My research on "Doing it alone"
My research on "Doing it alone"
Hi all,
I've been very busy (which is good), but I keep my own personal research on alcohol abuse going because it is the number one priority in my life to maintain a period of abstinence; importantly it isn't my *whole* life. Understanding is my entire raison d'être.
I've approached my drinking problem openly by examining every single alternative open to me, keeping my mind free of whatever pre-conceived prejudices I might have.
I often spend my odds and ends of time in the Queensland state library with my laptop (I love my iBook). I read through much of the material at hand on alcohol abuse, and approach it much as a scientist would - given I have a thorough grounding in science at university.
I'm thoroughly developing an article based on my research, as unqualified in these matters perhaps as the most untutored counsellor or AA convener.
I do wish to publish the article - the more and more I research the more I find three or four different camps (or schools of thought). One thing that has been touched on is what will the new generation do, with regards to these drug abuse problems?
As I research I feel that the new generation are becoming more and more savvy to the more 'conventional' means of treatment. Furthermore they are beginning to reject these 'conventional' treatments out of hand. Also conventional treatments that exist today will probably not survive the test of time, mainly due to the improvement in medicine, and the abandonment of stilted texts and dogmas developed in the 20th century.
This is just a glance, perhaps an unwelcome one to some ppl - please I ask you to keep an open mind. I'm thinking the literature might perhaps take up to 12 months to write and proof read etc. Optimistically I'm looking at 3 months, but of course life gets in the way. I don't feel overwhelming urgency to complete the study; however I do want to share my experience, and will gladly if I might be so bold as to send the text to various friends here, to comment on.
ps: 29 I'm a caterpillar, 30 I'm a butterfly.
I've been very busy (which is good), but I keep my own personal research on alcohol abuse going because it is the number one priority in my life to maintain a period of abstinence; importantly it isn't my *whole* life. Understanding is my entire raison d'être.
I've approached my drinking problem openly by examining every single alternative open to me, keeping my mind free of whatever pre-conceived prejudices I might have.
I often spend my odds and ends of time in the Queensland state library with my laptop (I love my iBook). I read through much of the material at hand on alcohol abuse, and approach it much as a scientist would - given I have a thorough grounding in science at university.
I'm thoroughly developing an article based on my research, as unqualified in these matters perhaps as the most untutored counsellor or AA convener.
I do wish to publish the article - the more and more I research the more I find three or four different camps (or schools of thought). One thing that has been touched on is what will the new generation do, with regards to these drug abuse problems?
As I research I feel that the new generation are becoming more and more savvy to the more 'conventional' means of treatment. Furthermore they are beginning to reject these 'conventional' treatments out of hand. Also conventional treatments that exist today will probably not survive the test of time, mainly due to the improvement in medicine, and the abandonment of stilted texts and dogmas developed in the 20th century.
This is just a glance, perhaps an unwelcome one to some ppl - please I ask you to keep an open mind. I'm thinking the literature might perhaps take up to 12 months to write and proof read etc. Optimistically I'm looking at 3 months, but of course life gets in the way. I don't feel overwhelming urgency to complete the study; however I do want to share my experience, and will gladly if I might be so bold as to send the text to various friends here, to comment on.
ps: 29 I'm a caterpillar, 30 I'm a butterfly.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Hey Pandy,
Good to hear from you. Sounds like you're really into your work and enjoying it. One thing for sure, as long as you're in the library researching, you're not somewhere else drinking. That's the trick!
I'm happy for you and glad you're doing well.
Yank hugs to you.
Good to hear from you. Sounds like you're really into your work and enjoying it. One thing for sure, as long as you're in the library researching, you're not somewhere else drinking. That's the trick!
I'm happy for you and glad you're doing well.
Yank hugs to you.
Hole in the soul
Good topic to research. I beileve Alcohol addicition is mutifaceted when looked at in the ways it affects a person. It spreads its tenticles deeply into all areas of our lives. I think it effects us body,soul and spirit and unless delt with on all those levels treatment is incomplete. Its a mind altering substance changing our brain chemisrty. It also effects our soul.....,emotions,mind and will. Then it sinks deeper into our real inner person...our spirits. Many who just deal with one aspect of healing never really completely treat the whole problem. Once that is dealt with then there are certain principles we can apply to lead us on into life and we can grow. I dont attend AA but find it amazeing how closely the 12 steps follow the Bible.
" Just before the dismal abyss of drunken ruination from which most never return there remains one hitching post which has held strong through out the test of time. To this post many have tied thier lives to stop the decent into alcohols powerful destruction. Its roots go back thousands of years and needs no defense. Inscribed in some sort of Elvish upon the post are these two simple lines. Realizing I was powerless over Alcohol I turned my life over to the higher power. A testament to which no amount of modern knowledge or research will ever supplant "
From Chronicles of a True Drunk Chpt 3 page 5
( ficticious of course)
Steve
" Just before the dismal abyss of drunken ruination from which most never return there remains one hitching post which has held strong through out the test of time. To this post many have tied thier lives to stop the decent into alcohols powerful destruction. Its roots go back thousands of years and needs no defense. Inscribed in some sort of Elvish upon the post are these two simple lines. Realizing I was powerless over Alcohol I turned my life over to the higher power. A testament to which no amount of modern knowledge or research will ever supplant "
From Chronicles of a True Drunk Chpt 3 page 5
( ficticious of course)
Steve
Last edited by Me2; 01-15-2004 at 09:41 AM.
Hi Steve,
The more I do research (very early days at the moment), yes! the more I find that the 12 step is strongly based on the text of the Bible. From the AA meetings I attended, it was hard not to notice the residual zeal for low church liturgy and ritual.
There's a quote from American psychologist and philosopher William James, that the only known cure for dipsomania *is* religiomania.
Personally I'm not religious, but I recognise the superior wisdom contained in the tenets of the Bible. There is no doubt in my mind that if you live life faithfully according to these tenets, than you will have a good happy life; regardless of belief in God, sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
Now *if* the AA program is basically a watered down, then distilled version of the Bible - kind of like the 12 easy steps for dummies type of book (forgive me, intolerably ill put), *then* it's hard not to wonder if the message is being obfuscated (like Chinese whispers).
So we arrive at AA recovery rates. Low or high? Research will tell the story at the end of the day.
Of course in terms of other facets of treatment for addiction, such as cognitive therapy, there are similar questions to the effectiveness of such treatment. Low or high?
---------end of research side of story-----
Now, I've come across 12 step programs for all sorts of whacky things. Addicted to sex? Can't stop stuffing your face with pizza (no not just any food, specifically pizza)? Addicted to wide open spaces? Addicted to claustrophobically small places? Addicted to TV, or else internet chat?
Well in swarms the 12 steppers, FIRST STEP: admit you are POWERLESS over Pizza! etc, etc...
All very amusing, but sad in a way because it's true.
But yes Steve you are right in that it is multi-faceted, this alcohol addiction. One could even argue that by giving up alcohol and becoming a staunch AA member might just be trading one affliction, with another.
Personally I feel that I can decide on what principles I live by to achieve a happy and worthy life. The trouble is if you're spoon fed principles to live by, you're bound not to understand them (particularly if the said principles were ill fitting to start off with), and will inevitably not live by them.
I don't like seeing ppl failing after 5, 10, even 20 years, due to this. There is a great dignity in choosing your own principles to live your life by, and adhering to them. I don't think there is any secret to sobriety. You are *not* powerless over alcohol. Just like you are *not* powerless over pizza! It's self defeating, and harmful. You can choose to rob a bank if you want to, or even murder someone. Everyone has the capacity to do this. The overwhelming majority don't. But accepting that you are in fact capable of robbing a bank, even if you knew you would get away with it is part of being human. Thou shall not steal, is a powerful principle to live by, isn't it? As are many other principles you'll find in ancient texts from China, India, Europe, in fact all around the world.
The more I do research (very early days at the moment), yes! the more I find that the 12 step is strongly based on the text of the Bible. From the AA meetings I attended, it was hard not to notice the residual zeal for low church liturgy and ritual.
There's a quote from American psychologist and philosopher William James, that the only known cure for dipsomania *is* religiomania.
Personally I'm not religious, but I recognise the superior wisdom contained in the tenets of the Bible. There is no doubt in my mind that if you live life faithfully according to these tenets, than you will have a good happy life; regardless of belief in God, sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
Now *if* the AA program is basically a watered down, then distilled version of the Bible - kind of like the 12 easy steps for dummies type of book (forgive me, intolerably ill put), *then* it's hard not to wonder if the message is being obfuscated (like Chinese whispers).
So we arrive at AA recovery rates. Low or high? Research will tell the story at the end of the day.
Of course in terms of other facets of treatment for addiction, such as cognitive therapy, there are similar questions to the effectiveness of such treatment. Low or high?
---------end of research side of story-----
Now, I've come across 12 step programs for all sorts of whacky things. Addicted to sex? Can't stop stuffing your face with pizza (no not just any food, specifically pizza)? Addicted to wide open spaces? Addicted to claustrophobically small places? Addicted to TV, or else internet chat?
Well in swarms the 12 steppers, FIRST STEP: admit you are POWERLESS over Pizza! etc, etc...
All very amusing, but sad in a way because it's true.
But yes Steve you are right in that it is multi-faceted, this alcohol addiction. One could even argue that by giving up alcohol and becoming a staunch AA member might just be trading one affliction, with another.
Personally I feel that I can decide on what principles I live by to achieve a happy and worthy life. The trouble is if you're spoon fed principles to live by, you're bound not to understand them (particularly if the said principles were ill fitting to start off with), and will inevitably not live by them.
I don't like seeing ppl failing after 5, 10, even 20 years, due to this. There is a great dignity in choosing your own principles to live your life by, and adhering to them. I don't think there is any secret to sobriety. You are *not* powerless over alcohol. Just like you are *not* powerless over pizza! It's self defeating, and harmful. You can choose to rob a bank if you want to, or even murder someone. Everyone has the capacity to do this. The overwhelming majority don't. But accepting that you are in fact capable of robbing a bank, even if you knew you would get away with it is part of being human. Thou shall not steal, is a powerful principle to live by, isn't it? As are many other principles you'll find in ancient texts from China, India, Europe, in fact all around the world.
Me Again
This is my personal oppinion only and in no way meant as any thing else..let the reader understand.
Well I just got back from Barnes and Noble with my wife.Its a major book store. Shes an avid reader and they had lots of books on recovery. There are lots of books espousing a million different ideas out there.Some say you arent over powered. Some say you can actually learn to be free and drink again. I think that that view point is prideful and self centered. We live in a world where self self self runs rampant. In saying one is powerless over alcohol isnt like saying one negates his responsibility for putting the bottle to his lips. Both are simultaneously true at the same time,to a large degree thats at the heart of the issue.Thats really what rights the code that our humanity then follows.Its a paradox of sorts. I think what most groups who use the 12 step program are trying to say is " surrender is recognition that we need someone else to help free us". If self will and good intentions were enough we probably wouldnt even be haveing this discussion. I dont even go to AA....But I like the 12 steps. I do go to Church though. I do know one thing and I have tested it in my own life,,,,and read about people who relapse. You can never drink again once youve been overcome by Alcohol...what frightens me about modern psychology and a lot of these new free thinkers is that they actually believe you can logically think your way out of addiciton...that would be like a cow stuck in a bog trying to think his way out of his deliema...sadly it just aint gonna happen...Steve
Steve
Well I just got back from Barnes and Noble with my wife.Its a major book store. Shes an avid reader and they had lots of books on recovery. There are lots of books espousing a million different ideas out there.Some say you arent over powered. Some say you can actually learn to be free and drink again. I think that that view point is prideful and self centered. We live in a world where self self self runs rampant. In saying one is powerless over alcohol isnt like saying one negates his responsibility for putting the bottle to his lips. Both are simultaneously true at the same time,to a large degree thats at the heart of the issue.Thats really what rights the code that our humanity then follows.Its a paradox of sorts. I think what most groups who use the 12 step program are trying to say is " surrender is recognition that we need someone else to help free us". If self will and good intentions were enough we probably wouldnt even be haveing this discussion. I dont even go to AA....But I like the 12 steps. I do go to Church though. I do know one thing and I have tested it in my own life,,,,and read about people who relapse. You can never drink again once youve been overcome by Alcohol...what frightens me about modern psychology and a lot of these new free thinkers is that they actually believe you can logically think your way out of addiciton...that would be like a cow stuck in a bog trying to think his way out of his deliema...sadly it just aint gonna happen...Steve
Steve
Originally posted by panadolsandwich
Personally I feel that I can decide on what principles I live by to achieve a happy and worthy life. The trouble is if you're spoon fed principles to live by, you're bound not to understand them (particularly if the said principles were ill fitting to start off with), and will inevitably not live by them.
Personally I feel that I can decide on what principles I live by to achieve a happy and worthy life. The trouble is if you're spoon fed principles to live by, you're bound not to understand them (particularly if the said principles were ill fitting to start off with), and will inevitably not live by them.
But until you have attended meetings, regularly, read and studied the Big Book for Alcoholics Anonymous, found a sponsor and completly and honestly worked the steps how dare you insinuate that anyone is incapable of understanding the principles in which we live by. It's best until you have fully researched this program that you base your opinions on pure hypothesis and not said "pan truths" .
I am all for open discussion on any one program that works, but when you start implying the people that work this program are incapable of following their own heart and mind because they misunderstand or don't understand a program which you've never fully practiced, then your preaching to the wrong choir here friend.
Work the program or any program you are researching for a minimum of one year, then I'll listen to your research and opinions on such matters.
I think all your research is interesting, it's good to see someone who can challenge something so inherent in all of our lives. I actually just graduated in Psychology so I find your research interesting and invigorating. Now, weather I choose to listen to it or not is another, but it is good to see different angles from a scientific viewpoint and not just blind faith.
It actually took me a long time to try and adhere to AA's steps. I Psychologized Everything in the program. I even tried to tell myself, well...if I tell myself I'm an alcoholic, I will be an alcoholic...yeah, in the end I was only rationalizing my excuses for drinking.
To admit that you are powerless over something doesn't necessarily say to me that you have no power, just that your mind has a tendancy to treat alcohol as if it has power over you. Alchohol is not a living breathing person. The problems are in our mind and in our bodies. I don't think it has anything to do with being powerless over anything, it's our minds view and ya know, if you can't handle being around it or can't stop drinking once you start, no matter what the intention; that in itself is a pretty powerless feeling to me.
I don't personally feel I am powerless over liquor itself, but once I take that first sip, my mind is crippled to it's effects and I crave more and more no matter what the intention. That makes me feel feel powerless.
So...ya know, AA is all taken however you want to interpret it for yourself. I say, if it works for someone then it's useful no matter what the relapse rate is. People keep coming back and keep wanting help and it keeps helping, I think that's all that really matters.
Stacey
It actually took me a long time to try and adhere to AA's steps. I Psychologized Everything in the program. I even tried to tell myself, well...if I tell myself I'm an alcoholic, I will be an alcoholic...yeah, in the end I was only rationalizing my excuses for drinking.
To admit that you are powerless over something doesn't necessarily say to me that you have no power, just that your mind has a tendancy to treat alcohol as if it has power over you. Alchohol is not a living breathing person. The problems are in our mind and in our bodies. I don't think it has anything to do with being powerless over anything, it's our minds view and ya know, if you can't handle being around it or can't stop drinking once you start, no matter what the intention; that in itself is a pretty powerless feeling to me.
I don't personally feel I am powerless over liquor itself, but once I take that first sip, my mind is crippled to it's effects and I crave more and more no matter what the intention. That makes me feel feel powerless.
So...ya know, AA is all taken however you want to interpret it for yourself. I say, if it works for someone then it's useful no matter what the relapse rate is. People keep coming back and keep wanting help and it keeps helping, I think that's all that really matters.
Stacey
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, pan,
There was a thread on this forum back in the spring which discussed the religious and spiritual components of AA. I found it very helpful, and it caused me to change my vocabulary when discussing AA.
The historical origins of AA in the Oxford Movement, etc., are well- documented. This research document from the Religious Movements Project has great footnotes and bibliography, so you might find it helpful:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/aa.html
And there's another thread over on the AA forum here debating the use of the Lord's Prayer at meetings. That is, in my opinion, about the most Christian prayer there is--but some folks wonder why if causes discomfort in attendees.
So it's not surprising that you find some biblical allusions in the 12 Steps, eh?
You wrote, "So we arrive at AA recovery rates. Low or high? Research will tell the story at the end of the day. " That end may be a long ways away!
Here are two quotes from individuals prominent in addiction research:
"As [a researcher] said after trying to ascertain for 10 years the efficacy (if any) of AA on scientific grounds: 'It helps those that it helps.' On the other hand, the 12-Step method can and has been utilized in a number of non-AA applications (such as the MATCH Study, which used a 12-Step facilitation [TSF] approach, utilizing 1:1, 1-hour counseling sessions supplemented by voluntary, but encouraged, AA group attendance)."
So we have the added problem of distinguishing between AA and TSF, and a real dearth of statistical data to review. It's that darn anonymity thing getting in the way of empirical data! And, of course, defining successful recovery is a problem--after all, lots of folks successfully go from heavy drinking to moderate drinking as they get older.
A more succinct quote (no, I won't say who said it!):
"The effectiveness of AA is unknown. Period.
The first evidence regarding the effectiveness of 12-step based treatment was not published until 1996 (Project Match), and the evidence since has been mixed."
As you can see from Chy's reply above, generalizing to the particular can be offensive when there are people in the conversation from the group you are generalizing about.
More to the point, in my opinion ANY recovery system is likely to work if
--the individual makes a commitment to abstinence,
--makes lifestyle changes to enhance that commitment,
--can accept enough of the group's world view without stretching his or her own beliefs, and
--is patient and persistent.
--Planning and practicing for drinking situations can be enhanced by the support a group provides--or by forum boards, online meetings, or a supportive friend, spouse or family.
But please update us as you continue your research!
Thanks for posting....
Don S
There was a thread on this forum back in the spring which discussed the religious and spiritual components of AA. I found it very helpful, and it caused me to change my vocabulary when discussing AA.
The historical origins of AA in the Oxford Movement, etc., are well- documented. This research document from the Religious Movements Project has great footnotes and bibliography, so you might find it helpful:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/aa.html
And there's another thread over on the AA forum here debating the use of the Lord's Prayer at meetings. That is, in my opinion, about the most Christian prayer there is--but some folks wonder why if causes discomfort in attendees.
So it's not surprising that you find some biblical allusions in the 12 Steps, eh?
You wrote, "So we arrive at AA recovery rates. Low or high? Research will tell the story at the end of the day. " That end may be a long ways away!
Here are two quotes from individuals prominent in addiction research:
"As [a researcher] said after trying to ascertain for 10 years the efficacy (if any) of AA on scientific grounds: 'It helps those that it helps.' On the other hand, the 12-Step method can and has been utilized in a number of non-AA applications (such as the MATCH Study, which used a 12-Step facilitation [TSF] approach, utilizing 1:1, 1-hour counseling sessions supplemented by voluntary, but encouraged, AA group attendance)."
So we have the added problem of distinguishing between AA and TSF, and a real dearth of statistical data to review. It's that darn anonymity thing getting in the way of empirical data! And, of course, defining successful recovery is a problem--after all, lots of folks successfully go from heavy drinking to moderate drinking as they get older.
A more succinct quote (no, I won't say who said it!):
"The effectiveness of AA is unknown. Period.
The first evidence regarding the effectiveness of 12-step based treatment was not published until 1996 (Project Match), and the evidence since has been mixed."
As you can see from Chy's reply above, generalizing to the particular can be offensive when there are people in the conversation from the group you are generalizing about.
More to the point, in my opinion ANY recovery system is likely to work if
--the individual makes a commitment to abstinence,
--makes lifestyle changes to enhance that commitment,
--can accept enough of the group's world view without stretching his or her own beliefs, and
--is patient and persistent.
--Planning and practicing for drinking situations can be enhanced by the support a group provides--or by forum boards, online meetings, or a supportive friend, spouse or family.
But please update us as you continue your research!
Thanks for posting....
Don S
Originally posted by Don S
Hi, pan,
More to the point, in my opinion ANY recovery system is likely to work if
--the individual makes a commitment to abstinence,
--makes lifestyle changes to enhance that commitment,
--can accept enough of the group's world view without stretching his or her own beliefs, and
--is patient and persistent.
--Planning and practicing for drinking situations can be enhanced by the support a group provides--or by forum boards, online meetings, or a supportive friend, spouse or family.
But please update us as you continue your research!
Thanks for posting....
Don S
Hi, pan,
More to the point, in my opinion ANY recovery system is likely to work if
--the individual makes a commitment to abstinence,
--makes lifestyle changes to enhance that commitment,
--can accept enough of the group's world view without stretching his or her own beliefs, and
--is patient and persistent.
--Planning and practicing for drinking situations can be enhanced by the support a group provides--or by forum boards, online meetings, or a supportive friend, spouse or family.
But please update us as you continue your research!
Thanks for posting....
Don S
As some of you know, I was very, very dubious about the religious component of AA. However, despite my home group meeting being in a church hall as I have attended meetings my problem with this had become less. It is not overtly religious, though there are one or two members who have found god.
I have accepted that I am powerless over alcohol (that's how I ended up here ), that there is a higher power and that AA is helping me.
I still attend the local drug and alcohol group and am guided by the AA's own saying - take what you can use and leave the rest. To me it does not matter what the method is as long as I control alcohol and that I can find some peace, AA is helping me do this.
I have accepted that I am powerless over alcohol (that's how I ended up here ), that there is a higher power and that AA is helping me.
I still attend the local drug and alcohol group and am guided by the AA's own saying - take what you can use and leave the rest. To me it does not matter what the method is as long as I control alcohol and that I can find some peace, AA is helping me do this.
Hey Pan.
I think this is interesting. I read through the thread and was noticing that there are different types of learners here. Pan, you are more anylitical than I am. I am more visual and spacial (sp)
I am not as pretty a talker as ya all so I found something that fits with what I want to say but can't put it in words myself. It is a bit long but.........
How People Learn
by Don Elkington
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How can you say that? How can you even think that?"
"You mean you study with the radio on? That would never work for me."
"Can you believe it? That guy didn`t get our point at all!"
How often have you heard people question the ways in which other people learn? As a trainer have you ever caught yourself saying anything like the comments above? As Klas Mellander (author of "The Power Of Learning: Fostering Employee Growth") has said: "The purpose of training is to make learning possible." So, as trainers, we need to make sure that we understand how our adult students learn. The problem is, it isn`t easy to quantify.
"Adults don`t fit into neat categories... I never seem to fit tightly into any single box when I submit to those style assessments... I don`t even look out of the same Johari window all the time." … Ora A. Spaid in the book "The Consummate Trainer: A Practitioner`s Perspective"
Try asking a group of people how to spell a difficult word. Watch what they do...some close their eyes and whisper to themselves, some appear to be writing with an invisible pen, some hunt around for paper so they can write with a real pen or pencil. You see? Some people hear the spelling, some see it, and some feel it.
So if adults learn differently, what should we, as trainers, do to help? How can we possibly serve the learning needs of our students? There are two common sense answers to the question.
The first answer is asking them. A good trainer can use activities, instruments, or discussion to discover how students prefer to learn. The second answer is to make sure that you have a solid understanding of the commonalties of adult learners. There are certain basic things that you can take for granted when helping adults learn.
The Learning Process
Here`s the learning process in a nutshell. Attention makes us receptive to information, which we process together with prior knowledge, until we arrive at conclusions and understanding, which we then apply and test for confirmation.
Attention
The first thing a trainer should do is get the learner`s attention. I`m not talking about a joke or a shout, both proven attention-getters. I`m talking about helping the learner understand why today`s training is important to them. Why should the learner work hard to master this stuff? If you can answer that, you are well on your way.
Information
Since most groups of adults have a variety of learning styles, the training information needs to be presented in a variety of ways. Use written words, visuals, audio, live action, practice, etc. There needs to be a mixture within every session. If that were not the case, if everyone learned the same way, we could just give everyone a book and be done with it.
Process With Prior Experience
All adults compare new information with their previous knowledge and experience. As a trainer you need to give learners the chance to reflect, question, and compare. Perhaps you could use small group discussions to give learners the chance to draw from their past and link it to today`s information. A smart trainer builds this step into the program, because the learners are going to do it anyway. How many times have you heard learners say things like: "This isn`t the way we did it before." "When I worked at Freddie`s Fish House we did it this way." "I just wasn`t raised to see things this way." It makes common sense that a trainer will allow the learners to discuss these thoughts in an open and supportive way.
Conclusions And Understanding
It is the learner`s job to draw conclusions for themselves about how the training will be used. All learners have their own unique perspective, experience, and learning style, and that will affect how they finally understand the training. The trainer`s job is help the learners move through the material in an orderly and effective way, giving them time to practice new skills, and draw their own conclusions.
Application And Testing
After training is over, the learners will go back to work and try to decide if the information they received in training is worthwhile or just a pile of compost. No trainer looking over their shoulder, no flip charts, no videos, no prizes, and no doughnuts. The learner will experiment, test, and ultimately accept or reject the training. There is nothing the trainer can do to stop them. So, the common sense trainer builds this into the program. Encourage learners to experiment. During the follow-up phase of the program, the trainer can check on the experimentation and eventual application of the training.
Feelings
There is another issue that clouds the adult learning process...adults have feelings. Adults usually manage to look calm and rational, especially at work, but the prospect of training can stir deep feelings. For those of you who read The Hobbit earlier in life, you may remember this quote: "He had a feeling that the answer was quite different and that he ought to know it, but he could not think of it. He began to get frightened, and that is bad for thinking."
When dealing with learning, especially with adults, it is important to address the feelings the learners may have. So, what feelings may be present? The long list could include:
Anger
Anxiety
Depression
Embarrassment
Excitement
Fear
Frustration
Happiness
Resentment
It makes sense, then, that a smart trainer will plan for the emotions that accompany learning. Plan for an environment that encourages, welcomes, and rewards the sharing of feelings.
Poetry As Summary
Looking at ourselves as trainers it is important to ask, "Why do I do what I do?" Here are some thoughts on teaching and learning from the Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. The first time I read this poem I was disturbed that it didn`t rhyme. I now realize that this is a translation from the original Danish (I wonder if it rhymes in Danish?). Look at yourself, what is your motivation for being a trainer?
If we wish to succeed
in helping someone to reach a particular goal
we must first find out where he is now
and start from there.
If we cannot do this,
we merely delude ourselves
into believing that we can help others.
Before we can help someone,
we must know more than he does,
but most of all,
we must understand what he understands.
If we cannot do that, our knowing more will not help.
If we nonetheless wish to show how much we know,
it is only because we are vain and arrogant,
and our true goal is to be admired,
not to help others.
All genuine helpfulness
starts with humility before those we wish to help,
so we must understand
that helping
is not a wish to dominate
but a wish to serve.
If we cannot do this,
neither can we help anyone.
If you`d like more information, feel free to contact me via e-mail ([email protected]) or by phone (901-751-3553).
I think this is interesting. I read through the thread and was noticing that there are different types of learners here. Pan, you are more anylitical than I am. I am more visual and spacial (sp)
I am not as pretty a talker as ya all so I found something that fits with what I want to say but can't put it in words myself. It is a bit long but.........
How People Learn
by Don Elkington
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How can you say that? How can you even think that?"
"You mean you study with the radio on? That would never work for me."
"Can you believe it? That guy didn`t get our point at all!"
How often have you heard people question the ways in which other people learn? As a trainer have you ever caught yourself saying anything like the comments above? As Klas Mellander (author of "The Power Of Learning: Fostering Employee Growth") has said: "The purpose of training is to make learning possible." So, as trainers, we need to make sure that we understand how our adult students learn. The problem is, it isn`t easy to quantify.
"Adults don`t fit into neat categories... I never seem to fit tightly into any single box when I submit to those style assessments... I don`t even look out of the same Johari window all the time." … Ora A. Spaid in the book "The Consummate Trainer: A Practitioner`s Perspective"
Try asking a group of people how to spell a difficult word. Watch what they do...some close their eyes and whisper to themselves, some appear to be writing with an invisible pen, some hunt around for paper so they can write with a real pen or pencil. You see? Some people hear the spelling, some see it, and some feel it.
So if adults learn differently, what should we, as trainers, do to help? How can we possibly serve the learning needs of our students? There are two common sense answers to the question.
The first answer is asking them. A good trainer can use activities, instruments, or discussion to discover how students prefer to learn. The second answer is to make sure that you have a solid understanding of the commonalties of adult learners. There are certain basic things that you can take for granted when helping adults learn.
The Learning Process
Here`s the learning process in a nutshell. Attention makes us receptive to information, which we process together with prior knowledge, until we arrive at conclusions and understanding, which we then apply and test for confirmation.
Attention
The first thing a trainer should do is get the learner`s attention. I`m not talking about a joke or a shout, both proven attention-getters. I`m talking about helping the learner understand why today`s training is important to them. Why should the learner work hard to master this stuff? If you can answer that, you are well on your way.
Information
Since most groups of adults have a variety of learning styles, the training information needs to be presented in a variety of ways. Use written words, visuals, audio, live action, practice, etc. There needs to be a mixture within every session. If that were not the case, if everyone learned the same way, we could just give everyone a book and be done with it.
Process With Prior Experience
All adults compare new information with their previous knowledge and experience. As a trainer you need to give learners the chance to reflect, question, and compare. Perhaps you could use small group discussions to give learners the chance to draw from their past and link it to today`s information. A smart trainer builds this step into the program, because the learners are going to do it anyway. How many times have you heard learners say things like: "This isn`t the way we did it before." "When I worked at Freddie`s Fish House we did it this way." "I just wasn`t raised to see things this way." It makes common sense that a trainer will allow the learners to discuss these thoughts in an open and supportive way.
Conclusions And Understanding
It is the learner`s job to draw conclusions for themselves about how the training will be used. All learners have their own unique perspective, experience, and learning style, and that will affect how they finally understand the training. The trainer`s job is help the learners move through the material in an orderly and effective way, giving them time to practice new skills, and draw their own conclusions.
Application And Testing
After training is over, the learners will go back to work and try to decide if the information they received in training is worthwhile or just a pile of compost. No trainer looking over their shoulder, no flip charts, no videos, no prizes, and no doughnuts. The learner will experiment, test, and ultimately accept or reject the training. There is nothing the trainer can do to stop them. So, the common sense trainer builds this into the program. Encourage learners to experiment. During the follow-up phase of the program, the trainer can check on the experimentation and eventual application of the training.
Feelings
There is another issue that clouds the adult learning process...adults have feelings. Adults usually manage to look calm and rational, especially at work, but the prospect of training can stir deep feelings. For those of you who read The Hobbit earlier in life, you may remember this quote: "He had a feeling that the answer was quite different and that he ought to know it, but he could not think of it. He began to get frightened, and that is bad for thinking."
When dealing with learning, especially with adults, it is important to address the feelings the learners may have. So, what feelings may be present? The long list could include:
Anger
Anxiety
Depression
Embarrassment
Excitement
Fear
Frustration
Happiness
Resentment
It makes sense, then, that a smart trainer will plan for the emotions that accompany learning. Plan for an environment that encourages, welcomes, and rewards the sharing of feelings.
Poetry As Summary
Looking at ourselves as trainers it is important to ask, "Why do I do what I do?" Here are some thoughts on teaching and learning from the Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. The first time I read this poem I was disturbed that it didn`t rhyme. I now realize that this is a translation from the original Danish (I wonder if it rhymes in Danish?). Look at yourself, what is your motivation for being a trainer?
If we wish to succeed
in helping someone to reach a particular goal
we must first find out where he is now
and start from there.
If we cannot do this,
we merely delude ourselves
into believing that we can help others.
Before we can help someone,
we must know more than he does,
but most of all,
we must understand what he understands.
If we cannot do that, our knowing more will not help.
If we nonetheless wish to show how much we know,
it is only because we are vain and arrogant,
and our true goal is to be admired,
not to help others.
All genuine helpfulness
starts with humility before those we wish to help,
so we must understand
that helping
is not a wish to dominate
but a wish to serve.
If we cannot do this,
neither can we help anyone.
If you`d like more information, feel free to contact me via e-mail ([email protected]) or by phone (901-751-3553).
Thanks Ratnel - great information. I'm an educator (special Ed), and am always aware of different learning styles. Ever check out Howard Gardner multiple intelligences? Cool stuff. You're completely right that we all "learn" sobriety in different ways too.
-jay
-jay
Learning is a lifetime endeavor
Nothing worse than getting advice from some one who hasnt been there. Part of the whole santatized research deliema by intellectual people with many letters behind thier names is they dont have a clue about addiciton. You can go down to skid row and walk up to an Alcoholic and learn more in ten minutes from looking in his eyes than youll ever learn reading about a probelm in a book while you sip a Latte and look out the window at the green grass. Authority to speak is granted by experience. You cant follow a leader unless hes been there and knows the way.We all are learners and one who has said he has quit learning has become stagnant. A lot of what Ive seen in the book stores about recovery seems pretty strange,although if it works for someone then I say ,of course by all means. Recovery is big business and there a lot of money invovled in it. Pharmaceutical comapnies are cranking out the drugs by the tons. Not saying thats bad but its worth taking note of and monitoring. I like that KISS analogy,,,keep it simple stupid. Heres a novel thought...Addiction to chemicals requires 100 percent abstinece...
" He is no fool who surrenders that which he cannot keep for that which he can never loose"
Steve
" He is no fool who surrenders that which he cannot keep for that which he can never loose"
Steve
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Originally posted by Jayhay
Thanks Ratnel - great information. I'm an educator (special Ed), and am always aware of different learning styles. Ever check out Howard Gardner multiple intelligences? Cool stuff. You're completely right that we all "learn" sobriety in different ways too.
-jay
Thanks Ratnel - great information. I'm an educator (special Ed), and am always aware of different learning styles. Ever check out Howard Gardner multiple intelligences? Cool stuff. You're completely right that we all "learn" sobriety in different ways too.
-jay
And choosing not to drink after a lifetime of drinking and livig in a culture where it is cool to drink takes a committment by someone that is not easy to do. Unless you are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Unless you want to change so badly that you will let someone or something else come into your life and guide you.
Niner, you asked how we learn sobriety? I find that interesting that you ask that question. For me, I am in the process of learning how to live and learning about the tools that I need for sobriety. If it was as easy as you drink or you don’t, I don’t think any of us would be here having this conversation. It is indeed a learning experience for me. Maybe I am slow and other people pick this up by osmosis but for me it is a learning process. Learning sobriety is learning how to live. Just going without a drink, IMO, does not mean you are living a life of sobriety. I would still have my drunk thought patterns, I would still be thinking about having a drink, so for me, I am still under the control of alcohol which does not make me living a life of sobriety it just means I don’t have a drink now. Living this life of sobriety is a learning process that requires a lot of work on my part.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Just another example of why lively debates rarely last long on message boards...
Ratnel...I'm pretty sure Niner was asking why the word learn was in "quotes". Sometimes when words are in quotes, the meaning changes.
I wish I could give you a good example, but my brain has locked up. Anybody happen to find the key???
Ratnel...I'm pretty sure Niner was asking why the word learn was in "quotes". Sometimes when words are in quotes, the meaning changes.
I wish I could give you a good example, but my brain has locked up. Anybody happen to find the key???
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
...and Seinfeld has never been the same.
I think, Niner, that if sobriety is behavior then we can learn to change our behavior. If it is a condition, then we can learn the tools to achieve that condition. That is how I would use the term 'learn' regarding sobriety.
Learning to spurn the messages bombarding us that it is cool to drink, learning to plan for drinking situations, learning to cope with urges...all are ways we work to achieve sobriety.
To achieve the condition of a car being stopped, I can allow it to slam into a wall, I can learn to slam on the brakes, or I can learn to gradually downshift and then apply the brakes in such as way that I don't hit the wall. They all achieve the same condition, though the end result may differ....
Don S
I think, Niner, that if sobriety is behavior then we can learn to change our behavior. If it is a condition, then we can learn the tools to achieve that condition. That is how I would use the term 'learn' regarding sobriety.
Learning to spurn the messages bombarding us that it is cool to drink, learning to plan for drinking situations, learning to cope with urges...all are ways we work to achieve sobriety.
To achieve the condition of a car being stopped, I can allow it to slam into a wall, I can learn to slam on the brakes, or I can learn to gradually downshift and then apply the brakes in such as way that I don't hit the wall. They all achieve the same condition, though the end result may differ....
Don S
Hey Niner,
Why don't you take your thumb out of your arse?
You could not do better if you were TRYING to persuade people that AA are a bunch of uptight intolerent wankers.
If I were to come to the site now and read your posts, the LAST place I would head would be AA...
Why don't you take your thumb out of your arse?
You could not do better if you were TRYING to persuade people that AA are a bunch of uptight intolerent wankers.
If I were to come to the site now and read your posts, the LAST place I would head would be AA...
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