Dan

A thought just occured to me (yeah, I know I can expect more of those as I progress in sobriety). When it comes to recovery programs and systems, why is there a compulsion by some people to "advance" their program vis a vis another person's? The bash threads notwithstanding, don't we all share a common goal? I have read a few posts around here mentionning how quick some AA members are to react when the least inference of AA bashing arises. I am pretty sure that we AA's are a majority here. It is probably therefore more evident that we will rise quickly to defend our beliefs. As near as I can tell, I have never bashed anyone else's recovery tools. If I am wrong in that assumption, I hope to be called on it quickly. Is it just insecurity about one's honesty that compells one to denigrate and fabricate falsehoods? I suppose those are human attributes found in societies at large some would say. Still doesn't sound healthy to me. I am just dumbfounded by someone arriving to this forum and immediately posting in a negative fashion, usually in response to a particular post, and almost always directed at AA related concepts and ideas, while ignoring a hundred other posts filled with rich stories of hope, renaissance and encouragement. Many around here plead neutrality and engage in civil discussion. I reserve judgment on that. I am saying this. I feel most of the program bashing is directed at AA. We should therefore not be surprised to see AA members, myself included, rise to defend our tenets and principles. This amuses some people to no end I am sure. I deplore any SMART bashing I've seen. It is unfortunate but also retaliatory in nature. From what I've seen.
Thanks for letting me share. Done.

tramp

putting myself up for attack, i have to say, my opinion is that whenever i find myself rattling the sabers it is my own insecurity acting up. i don't need to defend what i know to be true. it doesn't need it.
perhaps if i am so unsure that i constantly feel the need to defend my beliefs i need some new beliefs?

Dan

Fair enough. But I don't feel insecure about my beliefs at all. Quite the opposite, I feel so secure about them I'm willing to defend them. You know, the Alamo and all that jazz.
Thanks.

Novemberphoenix

Hear, Hear!

I'll second that! Hey Chy where's a horse charging into battle smilie when you need one!

Have a goodnight all!

Novemberphoenix

tramp

don't take it so personally, i did say I, but, perhaps i need to calrify.
when I find MYSELF bashing, I need to look at MYSELF to see what the problem is.

you have to do what is given to you to do.

it's pretty much like staying clean, whatever works for you is ok by me.
i was merely trieng to offer you the reasons that I might behave in that particular manner.


i can remember trieng to set up NA meetings at an Alano club where i was active, and i was amazed at the resistance i met. the club could be rented to nearly anyone it seems, except NA.
reason won in the end, but i have always remembered the fear that caused the opposition. many there were old time drunks, and somehow what someone els did gained so much control of them that their very sobriety was threatened. i can see where they would be afraid. having done the same thing, in the same way for so many years, perhaps this would upset the balance, sending them all into oblivion.

i met with pretty much the same fear when i first showed up there, still in treatment. no one sponsored me, no one talked to me. i was told several times that " my kind " weren't welcome in "their" club. if you have heard me tell this story before, sorry for boring you, but I went to meetings with a fervor, sometimes twice a day, i made coffee, cleaned, baby sat single parents kids so that the adults could attend a needed meeting, set up for all city. the man who evemtually became my sponsor, a drunk who also happened to be a junky, guided me into the hearts of the membership. that ,and my pride. when they told me i would never make it, that was the challenge i could not let go unanswered. what had happened to me outside of AA and NA was so much more powerful, that moment whan my maker granted me release from my life long addictions, that i had to do this. it took a long time. i made some very good friends. i started on the path to spite them, but ended up doing it from love after all. so, once in awhile , i am bitter towards AA, just a little. i am human. sorry.
i can be bitter towards god in the same way. none of us are perfect. sometimes, in my best moments, I am actually able to feel compassion. i can step back from my sociopathic self and even if i can't quite understand another human beings point of view i can say, " that's ok he/she can feel that way." lol. like anyone needs my permission. i can understand that some feel threatened by aa, or na. i wasn't welcomed into the fold like the prodigal son. i was fortunate in early recovery to have not one, but two counselors who not only lived the biker lifestyle but also shared my religous convictions. they supported me in my recovery.AA is good, NA is good, psychology is good,
but I can never forget where the gift of my sobriety truly came from . there was no coffee, no warm room, no smiling faces. there was an empty, desolate mosquito infested road in northern Minnesota. there was a tired man who had lost the will to go on, and there was a God who gave him the hope to go on. I try not to seem like i am bashing the institutions, sometimes it seems like I am even to myself. what I really oppose is narrow mindedness. wherever it is . and i am guilty of that crime too, narrowmindedness.

Dan

It's all good tramp. You speak a lot of truths in your post. We are human and our experiences with the fellowship reflect that. Thanks for letting me glimpse at that desolate road.

Chy

I think that though we all have our varying opinions and beliefs what's important to remember that this site was established for those seeking options in reocovery. They come here like we all did trying to find a solution. Just as in many aspects of real life there will alway's be controversy.

Peter say's it well in his welcome post to this forum. We come here in the spirit of unity, all struggling to find a way to get and stay sober. We need to remember the most important person, the newcomer, will not alway's understand what the hoopla we impart is about when we try to impart our beliefs and opinions. This site was developed to find support, advice and guidance in the ugly battle against addiction. Remember it's important to embrace lovingly those that are seeking a solution, and respect the choices we make in what we feel will work for us as individuals.

Gooch

wow! look what I needed to hear this morning... You guys just reaffirmed my faith in the God of my misunderstanding.

I gotta go with both sides oif the coin here .. it's a little bit insecurity and some defense of belief mixed together


.. I think there s a JFT that talks about the character defect being one side of the coin, and the asset being the other.. the important thing to remember is it's the same coin.

I've missed reading your thoughts Tramp. For a looney ol scooter bum you share some good stuff.

sabar rattlers ..... been a while since I heard that .. "en'guarde' touche' mosiuer ***** cat!"

The Jay Walker

I don't know why there is bashing,
I do understand wanting to defend my program, when people make false statements about it.
I tried a lot of the other ways to stay sober , and they didn't work for ME, but they do work for some.

I need to remember that I can't get anybody sober, and I can't get anybody drunk.

and what works for me may not work for you.

Chy

AA is the only thing that worked for me. I want everyone to have what I have now. I know that's very unrealistic however. I try to remain openminded and respectful to varying views, because for me I'm content in my beliefs and what my program has done for me. Though I care very much for the fellow alcoholic, I have to take care of me first, and I've been given some valuable tools to do that. If somone opposes sharing what I have, I know to back off and allow them the space to find their own way, though sometimes, I'll try to nudge in my direction, because as I said, it's what worked for me.

Dan

Absolutely Chy! If you want to talk recovery with me and tell me what works for you, I'm totally yours. If you want to talf recovery with me and tell me what's wrong with my program according to you, pull up a chair, we gotta talk!

Dan

I found this on the web. Posted here only for the purpose of information and/or entertainment. Thanks.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/tocrw.htm#OTHER

Don S

Lifted from the link you provided....this is really a great quote.

Recovery Without God
(©1999 World Service Office, Inc.)

It seems that I've been searching all of my life for something to believe in. Finally, in 1982, after fifteen years of nonstop drug abuse, I crawled into the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. Though I was barely recognizable as a human being, I found in those rooms the hope that had eluded me for so long.

Upon receiving my first hug at my first NA meeting, I knew that I had come home. What I found especially appealing were the choices I had been given -- the choice to not use, just for today, and the choice to have a Higher Power of my own understanding. For the most part, not using just for today proved to be much easier than finding a Higher Power.

Over the years in recovery, I tried many different gods: Jesus, Buddha, Saraswati, Vishnu, and countless others. But I found that trying to believe in an intangible and invisible being or force left me empty and longing for more.

What worked for me in early recovery, as well as today, is using the group as a power greater than myself. Actually it is the unconditional love that I get from the group and members of NA that I believe is a Higher Power -- certainly greater than anything of which I'm capable alone.

Does this mean that I pray or meditate to the group? Of course not. Prayer is simply a petition, and meditation merely reflecting -- it does not have to be directed to anything, anyone, or any deity in particular.

How can I possibly have any purpose or meaning in my life without a god? I believe my purpose in life is to develop into the best me that I can be.

Finally, with what do I maintain a conscious contact, and from where do I seek comfort, if not a god? Today I find comfort in knowing that I am living a healthy, good, clean life and that I am not harming others or myself. I can maintain a conscious contact by holding love close to my heart.

I seek to do the right thing for the right reason. I attempt to move my life forward in a good, orderly direction, and I do my best to incorporate the principles of our steps, traditions, and concepts into each day, I stay close to the program by going to meetings and sharing with my sponsor and sponsees. Today I accept my humanity. I know I'm not perfect, just a perfect human being.

My most significant spiritual awakening was when I realized that the power is in me. I cannot rely on a mythical being or force to do for me what I cannot do for myself, nor do I wish to. After a lifetime spent trying to be everything to everyone, I now know that it begins and ends with me. I have to do the footwork, I must make the effort, and I need to seek the solutions.

As it states in It Works: How and Why, today I have the ability to "live with dignity, love myself and others, laugh, and find great joy and beauty in my surroundings." I believe that life is an adventure waiting for me to discover all of its intricacies, not something to dread. I embrace the life that NA has given me today, and in spite of all the pain, loss, grief, and fear that I've experienced over the years, I relish every waking moment. I love life today.

I recently read something that, for me, says it all: "The meaning of life is to live a life of meaning." Today, with the help of NA, its principles, the friends I've made, and the people I've met along the way, I'm capable of living such a life.

-- Anonymous Â*Â*

Dan

Beautifully... quoted Don!

mackat

or try 'up from down under'- p273, Basic Text

Don S

"if sMart works for you, then great, I hope it works better for you than it has for countless others that I see in A.A. meetings, who wasted so much of there time trying to stay sober using the sMart program.

Point is

if your not alcoholic, I would have no way of explaining the obsession to you anymore than I could explain it to all the couselors and such that I saw for years.

trust me, the obsession is real, and not just a nasty habit,
if you havn't been there just be gratefull,
but please dont try to tell the rest of us were wrong, just because you havn't been there. YET"
Jay Walker to me, July, 2003
Don S

The Jay Walker

Don

looks like wev'e become a lot more, accepting of other peoples views in the last 10 months or so,
I've seen some growth in you too.

Don S

I agree, Jay, and this demonstrates how greater knowledge usually leads to tolerance (hmmm, I can think of another thread where that might also apply...).

In a similar thread back then you commented that you didn't know much about SMART or RR; others thought they were the same thing. I came to this forum primarily because I didn't know much about AA. The more I know, the more varied I realize AA is; the more people learn about behavioral approaches, the more they see parts they can glean and use in a 12-step program.

Now, when someone in SMART makes an oversimplified comment about powerlessness or a higher power, I often comment that there are many in AA who have different approaches to those concepts. When others use the term 'religious', I've learned from Phoenix and Niner (among others) that 'spiritual' is a more accurate description.

Knowledge is the greatest danger to orthodoxy!

Yours for ecumenical recovery,
Don S

Dan

That one is priceless Don! Your post speaks volumes for the infinite possibilities when harmony is practiced amongst people of different viewpoints. Thank you for that.

mackat

youse guys are givin me goosebumples

How
Do I
Listen to others?

As if everyone were my Master

Speaking to me
His
Cherished
Last
Words.
-Hafiz