View Poll Results: Why do 19 out of 20 people in recovery fail?
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll
Recovery Failure Opinion Poll
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Addiction is complicated. Measuring outcomes for it is difficult as well. What is considered a success? If someone is drinking destructively and stops for 1 month is that a success? How about 1 year? 10 years? 20 years? Is the only acceptable outcome lifetime sobriety? What about if someone learns to moderate drinking, is that a success? If the binger goes from 20 drinks per episode to 3 is that a success? Is Harm Reduction a success? If someone routinely drives while drunk learns to not drive while drunk is that a success?
I think that lifetime abstinence is the goal for the people that cannot learn how to drink in moderation or prefer not to play around with alcohol anymore. That is my goal. I am only 2 years sober. I have no intention to ever drinking again. Will I make it? And if I fail and drink 1 glass of champagne at my daughters wedding in 20 years am I a failure? I don't have the answers. I do know that my life is better when I don't drink. I like me better as a sober member of society.
I think that lifetime abstinence is the goal for the people that cannot learn how to drink in moderation or prefer not to play around with alcohol anymore. That is my goal. I am only 2 years sober. I have no intention to ever drinking again. Will I make it? And if I fail and drink 1 glass of champagne at my daughters wedding in 20 years am I a failure? I don't have the answers. I do know that my life is better when I don't drink. I like me better as a sober member of society.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,435
This seems like a needlessly negative premise to me, Boleo.
I've been here on SR for 6 years...I've seen thousands of people pass through.
I don't keep a ledger, & I'm not a scientist...but I do have an idea of how many people go onto to successful lives on recovery...
Based on my experience what you call 'the failure rate' here in the poll is nothing like 95%.
D
I've been here on SR for 6 years...I've seen thousands of people pass through.
I don't keep a ledger, & I'm not a scientist...but I do have an idea of how many people go onto to successful lives on recovery...
Based on my experience what you call 'the failure rate' here in the poll is nothing like 95%.
D
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by ru12
What is considered a success?
Let's see...I started at 12, but drinking with serious consequences began at about 18. So from there I drank heavily for 5 years, quit for 10, drank for 7, quit for 6...so out of the 28 years since my "alcoholic" drinking began, I've been abstinent for 16 of those. That's roughly 60% yes? So what's the benchmark for success? 80%? 100%? Does none of it count if it's not continuous? Uh oh...then we have the "dry drunks"? Can you count them as really "sober"?
C'mon now. I don't care what the numbers say from where. It's a numbers game. There woul be no way to measure "success rate" with any degree of accuracy that would be accepted in the scientific community. Way too many variables.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Percentages aside, I think most people who go back to their addiction do so because sobriety doesn't make life easy, and some people are unable to find better coping mechanisms and life skills. Or some big life event makes them feel it's not worth the effort.
Most who make it, make it because they find the sober life better and more rewarding. Some people never get sober long enough, or develop new skills quick enough to keep recovery momentum.
Many people are mired in complex life situations where getting substance free is next to impossible.
Most who make it, make it because they find the sober life better and more rewarding. Some people never get sober long enough, or develop new skills quick enough to keep recovery momentum.
Many people are mired in complex life situations where getting substance free is next to impossible.
Recovered Alcoholic And Heroin
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New York
Posts: 24
Problem is this, over the years the Solution has been diluded,
HERES SOME GREAT INFO
But the fellowship, as it grew and got bigger and bigger and bigger they began to experience the power of fellowship, they then began
to question the need for the severity of the program in the book. And they said
Do you mean that we really have to turn ALL of our will and our life over to the care of God, as we understand him?
Can we give him the drinking and keep the rest?
Do you mean we are going to have to share ALL of our life story with another human being?
Hell God already knows about it, we know about it, why tell somebody else?
They began to say you mean we have to have God remove ALL of our character defects?
Hell we won’t have any personality left if he does!
And they began to talk about, do you mean we have to make amends to ALL those people we’ve harmed?
And they began to say such things as, well maybe we don’t need to do every bit of that.
Maybe me could take some of it, and leave some of it?
Maybe we can do it cafeteria style? Pick what we want, and leave that that we don’t want?
And along about that time came the great advent of the treatment centers. Now please don’t get us wrong, we have nothing against the
treatment center. They serve a worthwhile purpose. But in the treatment centers people begin to hear some other type of words and
some other languages. They begin to go into a group therapy thing and they begin to sit around the tables and talk about their
problems and they begin to develop such terms as the dysfunctional family. And they begin to use such words as chemical
dependency, and they began to talk about significant others, and they began to discuss meaningful relationships and they begin to talk
about dysfunctional sex, and they begin to talk about this and they begin to talk about that. And the program in the treatment center
wasn’t like the program in the book, “Alcoholics Anonymous”. Well naturally the new people from the treatment centers coming into
A.A. wanted to talk about what they knew to talk about is what they had learned in other places.
millions of
people
the program in the
fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous
the program in the book,
“Alcoholics Anonymous”
And slowly, slowly, slowly, the program in the fellowship began to change. And as the years went by, it began to change more and
more and more, until today sometimes you go to an A.A. meeting and if they didn’t read the preamble before the meeting, you
wouldn’t know what kind of meeting you’re in, because they talk about everything except alcoholism and recovery there from it. We
like to refer to those meetings as group depression meetings. You go in there feeling pretty good. Half way through the meeting you
might as well just go ahead and blow your brains out…hell it's not even worth living any longer.
So what we're going to be talk about this weekend is not the program in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous today.
We're going to talk about the program in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous,"
that the first one hundred used, which has never been changed.
The program in the fellowship has definitely changed.
The program in the book has never changed.
HERES SOME GREAT INFO
But the fellowship, as it grew and got bigger and bigger and bigger they began to experience the power of fellowship, they then began
to question the need for the severity of the program in the book. And they said
Do you mean that we really have to turn ALL of our will and our life over to the care of God, as we understand him?
Can we give him the drinking and keep the rest?
Do you mean we are going to have to share ALL of our life story with another human being?
Hell God already knows about it, we know about it, why tell somebody else?
They began to say you mean we have to have God remove ALL of our character defects?
Hell we won’t have any personality left if he does!
And they began to talk about, do you mean we have to make amends to ALL those people we’ve harmed?
And they began to say such things as, well maybe we don’t need to do every bit of that.
Maybe me could take some of it, and leave some of it?
Maybe we can do it cafeteria style? Pick what we want, and leave that that we don’t want?
And along about that time came the great advent of the treatment centers. Now please don’t get us wrong, we have nothing against the
treatment center. They serve a worthwhile purpose. But in the treatment centers people begin to hear some other type of words and
some other languages. They begin to go into a group therapy thing and they begin to sit around the tables and talk about their
problems and they begin to develop such terms as the dysfunctional family. And they begin to use such words as chemical
dependency, and they began to talk about significant others, and they began to discuss meaningful relationships and they begin to talk
about dysfunctional sex, and they begin to talk about this and they begin to talk about that. And the program in the treatment center
wasn’t like the program in the book, “Alcoholics Anonymous”. Well naturally the new people from the treatment centers coming into
A.A. wanted to talk about what they knew to talk about is what they had learned in other places.
millions of
people
the program in the
fellowship of
Alcoholics Anonymous
the program in the book,
“Alcoholics Anonymous”
And slowly, slowly, slowly, the program in the fellowship began to change. And as the years went by, it began to change more and
more and more, until today sometimes you go to an A.A. meeting and if they didn’t read the preamble before the meeting, you
wouldn’t know what kind of meeting you’re in, because they talk about everything except alcoholism and recovery there from it. We
like to refer to those meetings as group depression meetings. You go in there feeling pretty good. Half way through the meeting you
might as well just go ahead and blow your brains out…hell it's not even worth living any longer.
So what we're going to be talk about this weekend is not the program in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous today.
We're going to talk about the program in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous,"
that the first one hundred used, which has never been changed.
The program in the fellowship has definitely changed.
The program in the book has never changed.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Threshold
Many people are mired in complex life situations where getting substance free is next to impossible.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: East Coast, The States
Posts: 12,162
The only stat I know that I find reliable is this one: the longer you stay sober, the longer you are likely to have long-term sobriety. People who get to four plus years of continuous sobriety are highly likely to stay sober for life.
BUT that being said, I also can say this: I am glad I did not get too far looking into stats before quitting. The stats are not only questionable, they are also unnecessarily discouraging. The most important measure that counts, is this: How bad do I want it?
One other thing:
Quitting drinking is just the start of sobriety. Quitting drinking is not sobriety. Staying quit is sobriety. Hence by definition sobriety is a process. Just like our emotional, intellectual, spiritual and physical development is dynamic, so is sobriety. It is about personal best.
Sobriety is about what you know deep in your soul to be true.
Last I knew we can't measure that.
BUT that being said, I also can say this: I am glad I did not get too far looking into stats before quitting. The stats are not only questionable, they are also unnecessarily discouraging. The most important measure that counts, is this: How bad do I want it?
One other thing:
Quitting drinking is just the start of sobriety. Quitting drinking is not sobriety. Staying quit is sobriety. Hence by definition sobriety is a process. Just like our emotional, intellectual, spiritual and physical development is dynamic, so is sobriety. It is about personal best.
Sobriety is about what you know deep in your soul to be true.
Last I knew we can't measure that.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Severance Colorado
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by ThankGodForAA 
Alcoholics Anonymous - Forward to the 2nd
Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober
at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some
relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on
with A.A. showed improvement.
Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober
at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some
relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on
with A.A. showed improvement.
That's where the difficulty lies. "Really Tried" is the key. We've come to think of AA as nothing but meetings as opposed to a program that you should live your life by. So the simple act of going to AA meetings does not fit the definition of "Really Try". Even if it's every day. To this day I still believe the number to be around 75%. We still have to tie the "Really Try" to the stats.
Same goes for Rehab. Rehab has been regarded as a magic pill where rehab does all the work. We simply have to go. Again the "Really Try" comes into play.
"You mean I have some responsibility in this and I have to do something"?
Of those that have a desire to get sober and use their backbone as opposed to their wishbone I firmly believe that we're somewhere in the 95% ballpark.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 367
I'd say the #1 reason isn't on your survey. The reason people go back to drinking and drugging is that early sobriety sucks. Face it, it's like a death in the family and incredibly uncomfortable.
If the first couple months of sobriety were delightful everyone would stick through it.
After the first year or so I'd say reasons vary, but early on, it's because of the extreme discomfort.
If the first couple months of sobriety were delightful everyone would stick through it.
After the first year or so I'd say reasons vary, but early on, it's because of the extreme discomfort.
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
As far as surveys and statistics, I even went to a hospital to detox, and a government VA one at that. I have been sober for more than two years and never been asked to take part in any survey. Previously I spent almost 30 years in the Air Force and was never asked about drinking or recovery, and I was a counselor for part of that time in the alcohol rehab program.
Has anyone here ever participated in any survey about their drinking or quitting? I thought not. Every statistic about alcoholism is made up, conjecture, and accepted or rejected based on what one chooses to believe, IMNSHO.
Boleo I not only don't believe your statistics, I don't believe they are wrong either. To disagree with you is as fallacious a guess as yours, and no offense intended to you or them.
Surveys and building surveys involves making sure you haven't influenced the out comes. Likert scaling and other neutralizing techniques still can't erase the bias of the writers.
It is called "cherry picking" when one goes to research and throws out what they don't want to hear, and show as proof what agrees with their original bias. I just saw the four year sober gives you a high liklihood of staying sober for life quote. Who wrote that? Someone with 3.5 years sober, or 4.5. And has that person died slready to prove it was for life?
I can tell you a statistic you CAN take to the bank and draw interest on, figuratively speaking. 100% of those I can call me have only detoxed once with no relapses or excuses in more than two years. I am recovered. I knew that after I made it through detox. I knew it when I joined here and AA in my first two weeks out of detox. And all of those who have several years know exactly what I mean.
If your experience is sobriety didn't stick for you until after 10 detoxes and relapses,then it might make sense to you that many succeed or fail because you have. Or that since you made it, so can others.
Me, I will stick with the statistic I do know. 100% of me will make it sober and non smoking for life, or not. But more will make it, despite, because of, and regardless of statistics pro or con.
I do not need a statistic to make me feel better about failing, or succeeding at anything, especially sobriety.
Has anyone here ever participated in any survey about their drinking or quitting? I thought not. Every statistic about alcoholism is made up, conjecture, and accepted or rejected based on what one chooses to believe, IMNSHO.
Boleo I not only don't believe your statistics, I don't believe they are wrong either. To disagree with you is as fallacious a guess as yours, and no offense intended to you or them.
Surveys and building surveys involves making sure you haven't influenced the out comes. Likert scaling and other neutralizing techniques still can't erase the bias of the writers.
It is called "cherry picking" when one goes to research and throws out what they don't want to hear, and show as proof what agrees with their original bias. I just saw the four year sober gives you a high liklihood of staying sober for life quote. Who wrote that? Someone with 3.5 years sober, or 4.5. And has that person died slready to prove it was for life?
I can tell you a statistic you CAN take to the bank and draw interest on, figuratively speaking. 100% of those I can call me have only detoxed once with no relapses or excuses in more than two years. I am recovered. I knew that after I made it through detox. I knew it when I joined here and AA in my first two weeks out of detox. And all of those who have several years know exactly what I mean.
If your experience is sobriety didn't stick for you until after 10 detoxes and relapses,then it might make sense to you that many succeed or fail because you have. Or that since you made it, so can others.
Me, I will stick with the statistic I do know. 100% of me will make it sober and non smoking for life, or not. But more will make it, despite, because of, and regardless of statistics pro or con.
I do not need a statistic to make me feel better about failing, or succeeding at anything, especially sobriety.
lillyknitting
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Loughton, Essex, England
Posts: 638
My husband and especially my daughter never make amends to me when they've harmed me! Likewise my, well actually his, family do and say things to harm/upset me continually. What am I supposed to do about that prey tell? Herein lies the folly of AA thinking. Yes I've said some bad things whilst drunk and have felt tremendous remorse, but come on, have I got to apologize for that for the rest of my days, whereas so-called "normal" folk can just say what they like, behave towards me how they like an I've gotta put up with it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by lillyknitting
My husband and especially my daughter never make amends to me when they've harmed me! Likewise my, well actually his, family do and say things to harm/upset me continually. What am I supposed to do about that prey tell? Herein lies the folly of AA thinking. Yes I've said some bad things whilst drunk and have felt tremendous remorse, but come on, have I got to apologize for that for the rest of my days, whereas so-called "normal" folk can just say what they like, behave towards me how they like an I've gotta put up with it.
when someone says something that bothers me, the problem is with me and the steps find that problem in me.
what i did and still do about it is talk to my sponsor and work the steps.
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Originally Posted by lillyknitting
My husband and especially my daughter never make amends to me when they've harmed me! Likewise my, well actually his, family do and say things to harm/upset me continually. What am I supposed to do about that prey tell? Herein lies the folly of AA thinking. Yes I've said some bad things whilst drunk and have felt tremendous remorse, but come on, have I got to apologize for that for the rest of my days, whereas so-called "normal" folk can just say what they like, behave towards me how they like an I've gotta put up with it.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Leadfoot
Of those that have a desire to get sober and use their backbone as opposed to their wishbone I firmly believe that we're somewhere in the 95% ballpark.
Originally Posted by Itchy
100% of those I can call me
And I know exactly what you are saying. I knew I was done in detox, too.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 929
Originally Posted by Itchy
As far as surveys and statistics, I even went to a hospital to detox, and a government VA one at that. I have been sober for more than two years and never been asked to take part in any survey. Previously I spent almost 30 years in the Air Force and was never asked about drinking or recovery, and I was a counselor for part of that time in the alcohol rehab program.
Has anyone here ever participated in any survey about their drinking or quitting? I thought not. Every statistic about alcoholism is made up, conjecture, and accepted or rejected based on what one chooses to believe, IMNSHO.
Boleo I not only don't believe your statistics, I don't believe they are wrong either. To disagree with you is as fallacious a guess as yours, and no offense intended to you or them.
Surveys and building surveys involves making sure you haven't influenced the out comes. Likert scaling and other neutralizing techniques still can't erase the bias of the writers.
It is called "cherry picking" when one goes to research and throws out what they don't want to hear, and show as proof what agrees with their original bias. I just saw the four year sober gives you a high liklihood of staying sober for life quote. Who wrote that? Someone with 3.5 years sober, or 4.5. And has that person died slready to prove it was for life?
I can tell you a statistic you CAN take to the bank and draw interest on, figuratively speaking. 100% of those I can call me have only detoxed once with no relapses or excuses in more than two years. I am recovered. I knew that after I made it through detox. I knew it when I joined here and AA in my first two weeks out of detox. And all of those who have several years know exactly what I mean.
If your experience is sobriety didn't stick for you until after 10 detoxes and relapses,then it might make sense to you that many succeed or fail because you have. Or that since you made it, so can others.
Me, I will stick with the statistic I do know. 100% of me will make it sober and non smoking for life, or not. But more will make it, despite, because of, and regardless of statistics pro or con.
I do not need a statistic to make me feel better about failing, or succeeding at anything, especially sobriety.
Has anyone here ever participated in any survey about their drinking or quitting? I thought not. Every statistic about alcoholism is made up, conjecture, and accepted or rejected based on what one chooses to believe, IMNSHO.
Boleo I not only don't believe your statistics, I don't believe they are wrong either. To disagree with you is as fallacious a guess as yours, and no offense intended to you or them.
Surveys and building surveys involves making sure you haven't influenced the out comes. Likert scaling and other neutralizing techniques still can't erase the bias of the writers.
It is called "cherry picking" when one goes to research and throws out what they don't want to hear, and show as proof what agrees with their original bias. I just saw the four year sober gives you a high liklihood of staying sober for life quote. Who wrote that? Someone with 3.5 years sober, or 4.5. And has that person died slready to prove it was for life?
I can tell you a statistic you CAN take to the bank and draw interest on, figuratively speaking. 100% of those I can call me have only detoxed once with no relapses or excuses in more than two years. I am recovered. I knew that after I made it through detox. I knew it when I joined here and AA in my first two weeks out of detox. And all of those who have several years know exactly what I mean.
If your experience is sobriety didn't stick for you until after 10 detoxes and relapses,then it might make sense to you that many succeed or fail because you have. Or that since you made it, so can others.
Me, I will stick with the statistic I do know. 100% of me will make it sober and non smoking for life, or not. But more will make it, despite, because of, and regardless of statistics pro or con.
I do not need a statistic to make me feel better about failing, or succeeding at anything, especially sobriety.
They followed drunks who sought help and drunks who didn't seek help for 16 years.
They then published their findings...from that core group.
Other studies ( mentioned in 'Sober For Good') kept track of 40,000 drunks and published their findings.
You did not have to be interviewed for their findings to be valid...IT WAS NOT A RANDOM SURVEY.
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
I checked all of the choices.
I do know with my 31+ years that I am in the minority. I have seen it ongoing for
all these years in AA.
Lots of 6 months, lots of 1 year. Maybe a few less 2 year and so on, until you get
into the 'double digits' and the numbers are few compared to those with 2 years or
less. And this is not just at a particular meeting. I have seen it at a lot of different
meetings.
It is ALL up to the individual. Is the person willing to not only GIVE THEIR ALL, but
to continue to GIVE THEIR ALL the rest of their life to their recovery. Learning 'new'
ways to think, act and live.
I think the "Three 'UPs' for the alcoholic" that I heard all those years ago are still
very valid today:
1) Locked Up
2) Covered Up
or
3) Sobered up
with the majority being in the #1 or #2 category.
Recovery is not for the 'faint of heart' so to speak. Recovery is a lot of hard work
and investment in one's self.
I don't know if there will ever be a 'cure' for addiction, I am just very grateful to
this day, that there were people there for me when I was ready.
Love and hugs,
I do know with my 31+ years that I am in the minority. I have seen it ongoing for
all these years in AA.
Lots of 6 months, lots of 1 year. Maybe a few less 2 year and so on, until you get
into the 'double digits' and the numbers are few compared to those with 2 years or
less. And this is not just at a particular meeting. I have seen it at a lot of different
meetings.
It is ALL up to the individual. Is the person willing to not only GIVE THEIR ALL, but
to continue to GIVE THEIR ALL the rest of their life to their recovery. Learning 'new'
ways to think, act and live.
I think the "Three 'UPs' for the alcoholic" that I heard all those years ago are still
very valid today:
1) Locked Up
2) Covered Up
or
3) Sobered up
with the majority being in the #1 or #2 category.
Recovery is not for the 'faint of heart' so to speak. Recovery is a lot of hard work
and investment in one's self.
I don't know if there will ever be a 'cure' for addiction, I am just very grateful to
this day, that there were people there for me when I was ready.
Love and hugs,
*Grateful*
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 2,619
Because they are not willing to get and stay honest. Cuz they are not willing to stay in conscious contact and trust their higher power daily. Cuz they are not willing to see their part in stuff, only blame others. And cuz they were not willling to stop trying to fix others.
Those were my 4 biggies.
Those were my 4 biggies.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: East Coast, The States
Posts: 12,162
I know a few people who quit drinking while attending AA. Then they slowly stopped going to meetings completely but they have stayed 100% sober with positive changes in all areas of their lives. These people have told me that they occasionally run into people that they had known in the past from those AA meetings. Those people say: "Hey I remember you. You stopped coming. What happened to you? You don't LOOK like you've picked up." (Whatever that means.) And these people say: "I am still sober. I just do not go to AA meetings any more."
Now (without getting into debates about steps and what is recovery) my point is: I think there are lots of people who don't return to AA or who do not return to SR for that matter, who stay sober. Not seeing them at meetings or SR does not mean these people are not sober. In addition, unmeasurable amounts of people now get sober using AVRT, Smart Recovery, meditation, The easy way to quit drinking book, and other ways. I am one of these people. I don't think these people get into studies because they are not identified as alcoholics. Their doctors do not know. They are not diagnosed. They are not counted. Yet they are alcoholic and they recover.
I am one of those people. And I was without a shadow of a doubt, alcohol dependent, and halfway to ruining my life.
Now (without getting into debates about steps and what is recovery) my point is: I think there are lots of people who don't return to AA or who do not return to SR for that matter, who stay sober. Not seeing them at meetings or SR does not mean these people are not sober. In addition, unmeasurable amounts of people now get sober using AVRT, Smart Recovery, meditation, The easy way to quit drinking book, and other ways. I am one of these people. I don't think these people get into studies because they are not identified as alcoholics. Their doctors do not know. They are not diagnosed. They are not counted. Yet they are alcoholic and they recover.
I am one of those people. And I was without a shadow of a doubt, alcohol dependent, and halfway to ruining my life.
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