I Don't Think Alcoholism is Real
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Originally Posted by ru12 
Ethyl alcohol is a colorless liquid with the molecular formula C2H6O, a boiling point of 78.73 C, vapor pressure of 5.95 kPa at 20 C, and is a psychoactive drug. It is inanimate and therefore cannot be cunning, baffling, power and or patient. I often wonder why people feel the need to anthropomorphise this particular liquid.
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Originally Posted by ru12
It is inanimate and therefore cannot be cunning, baffling, power and or patient. I often wonder why people feel the need to anthropomorphise this particular liquid.
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Originally Posted by ru12
Ethyl alcohol is a colorless liquid with the molecular formula C2H6O, a boiling point of 78.73 C, vapor pressure of 5.95 kPa at 20 C, and is a psychoactive drug. It is inanimate and therefore cannot be cunning, baffling, power and or patient. I often wonder why people feel the need to anthropomorphise this particular liquid.
It is simply what people do.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Interesting thread.
My take is that for each their personal perception becomes their reality and each of us only know what we can know and cannot know what we do not.
As I have aged and seen my own perceptions and realities change as I learn more about our universe and everything within I know how little I do know.
And so it goes... with our human selves arguing among ourselves about spirituality and whether it is a disease when clearly no one knows except God (if you believe in Him/Her/It )
The fact is that our perceptions are constantly filtered through our own thoughts, feelings, emotions and past experiences. We filter through our culture and upbringing and education.
It is a worthy reminder to offer ourselves to beware of our perceptions and conclusions. We are always wise when we soften judgment and allow compassion to shape our perceptions.... because there is the tiniest possibility that maybe we are not 100% right as we are so sure!
In my own case with alcoholism everything I used to argue about years ago I now know I was dead wrong...period. I won't go into it but I was an insufferable know it all just because I had an alcoholic family of origin and collect alcoholics by my own dysfunction (or used to anyway).
Do we really think we are going to figure out the most baffling disease (yes I do think it is a disease by some definations) on the planet? I mean...some of the brightest and most educated men and women on the planet are all over the place on this subject... as well as those of us who suffer from alcoholism from a personal standpoint.
Patience, tolerance and humility might be considered. Each must find their own path and their own way out. Some of us choose to let pain an consequences knock us about like a pinball machine because of our stubborness. That was me... but not anymore.
Frankly I don't know. But I can sure share some E, S and H on some incredible miracles I have witnessed... lots of them! if you want to do what they did... just ask me
My take is that for each their personal perception becomes their reality and each of us only know what we can know and cannot know what we do not.
As I have aged and seen my own perceptions and realities change as I learn more about our universe and everything within I know how little I do know.
And so it goes... with our human selves arguing among ourselves about spirituality and whether it is a disease when clearly no one knows except God (if you believe in Him/Her/It
)The fact is that our perceptions are constantly filtered through our own thoughts, feelings, emotions and past experiences. We filter through our culture and upbringing and education.
It is a worthy reminder to offer ourselves to beware of our perceptions and conclusions. We are always wise when we soften judgment and allow compassion to shape our perceptions.... because there is the tiniest possibility that maybe we are not 100% right as we are so sure!
In my own case with alcoholism everything I used to argue about years ago I now know I was dead wrong...period. I won't go into it but I was an insufferable know it all just because I had an alcoholic family of origin and collect alcoholics by my own dysfunction (or used to anyway).
Do we really think we are going to figure out the most baffling disease (yes I do think it is a disease by some definations) on the planet? I mean...some of the brightest and most educated men and women on the planet are all over the place on this subject... as well as those of us who suffer from alcoholism from a personal standpoint.
Patience, tolerance and humility might be considered. Each must find their own path and their own way out. Some of us choose to let pain an consequences knock us about like a pinball machine because of our stubborness. That was me... but not anymore.
Frankly I don't know. But I can sure share some E, S and H on some incredible miracles I have witnessed... lots of them! if you want to do what they did... just ask me
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
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Do I think it's a disease?
Not really, but it can cause problems with body, mind, soul and affect everyone around you more negatively than any disease i know of. That being said, I would choose it over cancer any day. The cure is to quit drinking.
Not really, but it can cause problems with body, mind, soul and affect everyone around you more negatively than any disease i know of. That being said, I would choose it over cancer any day. The cure is to quit drinking.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WA
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The Disease Model around addiction could keep medical academics in debate for days.
Here is one definition of disease:
"A disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, esp. one that produces specific signs or symptoms.
A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people".
All I Know is that my father died of alcoholism after being dry for over 10 years. I was headed the same way. I have also been to enough remote aboriginal communities where substance abuse has taken a generation to realize alcohol is as effective a disease as small pox, yellow fever or TB (which is one of reasons it was given to aboriginals by the early settlers). You won't find a single health worker in these places now that calls it anything other than a medical and a social disease.
Realizing my own alcoholism is a disease has actually helped me. For every incurable disease there is still a treatment. In this case complete abstinence backed up by faith, respect and honesty and some simple steps is working for me. Reading and hearing the stories of survival from others also makes me appreciate I'm not alone.
Here is one definition of disease:
"A disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, esp. one that produces specific signs or symptoms.
A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people".
All I Know is that my father died of alcoholism after being dry for over 10 years. I was headed the same way. I have also been to enough remote aboriginal communities where substance abuse has taken a generation to realize alcohol is as effective a disease as small pox, yellow fever or TB (which is one of reasons it was given to aboriginals by the early settlers). You won't find a single health worker in these places now that calls it anything other than a medical and a social disease.
Realizing my own alcoholism is a disease has actually helped me. For every incurable disease there is still a treatment. In this case complete abstinence backed up by faith, respect and honesty and some simple steps is working for me. Reading and hearing the stories of survival from others also makes me appreciate I'm not alone.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by sofie
Whether it is a disease or not it causes enough horrible problems for people and ruins lives. Does it really matter if you know it makes ones life difficult?
To say it is not a disease is calling the millions suffering from it sinners. To say it does not exist is a disgrace to the countless millions that have died from this affliction.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by breath
I tried to do what you've done exactly every day since I was 19 years old, and I couldn't, and howdy did I try, every day; I failed, every day. Once I found the resources and solutions I got better 19 months ago, at the age of 52. 52-19=12,045 attempts! Maybe it's not a disease, I really don't care. What I do know is alcohol is cunning, baffling, powerful and patient. Count yourself as one of the few who was able o do it as you describe. One question, if you've done so well what brings you here to SR?
If I think about the same thing for myself, I guess I got drunk about 1500 or so times in my life. And alot of those, probably the majority, I blacked out. Maybe if I kept drinking and got to 1600 or 1700 or 2000 or 10000 more times I would have finally figured out the key to drinking like or normal person, or maybe I would have settled into a pattern of drinking occasionally but never getting drunk by some chance of luck. And maybe this would have lasted for the rest of my life.
Maybe alcoholism isn't real. It could just be we haven't tried hard enough to figure out how to drink responsibly. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, alcoholism could be a myth.
But, if I don't know whether or not alcoholism is real, then I'm just going to assume it is real, and that I'm an alcoholic. Because if it's guess either way, there are far fewer consequences to me guessing I'm an alcoholic. As an alcoholic, all I have to do is quit drinking to guarantee that I'll never black out and pass out in a ditch or wake up in a hospital bed, or kill someone while driving drunk.
But if I guess that alcoholism is a myth and I might as well keep drinking til I figure out how to control it, well there's no guarantees with that.
It's a pretty simple choice in my mind. I risk nothing by quitting drinking, I risk everything by not quitting drinking. Quitting isn't easy, that's why we have this forum, we need each others support. But to me it doesn't matter if alcoholism is real or not, I know that best way for me to live my life is to remain sober.
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I agree with Pkrma. It's much more important to get sober at some point than it is to fail enough times through all the years to get to the point where everything changes and we suddenly and forever after can have a few without experiencing negatives.
Most of us are within a very short drive of where people are under care and often die week after week from what could possibly be a real myth. Thinking over our friends and families some of us know many who bought into this myth in the worst possible ways.
Near my hometown was an old mass grave where they dumped dozens of alcoholics. The sanitarium was torn down in the early '30s, another useful answer for that time gone away. When in the area I stop and read the names on the plaque off silently. Not many cared about them or the subject at the time, it was dismissed or avoided in polite conversation.
The easy way to handle this subject has always been to doubt it's existence, and disremember the people who suffered. But, there's that grave sitting up back near the fence with the big plaque.
Most of us are within a very short drive of where people are under care and often die week after week from what could possibly be a real myth. Thinking over our friends and families some of us know many who bought into this myth in the worst possible ways.
Near my hometown was an old mass grave where they dumped dozens of alcoholics. The sanitarium was torn down in the early '30s, another useful answer for that time gone away. When in the area I stop and read the names on the plaque off silently. Not many cared about them or the subject at the time, it was dismissed or avoided in polite conversation.
The easy way to handle this subject has always been to doubt it's existence, and disremember the people who suffered. But, there's that grave sitting up back near the fence with the big plaque.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
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Originally Posted by Boleo
Please! Let's not turn this into another endless moot debate ....
To say it is not a disease is .... To say it does not exist is ....
To say it is not a disease is .... To say it does not exist is ....
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It depends on your definition of disease, I suppose. One person might be looking at a medical dictionary and decide alcoholism does not meet that definition. While another can look at themselves and decide that they are sick when they drink in many ways -- mind, body, emotionally, spiritually. And so that second person rightly concludes that drinking, for them, causes illness, causes various forms of 'disease'. If a person is sick when they drink, and not sick when they don't drink, and struggling with addiction to something that actually makes them physically ill, then that sounds like a common horse-sense definition of disease to me, even if a doctor or scientist or extremely detail-oriented rational thinker might disagree or want to debate the medical definition.
It is often self-diagnosed and the alcoholic can of course prescribe for themselves the cure to that disease -- to abstain. And so that makes it seem less like a disease to some because you don't get MRI images to diagnose it or pills to cure it, and because the knowledge of the problem and will to change it are such important aspects of the thing. But that would seem to me to be a narrow view of the whole person. A whole person is the sum total of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions. A disease that affects all of those parts of a person is, to me personally, no less a disease than one that affects only physical systems and is treated with pharmaceuticals. On the other hand, I also don't subscribe to the idea that one absolutely must believe they have a disease in order to admit they have a problem or quit drinking. YMMV.
It is often self-diagnosed and the alcoholic can of course prescribe for themselves the cure to that disease -- to abstain. And so that makes it seem less like a disease to some because you don't get MRI images to diagnose it or pills to cure it, and because the knowledge of the problem and will to change it are such important aspects of the thing. But that would seem to me to be a narrow view of the whole person. A whole person is the sum total of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions. A disease that affects all of those parts of a person is, to me personally, no less a disease than one that affects only physical systems and is treated with pharmaceuticals. On the other hand, I also don't subscribe to the idea that one absolutely must believe they have a disease in order to admit they have a problem or quit drinking. YMMV.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Originally Posted by Fandy
I wouldn't call anyone with an addiction a *sinner*, that is judgmental.
It's an interesting thread.
It's an interesting thread.
Now... before everyone gets all twisted and ready to have an epic religious battle... I am kidding. Really.
Back to the original question at hand and another fact to add to the mix.
But...if alcoholism isn't real and there are just millions and millions of confused people that just "think" they are alcoholic it begs the question as to the millions of people that die each year from alcoholism and alcohol related deaths.
Could they just think they are dead? Could that be an illusion? A myth?
Did anyone catch that alcohol is now the third leading cause of death in the world?
THE THIRD LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN THE WORLD! And it is not cancer or some other physical disease that you simply cannot control... think about that for a minute.
Think about how we view cigarettes. Think about the new ads we are showering the world with that show the horrors of smoking on your body.
The third leading cause of death in the world! That is an absolutely crazy scary statistic that just came out a few weeks ago and it got no press. NONE. No one cared.
I am not trying to miinimize what happened at the school where kids were tragically killed and the media went ballistic... the nation went on the warpath against guns. One attack is too many of course but it is disproportionate how there is no interest among the public on the seriousness of alcoholism and its effects on society.
Kids suffering all over the world (I was one), people dying tragically... millions... and not hardly a peep. I don't even think a thread was started on this website.
I am still scratching my head at how strangely we love and hate alcohol in society and are willing to turn a blind eye to the carnage, devastation, illness and death it causes.
But... the facts... the stats... the coffins... I think they probably tell the story about alcoholism. All those people didn't die cause they wanted to...
bona fido dog-lover
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How about changing the words in Boleo's post a bit. To say it isn't a disease is to call the millions of alcoholics 'bad people', not to use the word 'sinners'. When I was drinking I wasn't a bad person, just a badly addicted person.
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