Joe Nerv

Can someone please define it for me? I'm seeing a lot of talk about it, but never saw a clear definition for. Just did a title search but came up empty handed. Maybe I'm spelling it wrong.

2granddaughters

Lots of info when you Google it. "Kindling effect"

All the best.

Bob R

paul99

Never heard of it either until I got to SR.

Here's from Wiki:

"Kindling is the phenomenon where repeated alcohol detoxifications lead to an increased severity of the withdrawal syndrome. For example, binge drinkers may initially experience no withdrawal symptoms but with each period of resumption of drinking followed by abstinence their withdrawal symptoms intensify in severity and may eventually result in full blown delirium tremens with convulsive seizures. Alcoholics who experience seizures during hospital detoxification have been found to be much more likely to have experienced more previous alcohol detoxification episodes than alcoholics who did not have seizures. Those experiencing previous detoxification are more likely to have more medically complicated alcohol withdrawal symptoms. Kindling can cause complications and may increase the risk of relapse, alcohol-related brain damage and cognitive deficits. Chronic alcohol misuse and kindling via multiple alcohol withdrawals may lead to permanent alterations in the GABAA receptors.[24]
The mechanism behind kindling is sensitization of some neuronal systems and desensitization of other neuronal systems which leads to increasingly gross neurochemical imbalances. This in turn leads to more profound withdrawal symptoms including anxiety, convulsions and neurotoxicity.[6]
Binge drinking is associated with increased impulsivity, impairments in spatial working memory and impaired emotional learning. These adverse effects are believed to be due to the neurotoxic effects of repeated withdrawal from alcohol on aberrant neuronal plasticity and cortical damage. Repeated periods of acute intoxication followed by acute detoxification has profound effects on the brain and is associated with an increased risk of seizures as well as cognitive deficits. The effects on the brain are similar to those seen in alcoholics who have been detoxified multiple times but not as severe as in alcoholics who have no history of prior detox. Thus the acute withdrawal syndrome appears to be the most important factor in causing damage or impairment to brain function. The brain regions most sensitive to harm from binge drinking are the amygdala and prefrontal cortex.[25]
People in adolescence who experience multiple withdrawals from binge drinking show impairments of long-term nonverbal memory. Alcoholics who have had two or more alcohol withdrawals show more frontal lobe cognitive dysfunction than alcoholics who have experienced one or no prior withdrawals. Kindling of neurons is the proposed cause of withdrawal related cognitive damage. Kindling from multiple withdrawals leads to accumulating neuroadaptational changes. Kindling may also be the reason for cognitive damage seen in binge drinkers"

Therefore, booze = bad

Joe Nerv

This is why I still don't understand exactly what yer all talking about. Everyone seems very vague about exactly what the kindling effect is. I googled, and found a lot of definitions like the ones below. Yet whenever I see someone refer to it here, it doesn't seem to fit that definition. So I think I'm missing something. Not to reopen a can of worms, but somebody yesterday referred to the kindling effect in regard to the drinking of NA beers. I don't understand how one has anything to do with other.

drunkyjules

I guess I can say I've seen this in the hospital where I work. I was once with a patient going through HORRIBLE detox from alcohol.......it was terrifying to see......absolutely terrifying.

The doctor came in to check on him though and basically said everytime he goes through withdrawal that it will get worse and worse.

From the WIKI definition it sounds like it permanantly damages the brain and each time the brain is less able to handle it. It gets worse and worse. It is scary where alcohol can take us.

paul99

Yup - it just gets worse, in other words.

Joe Nerv

Thanks Paul. You were posting while I was posting. The definition you found was a little easier to digest than what I did. Got it.

Fernaceman

Fascinating. Thank-you! Makes me cringe that my favorites were, cough, benzos and alcohol. Towards the end even the slightest benzo binge caused massive insomnia and withdrawal. Incredible.

LDT

Yep....what Paul said.... gets worse every time you go through it . I had just one relapse in almost 2 years of sobriety...... and it did not take much alcohol to throw me into the worse withdrawal. I was a doubter of the Kindling effect before..... but no longer. It's as real as can be, and is enough to convince me not to test the waters again.

soberclover

I had never heard of this kindling effect until reading this post. Totally makes sense as far as having a better understanding of what has been happening over the past few years of my drinking...especially the last few months. My body and mind just could not handle alcohol. Now I just need to remember that when I get that creepy feeling on Friday nights that I really want to go "out and about".

Thanks everyone for the mini-education!

Adillac

My experience with the kindling effect: At first it would take weeks of heavy, daily drinking to induce light withdrawal. Within a few years, I would go into significant withdrawal after just two or three nights of drinking. Every subsequent withdrawal has been worse and lasted longer: voices, blackouts, two weeks worth of night sweats, etc.

Joe Nerv

Some questions. I'm sure I could research this and find the answers, but if someone already knows, this is far less time consuming. Any thoughts or answers to any of the following questions will be appreciated.

1. What exactly is considered detoxification in connection with this idea? If someone gets drunk every friday night, and doesn't drink during the week, is that considered detoxing? Or does the body have to have alcohol in it for a certain period of time before it can actaully qualify to be detoxed?

2. Is this something they've found to be universal, or something that only occurs in certain individuals?

3. Does any of this affect someone who is already sober, or even to somebody trying to get sober? Does this knowledge, in your opinion, help anyone in any way? The way I think I understand it, it can go a lot of different ways. If someone has knowledge of this it can help them realize that every time they put a drink down and pick it up again, it's gonna get worse... and hopefully act as a deterrant. The other side is that it can serve as a nice excuse for someone to keep picking up. "You don't understand how hard this has gotten for me!"

4. And finally, kinda related to my fist question.... I've seen people on this forum refer to the kindling effect in regard to sober people. Does it apply in any way? For example, if someone drank non stop for 5 years, then was sober for 10, is the intensity of the effect somehow multiplied?

I'm intrigued for some reason by this kindling stuff. I've a feeling there's some valuable information here, and I'd like to learn more. I know my experience was that in the beginning of my drinking I could function with no problem next day... that went progressively downhill, very quickly. Wondering too if this had anything to do with it. I also know people who never seem to go through any withrawl whatsoever. Can they just white knuckle it better, or is this something that just doesn't happen to them? I guess that would be question #5.

Andante

Hi Joe Nerv, I've read some of your other posts and like them

As someone who is fully "kindled," I do have some thoughts on this, but I may not be able to express them well -- part of my brain-damage package includes it being very hard for me to express concepts verbally. These thoughts are based on my experience only.

1. I think that for me, it took just the right of balance of periods of excessive drinking followed by periods of abstinence -- on the order of several days each. Drinking once a week probably wouldn't have done it.

2. I think that just as alcoholism occurs only in a small percentage of drinkers, "kindling" may occur in only a small percentage of alcoholics.

3. My experience is that once "kindled," even months of sobriety have had no effect on the severity of withdrawal symptoms upon resuming drinking. When it gets to be years, I'll get back to you with an update As I see it, its effect as a deterrent or an encouragement is irrelevant -- it is what it is.

4. It seems to be the process of repetitive withdrawal itself that does the damage. If you stay drunk all the time (more or less), it doesn't happen. My observation is that the effect is usually induced in people with more rapid cycles of drinking/sobriety than 5 or 10 years -- anything shorter than the order of several days, and you're effectively drunk all the time; anything longer, and you're not withdrawing often enough.

5. Like so much else, your mileage may vary. Just as there are heavy drinkers who never become alcoholics, there are alcoholics whose drinking behavior suggests that they should develop this "kindling" effect, but for some reason having to do with individual biochemistry or wiring or what have you, they don't.

My personal experience is that I've never had a seizure or a episode of DTs, but towards the end of my drinking career, the severity and duration of post-acute withdrawal symptoms grew radically worse each time I drank.

BackToSquareOne

If you think about it, you're dramatically altering your brain chemistry in the detox/sober cycles. The kindling theory suggests that a lot of the damage is incurred as the brain chemistry tries to normalize, each subsequent cycle adding to the cumulative damage.

Here's a couple of links : Alcohol Withdrawal Kindling

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...oKdf4YcwClzdRQ

Alcohol withdrawal syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joe Nerv

Thanks guys. The responses are appreciated. Will read all the info in the links tomorrow.