Boleo

I tried the "Don't drink no matter what" route hundreds of times (perhaps thousands). It worked for me perhaps 99% of the time. Trouble was alcohol tempted me dozens of times a day. 99% got me through a few weeks here and there but choosing not to drink never was a reliable solution for me.

Was it because I am week willed? - I quit smoking by using that technique. If anything I have too much will-power. Puking never stopped me from drinking. Jail never stopped me from drinking. Trips to the hospital never stopped me from drinking. Get my drift?

The "Spiritual Awakening" that I had as a result of surrendering the idea that I could one day learn to keep myself sober worked so well that it baffled me as to just how powerful a Higher Power could be. It was better than anything I could have planned myself.

For me, alcohol-ISM is a life and death matter - I want the most reliable recovery available. For me recovery is a life-long endeavor - I want the most comfortable recovery available. I am not interested in "pretty good" recovery for the same reason that I am not interested in "pretty good" brakes for my car.

I have watched a countless number of people with "pretty good" recovery based on making the right choice every day, simply make the wrong choice one day. Kind of like how I make the wrong choice to take my keys out of the ignition before I lock the car doors once in a great while. Thank God I don't have to live like that today. For me the choice is made ahead of time by a power I don't understand but trust just the same.

"The highest level of faith is trust in the absurd".
(Soreen Kierkegaard)

ru12

Glad you found what works for you. Not drinking regardless of other issues including spiritual works for me.

Sapling

I went into AA doubting anything would work for me....Thank God I didn't have people not working this amazing program trying to talk me out of it. It's worked for millions of people...Myself included....Keep an open mind...Listen...To people that have success in AA...And do what they did....That was my plan....And it saved and changed my life.

ru12

You know, you say this refrain often . . . that you're glad someone didn't try to talk you out of AA . . . well no one on this thread is trying to talk anyone out of anything. If your sobriety is based upon the fitness of your spiritual condition, what happens if you become spiritually unfit? Do you start drinking?

One thing that we might agree upon is that it is a good thing that we both found something that helped us stop killing ourselves with alcohol. Well I'm at least glad.

Sapling

I wish I didn't have too...But it's straight from the heart......Maybe you prefer confusing people...With a concept that wasn't real easy for me to swallow...I'm glad I wasn't on this site when I started AA...I was blessed to get my feedback from people that actually use the program.

soberlicious

??? I missed this? Why in the world would I try to talk someone out of or into anything?
True Dat...I'm glad too

TheEnd

I don't see anybody talking anybody out of anything. There are different rodes to the same place. What works for you is great! What works for the next person is great also! As long as no one is hurt in the process, it's all good!

Sapling

Let me ask you a question...Do you think you're helping someone trying to get the concept of powerlessness over alcohol...By telling them you have the power to do it on your own...Don't get me wrong...I'm thrilled that you do...I'm talking about the guy that doesn't...Kind of like myself. Is that useful advice?

yeahgr8

So if you believe that why would you be on a site like this? Simply make the choice to not drink like all the normal drinkers do the world over? I know a load of normal drinkers and they wouldn't even mention cutting down alcohol consumption nor relate to anyone who said they went through a phase of drinking too much because they have the choice to drink or not drink, alcohol is as little a concern to them as whether they choose to eat an apple or not...

TheEnd

Not sure who you are talking to, but lets look at it like this. Alcoholism is viewed as an illness or disease by medical community, whichever you want to call it. A serious illness for that matter. How many people do you know who get diagnosed with other serious illnesses such as Cancer just take one doctor's opinion? Usually, someone would meet with a number of doctors to see if they needed surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation. Sometimes you will need combination of these to cure you. Sometimes you will start on one treatment and find out that you need something else to supplement. So if that is the case, why should somene only hear one perspective on how to deal with alcoholism? How is this harming them? I think it is educating them to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak.

Sapling

I see this stuff posted in the 12 step forum...Every thread that mentions AA outside it...Wouldn't you think if someone felt they could to this on their own will power they would have already done it....I don't get it...A lot of Alcoholics go to AA because nothing else worked....How is it harming them?....I guess you would never know that...You know why I don't post in AVRT threads....Because I don't use it...And I have nothing to offer. Do whatever you want....I'll say it again....I'm forever grateful...I realized I was Powerless...With the help from people who had been Powerless.

miamifella

In medicine, there is no one cure that always works any particular illness. With persistent maladies, often many forms of treatment have to be tried.

It does not denigrate or harm one treatment to acknowledge the existence of others. In fact, it often helps bring hope to know that if this treatment does not work, there are others we can try after it.

So why is alcoholism and addiction any different? It does not reduce the effectiveness of chemo to acknowledge that surgical procedures are also available. And vice versa. So why is it so often taken as an assault on one treatment to state that others can also help?

Should we not just be happy that there are a wide enough variety of recovery programs to help people of all types with all kinds of addiction?

Years ago, I was in despair in 12-step programs because they did not work no matter how much I tried to do everything I was told. I wish there had been sites like this to let me know that I did not have to give up hope just because one form of recovery did not work for me.

I know that when I post, I think of the person suffering, feeling that there is no way out. I suspect that ALL of us have that person in mind. And I am sure none of us care much what type of recovery treatment he/she uses---as long as it works for that person!

We are all on the same side here.

Joe Nerv

Wow! Wasn't expecting all this. My $.02 on it all... (edit: came out to about $.49 after I was done writing)...

Unless we know we're about to die in he next 10 minutes, not one of us can say with absolute certainty that we will never drink again. We can will it, we can want it, we can declare it with all the determination in the world, but not a single one of us can guarantee it. And regardless of how any one chooses to label it, we all only have a daily reprieve. Does that mean we live in fear of alcohol? No. Not me at least. Does it mean I'm constantly on guard against the first drink? In a sense that I feel I have to maintain certain principles in my life that keep me growing, yes, but as far as a conscious thought about alcohol, absolutely not. I don't think about drinking. I don't have any desire to drink. I'm in and around it more than most because of the work I do, and alcohol is a non issue for me. I have a choice whether I want to drink or not, and every day for close to 29 years now I've chosen not to.

The reason alcohol is what it is, kills like it kills, and destroys countless families and lives like it does, is because some people can't simply make a choice to put the drink down and be done with it. Those who feel it's a matter of just making their minds up to be done with it and stop, are not made of the same material that I and many others are. There was no choice in active alcoholism for me to drink or not. I had to drink. If that wasn't your experience, then lucky you. Really. I'd say then god bless you, but.... we know where that could go.

For those of us who couldn't simply choose to not drink, I believe in the idea of alcoholism being a 3 fold affliction. People used to talk a lot about it being a pysical, mental, and spiritual illness, but I don't hear much about that any more. What I'm about to write is my opinion on this idea, so nobody is required to agree.

I believe any of us can stay sober by getting healthier in any single 1 of those 3 categories. I also believe that if I want to maintain my sobriety my greatest guarantee will come from my maintaing health in all 3 of those areas. And the way I'm wired there's an order of priority.

Spritual Health: That comes first for me. When I'm spirtually fit, I feel everything else falls right into place. And IMO the greatest guidelines for spiritual fitness ever put together by man is the 12 steps. For someone else it might be something entirely different. For me they're simple and concise instructions for getting right with myself, my god, and others. I also believe that a lot of people with no belief in a higher power lead spiritual lives, yet don't define it as such. They reach for a power within as opposed to "some ubiquitous power outside", they get right with themselves, the people around them, and they do their best to give a little back to the world. Take all this away from anyone, and I believe they become an excellent candidate to drink again. A mean, selfish person with a bunch of secrets who goes around inflicting pain on others has a very slim chance of maintaining continured sobriety. IMO.

Mental Health: I believe someone can get and keep themselves sober by getting themselves mentally healthy. The non secular community on this forum proves that. When I got sober I had an extension cord around my neck due to chronic severe depression that wasn't going away, and I was unable to walk out my front door due to panic and anxiety issues. I was full blown agoraphic, and in dire need of mental help. If that hadn't gotten any better there is no chance I'd have stayed sober. I wouldn't have wanted to. Thankfully for me the healing for all that came from my total surrender and reaching out to a higher power I admittedly still don't undersand (yet call god for lack of a better word). I wasn't offered medication which I would have taken in a heartbeat. Prozac was yet to be invented. I was given principles to follow, I did, and I began to slowly heal. Once the blaring issues simmered down I had to continue with therapy, reading books, relaxation techniques, CBT, and a bunch of other things that I learned and continue to utilize in order to maintain my mental health. Do I do these things because I'm afraid of being ambushed by a bottle of vodka? That's absurd. I do it because I want to be happy, and if I'm happy chances are good I'm never going to have a desire to pick up a drink.

Physical Health: Again, some people can get sober by just getting it together physically, but I think this is the most tenuous sobriety. And it's what came as a final part of the picture for me. If I stuff my face with sugar and coffee all day while sitting in front of the computer or TV, I'm not going to be feeling all that great. My brain, in turn is affected by such abuse. Nuff said on that, because this post is becoming epic. Could say a lot more as there are many other way the physical aspect applies. Would love to get into the idea that alcoholics are physically different than non problem drinkers, but that's a whole nuther can of wiggly things.

I don't believe the guy in my OP was attacked by alcohol. I'm baffled that he did what he did though, and while I have no desire or intention to ever drink again I'm going to continue to work on growing to be a happier, stronger, and healthier person. I'll take the humble position of believing that there is a chance that if I don't, I might change my mind one day and make the insane choice of picking up a drink. Right now, this is my choice.

miamifella

Just because someone is not in AA does not mean they are "doing it on their own."

Most of us have done it without 12-step fellowships had a lot of help from religious communities, shrinks, SMART, AVRT, etc.

Nor does it mean that people believe that they have power over alcohol. I think that for me I had to take responsibility for my actions when high--but that is simply an ethical choice. It does not mean that I think I am more powerful than my addiction. I treat my actions as a choice...even when influenced by addiction...because I think that is the moral thing to do.

ReadyAndAble

I hear where you're coming from. The OP's in AA, and I'm not going to question the tenets of someone's program on their own thread (especially since AA has benefited so many people I know).

That said, powerless is a hotly debated topic outside of 12-step programs, and so it's not surprising to see it hotly debated outside of SR's 12-step forums.

I assume the warden will spring into action if it gets too rough out here in general population.

ReadyAndAble

A lot of us say exactly that, Joe. See, now you're questioning a core tenet of my recovery...

Sapling

I guess I'm baffled...Why the constant need to debate it?...Don't you think if someone looking into AA figured they had the power to do it on their own....They'd be looking that direction?

Joe Nerv

My apologies if this is one of the core beliefs of the non secular community. I was unaware of it, and if it works, that's great. I personally don't see how anyone can make such a claim as none of us can predict the future. I can say I'll never drink again, I can believe I'll never drink again, I can want to never drink again, but how can I possibly guarantee it won't happen? I can't control the future, nor guarantee anything that's going to happen in the next 5 minutes. I don't get it, but I'll accept that others do if it's helping them to stay sober.

TheEnd

Exactly my point. I have been to 3 months of Rehab, currently go to therapist, have attended AA, studied some AVRT, and like the principles of Racing for Recovery, started by my friend Todd Crandell. I kind of like the eclectic approach to recovery. What works for someone may not work for the next person. I think it's great to know we live in world that has so many different approaches to fix a problem. One size does not fit all.

ReadyAndAble

I know I'm not going to drink same way I know I'm not going to become a priest or go buy a bunch of polka albums. I know myself, Joe.

I think we'd all be better off if we stuck to what we know, which is ourselves.