paul99

Not exactly the way Rene Descartes would end one of his scientific proofs or theorems, but no doubt we're in a different era.

I appreciate the enthusiasm you convey in your post, and while it doesn't jive with the way I approached my own recovery (which is all I can speak to), it's not invalid considering that you are still sober as of this writing. A great way of bringing people onto your side of reasoning is to show the merits and positives of what you're doing through experience rather than in showing the perceived faults and negatives of another method that hasn't been experienced.

Having mentioned that, I sincerely wish you the best luck in continuing in your program - keep it up.

fjd123

Well, it's been around for a long time, and the courts used it as a dumping grounds for DUIs and other alcohol related offences.

Things like SMART meetings don't get that kind of promotion, yet I think we can argue they are a viable alternative.

Frank

sugarbear1

fjd123, there's always room for more meetings in jails and institutions, why doesn't someone from SMART or other groups bring those meetings there?

Dee74

looks like they do SB.

SMART Recovery - For Correctional Facilities
D

hamabi

In the US, SMART has about 45 weekly meetings inside correctional institutions. That's well over 11% of their total f2f meeting number nationwide, so it's a major part of their efforts.

Since 2009, Australian high risk offenders with histories of severe violence or sexual maladaptive behaviors have been required to attend SMART meetings because they are more likely to benefit from the behavior modification techniques offered there, rather than seeking within AA for help regarding their more severe problems, something AA was never designed to do.

There is a push in the US to do the same for these types of men. I think everyone wants them to go to where they stand the best chance to learn the tools they need to eventually start to help themselves.

I strongly support this universally beneficial direction.

pkrma

I don’t think of this forum as place for debate over the efficacy of AA, or the existence of “God,” so I don’t really agree with the OP. But I think this post by Adillac shows a double standard that I see come up a lot here on SR, which is that AA/program recovery people get away with zealousness that nonprogram people would get slammed for.

God is an ambiguous term, if you want to redefine it to mean literally anything outside of oneself, well honestly then it’s a useless word at that point. “Higher power” is the concept many of us skeptics are uncomfortable with. I don’t think that I, or anyone else who is skeptical of AA, really need to explain why we feel this way. My disbelief in higher powers of any kind has nothing to do with alcoholism, but it is something that is an essential part of my identity, and it’s something in which I have firm conviction.

I think since I registered on SR.com I learned that if I want to be a positive member of this community, I’ve got to have restraint when it comes to posting my criticisms of other people’s approaches to sobriety. We all have a tendency to project our own experiences and views onto other people, it’s just human nature. But it’s wrong, no one human being knows all the truth about life, or what’s the best way to battle alcoholism.

So I’d say AA or no AA, doesn’t really matter to me, as long we can support each other, while also allowing everyone to be free to choose an approach that fits with their own sense of truth.

LadyinBC

Have you actually ever attended a meeting? If not then I don't see how you can judge it? Being a judgemental person got me in this mess to begin with!

People attending AA don't have to bring God into it at all. Where I live they have meetings morning, noon and night, so if I am having a bad day and really need something at least I can go and be with people who are also alcoholics and I'm not alone. It's better than not doing anything at all, or just sitting at home feeling sorry for myself. But that is just my opinion.

I am not going to get a sermon about God, but if someone wants to keep me in their prayers then I feel honored to be honest. If an athiest wants to keep me in their thoughts, I would be honored also. If someone cares enough about me to do that for me, why would I get offended because I don't believe in God or I do believe in God? It's called tolerance.

I totally agree that AA doesn't work for everyone and that everyone has to find their own way and path. For me personally, I can't just quit and not go to anything. But I don't critisize those that don't go. If it works for you that is great!

However, being closed minded about any program is detrimental to recovery in my opinion. Part of recovery is about learning and being open minded and opening yourself up to new ways. There are lots of people that go to AA, SMART and WFS. They do all of them because not every program has 100% of what they want.

And at the end of the day any program or way that keeps you sober is okay in my books.

MIRecovery

if I ever need a scientific solution to a non scientific problem you are the man I will talk to

ru12

Some people think they need programs, some don't. AA is an option and I am glad that it works for those it does. I am also glad that there are many other options for people that want to stop drinking alcohol. SMART and Rational Recovery are two of these. And I am glad there are options like Harm Reduction and Moderation Management for those who can or want what those programs offer. I'm for anything that can help people stop drinking destructively.

2granddaughters

That sentence to me is the crux of my problem.

I thought/believed that I KNEW what I needed and I was wrong. And I continued to err until I surrendered and started to listen to someone else.

All the best.

Bob R

noanxtime

Some of the craziest ideas, rituals, notions, beliefs, actions, etc work to keep people sober and focused on recovery.
Some pay homage to a 'last drink', others go places where drinking would be innappropriate (like an AA meeting or maybe a church service, a children's concert).
If it's 'scientific' to you and it works than go for it.
I am glad your post was not pulled, I don't attend AA, but have absolutely nothing against anyone who does.
I do however, kind of feel sorry for you and hope you find your way home - wherever or whatever that is - sober.

ru12

Then it is a good thing that your thoughts/beliefs changed and you found what works for you.

BackToSquareOne

The power of belief is an incredibly potent force that is an innate part of all of us. If A person has a strong enough desire to knock it off for good and they truly believe they can then their chances of success are good. That's just my opinion tho.

I think the biggest problem is that it's easy to confuse our personal belief systems/opinions as being universal truths. They are not. The only thing we have discovered is what worked for us and nothing more.

Leadfoot

It sure would be nice if people would spend a little more time with passing a message of what works and a little less time passing a message of what doesn't.

Xune

Therein lies the rub!

This thread was started by a moderately provocative post and the result?

Polite discourse that is filled with nuggets of pure gold for all those who read through!

2granddaughters

Yup, thinking the world is flat severely restricts your cruise-ship destination options.

I bet there were a lot of sailors in the early days who had their fingers crossed

All the best.

Bob R

lillyknitting

AA can be quite practical for example: don't pick up the first drink; it's the first drink that gets us drunk; stick with the winners; take what you want and leave the rest; don't pick up a drink, pick up the phone. And inside the yellow book it clearly states the cure for alcoholism is don't drink. AA for me is primarily a support group and when I've actually done what they say: hey presto, it worked, but, we have to put in the work ourselves, there's absolutely no substitute for HARD WORK.

Coldfusion

My signature explains my opinion.

Alcoholism is a disease of that same part of the brain that evolved to support our existence as social creatures. Alcoholics have a social disease, and need to learn spiritual principles to recover. Spiritual principles such as integrity and generosity are learned from living as functional members of society. In contrast, for example, fear and greed can be learned from dysfunctional life strategies such as alcoholism. One can learn the principles of living a sober life in a functional social group setting, such as AA meetings

ru12

"Alcoholics have a social disease, and need to learn spiritual principles to recover."

Coldfusion, the above may be true for you, but it certainly NOT the experience of many alcoholics. I do not have a disease. And I don't need spiritual principles to recover. I had a behavioral problem which I corrected by not drinking.

Geralt

The scientific approach helped me a lot. My 3 point mantra is:

- Alcoholism is progressive. I can never go back to a previous stage, like moderate drinking.
- Tolerance is forever. No matter how long I will quit, I will be back at the same drinking amount within days.
- The effect of kindling makes every withdrawal worse, till the stage of delirium tremens and possible death.

Combine those three scientific arguments and the only conclusion is that I can't and will not drink again, ever.

The most difficult part is to accept this conclusion and make peace with it. But once you accomplish it, drinking will be out of your life forever, as there is no logical justification for it.

I prefer the peace of mind of living the rest of life without alcohol, instead of the daily reminder: "I will not drink today."

So yes, the scientific approach can be effective.