (much more
intense, lol). I have done and do canine fostering and rescuing.
Just a very busy, 'mature' adult life.
You can be and can do whatever you want sober. Stop drinking. Work on you,
to get through the 'wreckage' of your past and you can move forward and have
A LIFE YOU NEVER BELIEVED WAS POSSIBLE!
J M H O
Love and hugs,
have seen this not only in myself but in those I have sponsored and been friends
with all these years.
When I found recovery I was 3 weeks shy of my 36th birthday and emotionally
and maybe mentally also, I was like the 12 1/2 year old that started drinking.
It took some years in recovery to start actually feeling like an adult and doing'
adult things.
I graduated and got my bachelor's degree at 43 years old. I started my own
business (and it was very successful) and ran it until my deteriorating health
interfered.
Got my health back on track. Have traveled extensively in and out of country.
I finally got my VFR pilot's license and am now working on my IFR (much more
intense, lol). I have done and do canine fostering and rescuing.
Just a very busy, 'mature' adult life.
You can be and can do whatever you want sober. Stop drinking. Work on you,
to get through the 'wreckage' of your past and you can move forward and have
A LIFE YOU NEVER BELIEVED WAS POSSIBLE!
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: ma
Posts: 242
my sister "J" and I have had this discussion in the past in regards to my other sister "E" and her "development and recovery" "J" is a RN with a bachelors in sociology and has worked extensively with addicts and in mental health. She told me there is a definite correlation with the age the addict starts to use and the development of their brain. From what I understand it is not necessarily permanent and sobriety is obviously the first step, right?
Anyways, I am not qualified to make these statements and have not done the research, just some information heard from someone who has.
Personally, I am 31 years old and had to have my husband help me make a budget so I could FINALLY start saving my money. I am otherwise very responsible and independent person.
The other thing I always think is, just because one person or group defines maturity one way, does not mean that you have to conform to that. Why shouldn't you spend your 20's travelling, or get married until you're ready? I would hate to think that people make major life changing choices just because its "the mature thing to do"
Be whoever you want. As long as you don't hurt people or yourself. Who cares? Growing up is for the birds. Have fun!
Anyways, I am not qualified to make these statements and have not done the research, just some information heard from someone who has.
Personally, I am 31 years old and had to have my husband help me make a budget so I could FINALLY start saving my money. I am otherwise very responsible and independent person.
The other thing I always think is, just because one person or group defines maturity one way, does not mean that you have to conform to that. Why shouldn't you spend your 20's travelling, or get married until you're ready? I would hate to think that people make major life changing choices just because its "the mature thing to do"
Be whoever you want. As long as you don't hurt people or yourself. Who cares? Growing up is for the birds. Have fun!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Getting to where I want to be
Posts: 502
Funny, I've been thinking about this a lot too. I think alcoholism robs us of many of the qualities that define maturity. An alcoholic, while drinking, isn't capable of functioning as a productive, mature human being.
I really think the steps of AA are geared toward building the alcoholics character to the point of maturity, accountability, and responsibility. Once that is being worked on, I think happiness and serenity soon follow.
I don't think the steps are unique. I think all "normal", mature people incorporate some of the ideas contained in these steps in their daily lives.
Bill W. And Dr. Bob simply codified a good way of life that would work well with anyone.
I really think the steps of AA are geared toward building the alcoholics character to the point of maturity, accountability, and responsibility. Once that is being worked on, I think happiness and serenity soon follow.
I don't think the steps are unique. I think all "normal", mature people incorporate some of the ideas contained in these steps in their daily lives.
Bill W. And Dr. Bob simply codified a good way of life that would work well with anyone.
Better when never is never
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
I agree, John. I think the "magic" of the steps are 1) a clearly defined purpose, 2) specific actions to take in support of that purpose, and 3) by following 1 & 2, a way to rebuild self-esteem. These pay off in terms of the three character aspects that you mentioned. All of these are issues where many alcoholics have fallen short in their lives.
That bell or bike person
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: london
Posts: 4,978
I think i have a lot more experience of dealing with bad situations , misery and anguish and i can find compassion and empathy some people my age or older don't have the experience of living the bad stuff to deal with , obviously a broad generalisation .
By living each day fully, savouring it one moment at a time, my journey out of mental ill health has driven me to learn a way to live free and happy every day, whatever happens . Some of my colleauges live in a constant state of anxiety and fear of loosing the material things of their life , i don't .
If i find things out about myself i don't like then i feel free to change them .
To be honest i think the high expectations and level of responcibility i set myself meant i was far too mature for a young guy, i had to grow up rather quick as a kid , which meant i always had trouble letting go .
I believe i may have entered my "second childhood" early though as i love to splash in puddles in my welly's , feel the play of water on my skin , look at clouds and collect interesting pebbles these days , whereas i used to take the Times, find politics, economics and electronics interesting ... Ohhh my !
Bestwishes, M
By living each day fully, savouring it one moment at a time, my journey out of mental ill health has driven me to learn a way to live free and happy every day, whatever happens . Some of my colleauges live in a constant state of anxiety and fear of loosing the material things of their life , i don't .
If i find things out about myself i don't like then i feel free to change them .
To be honest i think the high expectations and level of responcibility i set myself meant i was far too mature for a young guy, i had to grow up rather quick as a kid , which meant i always had trouble letting go .
I believe i may have entered my "second childhood" early though as i love to splash in puddles in my welly's , feel the play of water on my skin , look at clouds and collect interesting pebbles these days , whereas i used to take the Times, find politics, economics and electronics interesting ... Ohhh my !
Bestwishes, M
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Getting to where I want to be
Posts: 502
Oh and please don't think I'm trivializing the work of Bill W. and Dr. Bob. I honestly believe they are two of the most important figures of the 20th Century. Their tireless work with alcoholics has resulted in an option for otherwise hopeless people. The amount of suffering that has been avoided/alleviated as a direct result of their work and the AA 12 Step program of recovery is incaculable.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
I've heard this phrase used to describe the drunk: his majesty the child. We're very immature because we stop growing when we get into real alcoholic drinking. What helped me was the 12 Steps. I changed a great deal alathough in some areas I'm still immature. It's a lifelong process.
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