Could my Higher Power be MYSELF?
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by Pigtails 
I know that praying to it won't change anything.
On my own journey, I found these questions arising from within:
* Who am I to say there is no God?
* Who am I to say what God isn't?
* Who am I to say what God can't do?
My struggles at finding God as I expected him to be didn't mean I needed to turn away from seeking God. Perhaps I just needed to let my expectations go along with the rest of my old ideas. I have found God in ways I didn't imagine, from situations I hadn't anticipated, at times when I didn't expect it. Today I experience God in everything, and my faith reaches the level of knowingness.
Can you find God by searching within?
"We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found."
Big Book quotes from the 1st edition
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by Pigtails
I do not believe in any kind of deity (and I have tried but it just doesn't happen). So I was using the universe/fate/destiny because it's out of my control and I know I need to give things up to it... but I don't understand the point of "PRAYING" to the universe/fate/destiny when it is outside of my control and I know that praying to it won't change anything.It kind of seems like an oxymoron to me to be praying to it.
"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life—or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life—or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
Link to "We Agnostics" for anyone else who might also find it valuable:
We Agnostics - Chapter 4
As far as considering the universe/fate/destiny to be your Higher Power, those would work perfectly well. Even willingness to believe in a Power greater than yourself is enough to make a beginning.
"Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another’s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another’s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."
"That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe. When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, “I wish I had what that man has. I’m sure it would work if I could only believe as he believes. But I cannot accept as surely true the many articles of faith which are so plain to him.” So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level.
"We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. “Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?” As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.*"
We may not find the Power we seek before taking the steps to recover, but many of us find God through taking the actions of the steps.
Big Book quotes from the first edition
Recoveringed
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Thump
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by Pigtails
So I figured, well since I *can* change myself and my own actions/attitudes, why not pray to myself?
If you do, perhaps you might also share over time what happens.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 379
Hi Pigtails
I gave up drinking nearly 8 months ago now. I did it because I decided I wanted a different life for myself.
From day one I knew it was up to ME to stay sober. If I wanted things to be different, I had to make the changes.
To this day it has worked for me.
I don't believe I am a victim - I always had the choice to drink or not drink and that choice will always be mine. I am so much happier and healthier without it
I gave up drinking nearly 8 months ago now. I did it because I decided I wanted a different life for myself.
From day one I knew it was up to ME to stay sober. If I wanted things to be different, I had to make the changes.
To this day it has worked for me.
I don't believe I am a victim - I always had the choice to drink or not drink and that choice will always be mine. I am so much happier and healthier without it
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,145
Originally Posted by Sunny27
Hi Pigtails
I gave up drinking nearly 8 months ago now. I did it because I decided I wanted a different life for myself.
From day one I knew it was up to ME to stay sober. If I wanted things to be different, I had to make the changes.
To this day it has worked for me.
I don't believe I am a victim - I always had the choice to drink or not drink and that choice will always be mine. I am so much happier and healthier without it
I gave up drinking nearly 8 months ago now. I did it because I decided I wanted a different life for myself.
From day one I knew it was up to ME to stay sober. If I wanted things to be different, I had to make the changes.
To this day it has worked for me.
I don't believe I am a victim - I always had the choice to drink or not drink and that choice will always be mine. I am so much happier and healthier without it
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
For myself, I couldn't trust myself or didn't really even know who I was. I had a lot of self discovery to do. I didn't know, until I got there. Hard to put into words, but I can't say what will or will not work for you. Keep exploring and continue trying.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by KnowHope
You're not alone or even different in this regard. From "We Agnostics":
"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life—or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life—or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
I'm not saying I don't believe in anything "spiritual" like the connection of human beings or how our existence on the earth is a mystery, but just because I don't pray to a chair or a doorknob, I'm going to die? That sounds so wrong to me.
Originally Posted by KnowHope
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another’s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."
I am not trying to argue, just stating why this chapter doesn't work for me. I know that praying to a chair or the universe etc. doesn't work for me because I have tried it. To me it is the same exercise as journaling or talking to a counselor or my cat, or meditating. Sure, I put some words and hopes and thoughts out there, I acknowledge that things are out of my control and I need to let go of trying to control them (definitely the best thing I learned from AA, as well as from readings on co-dependency), but that doesn't mean I believe there is a creative intelligence or spirit underlying things. To me all that matters is whether I put ACTION into my thoughts/prayers/whatever. Whether there is or is not a god or creative intelligence etc., I must put action into my goals in order for them to become reality. So again I do not understand why having a Higher Power is so necessary, or why it can't be the inner me. I guess I will just try it and see.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery
For myself, I couldn't trust myself or didn't really even know who I was. I had a lot of self discovery to do. I didn't know, until I got there. Hard to put into words, but I can't say what will or will not work for you. Keep exploring and continue trying.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
pigtails, it is important to understand the degree of alcoholic this is written about. they had tried everything- hospitals, special treatments, sanitariums,asylums, and jails. they had experienced tremons,complete physical addiction to alcohol, hallucinations that lead some to suicide and others into a straight jackets.they had been through the belladonna treatment, locked up for lengthly periods of time, electric shock treatment,pretty much everything short of a frontal labotomy.nothing worked. lonliness, great physical and mental agony. most had taken losses on every front of their lives. some went on trying to live with alcohol and others wanted to die. it didnt matter whether rich or poor, learned or unlettered. they were all headed for the same destruction and couldnt do anything to stop it.
"So again I do not understand why having a Higher Power is so necessary, or why it can't be the inner me. I guess I will just try it and see"
nobody says you have to have a HP. AA says in the BB that it may not be for everyone and engourages people that dont find it appealing to find another solution that will work. we just want people to recover no matter what it takes.
we are very blessed in our society today to have so many different recovery programs for people to try.
prayers yer way that ya find a solution that works for ya.
"So again I do not understand why having a Higher Power is so necessary, or why it can't be the inner me. I guess I will just try it and see"
nobody says you have to have a HP. AA says in the BB that it may not be for everyone and engourages people that dont find it appealing to find another solution that will work. we just want people to recover no matter what it takes.
we are very blessed in our society today to have so many different recovery programs for people to try.
prayers yer way that ya find a solution that works for ya.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I know I have bad instincts that say "I just want to go get drunk" but I also have good instincts that say "drinking will only make things worse," and that's the one I have to learn to listen to... no matter which way or method I use, to me it all comes down to listening to the good, positive part of me.
Pigtails, you have an internal locus of control, and you are being told that is the wrong way to be by some who have an external locus of control. In other words, you believe in yourself and your ability to learn and succeed. There is no debate here because you get to make your own definitions, your own meanings, your own purpose.
There is only one thing left to do here now, and you know what it is. Are you ready to make that plan about continuing to use alcohol?
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by freshstart57
This is what addiction is - an inner conflict of wanting to drink when you know you mustn't. Yes, strengthen your confidence in yourself, in your knowledge and your ability to reason, to learn the skills and tools we need to deal with life on its terms.
"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove....
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics"
I was safe enough when locked up, and could even manage to stop drinking, sometimes for several days (when out), but I lacked the power to stay stopped, and the money to be permanently locked up. Though every human power was used to help me, nothing actually worked. What was I to do? I was in last stage alcoholism, dying, what untried alternatives where left? My IQ was reduced to my shoe size so an intellectual approach wasn't on the cards. Well, perhaps, maybe, I could just open my mind a tiny bit to the slight possibility that a spiritual remedy might work, even though deep down inside I thought I was a hopeless case.... the rest is history.
But then I very closely fit the definition of the real alcoholic in the Big Book. It worked for them all those years ago and it works for me today.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by Gottalife
This might illustrate a subtle distinction between addiction and alcoholism. The following passage reflects my experience as an alcoholic of the hopeless variety that Tomsteve described above:
"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove....
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics".
"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove....
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or go permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcoholics".
It is true that some addictions run much deeper than others. Is it because they are interlaced with a whole host of other issues. Is it biologhy, psychology, sociology, spiritual, too much psychic damage? The fact that some get so much more out of alcohol than others would seem to indicate that the biology of it all plays a big role.
I think it's fantastic whenever someone overcomes hardcore addictions but does it really do the issue justice to be spouting off 30's era text like "alcoholics of the hopeless variety, beyond human aid, and unless locked up will die or go permanently insane". It makes it sound as if those who choose a different approach are doomed to die a horrific death and if they do recover they were not "real alcoholics" in the first place. This is just not true.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
True the original text was written around 1939. It has survived three new editions, the latest 2007, unchanged. This is because the disease remains the same, the universal principles employed in recovery remain unchanged, and the several million alcoholics who have found recovery through the book have not been able to improve upon the original except by updating some of the personal stories to reflect different types and ages of members.
The words quoted above describe my experience exactly from 1980 onwards. Of my treatment centre cohorts 30% recovered, all in AA. The remainder did not recover and did not survive. They were all dead within 2 years. This is my experience.
What it means to be alcoholic in terms of AAs solution is not well understood. However a university study found that in terms of the general defintion of alcoholic, about 80% can recover by their own power or with some outside support such as counselling or treatment. But there is a group of about 20% that do not respond to this approach and seem beyond medical science to fix. AA distinguishes these groups by referring to hard drinkers and real alcoholics.
But there is good news in the wider definition- 80% of alcoholics can recover on a non spiritual basis if they wish. What could be wrong with that?
The words quoted above describe my experience exactly from 1980 onwards. Of my treatment centre cohorts 30% recovered, all in AA. The remainder did not recover and did not survive. They were all dead within 2 years. This is my experience.
What it means to be alcoholic in terms of AAs solution is not well understood. However a university study found that in terms of the general defintion of alcoholic, about 80% can recover by their own power or with some outside support such as counselling or treatment. But there is a group of about 20% that do not respond to this approach and seem beyond medical science to fix. AA distinguishes these groups by referring to hard drinkers and real alcoholics.
But there is good news in the wider definition- 80% of alcoholics can recover on a non spiritual basis if they wish. What could be wrong with that?
sobriety date 5-2-12
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Midwest
Posts: 903
Originally Posted by Pigtails
I can understand this. I too have had problems trusting myself and knowing who I really am. But I've spent a lot of time trying to figure that out and realizing I do NEED to trust myself and my own GOOD instincts in order to find my way out. Yes, I know I have bad instincts that say "I just want to go get drunk" but I also have good instincts that say "drinking will only make things worse," and that's the one I have to learn to listen to... no matter which way or method I use, to me it all comes down to listening to the good, positive part of me.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Pigtails
I am not trying to argue, just stating why this chapter doesn't work for me. I know that praying to a chair or the universe etc. doesn't work for me because I have tried it. To me it is the same exercise as journaling or talking to a counselor or my cat, or meditating. Sure, I put some words and hopes and thoughts out there, I acknowledge that things are out of my control and I need to let go of trying to control them (definitely the best thing I learned from AA, as well as from readings on co-dependency), but that doesn't mean I believe there is a creative intelligence or spirit underlying things. To me all that matters is whether I put ACTION into my thoughts/prayers/whatever.
Whether there is or is not a god or creative intelligence etc., I must put action into my goals in order for them to become reality.
So again I do not understand why having a Higher Power is so necessary, or why it can't be the inner me. I guess I will just try it and see.
Whether there is or is not a god or creative intelligence etc., I must put action into my goals in order for them to become reality.
So again I do not understand why having a Higher Power is so necessary, or why it can't be the inner me. I guess I will just try it and see.
Don't sweat the challenges you are having with coming to your own understanding. Whether you will or will not be making use of the AA program of recovery is not important. What is important is you discover what works for YOU.
I enjoy an AA defined sobriety, because I understand I have an AA defined illness of alcohoism. The steps require me to reach a level of my own understanding with my HP. I have done so, and so of course the program works beautifully for me. I'm a great example of being successful in AA.
I don't sell AA. I totally believe, and practice my belief, that attraction by example is the only sensible way forward when working with others. I take pains, and I'm careful not to promote AA as a solution that works for everybody just because it works for somebody. AA is not complicated in the least to understand, it was purposely written to be very simplistic in manner, and in putting into action its suggestions.
There are examples of explanation in this thread, and other threads too, from persons indentifying themselves as AA, that for me, betray and misrepresent the awesome spirituality offered by AA. Quotes are taken from the BB, and persons say this and that about how true the words are because they experienced this and that. This is then used as an argument to convince others to come to the same agreement and understanding as the respective talker, so as to have a spiritual experience for themselves.
Being spiritual, living a spiritual life, embracing spirituality, is of course entirely an inner life experience of personal discovery of our own deepest essence. End of story. Full stop.
What is discovered whilst seeking, is entirely besides the point, because at the end of the day, its really just about the seeker, the journey, the spiritual experience of that singular seeker.
As we review the history of different peoples we can understand that many people have same kind experiences spiritually speaking. No problem, and we should not be surprised, since we are all human after all. Still though, when it comes time to share, to explain, to define... people often discover the sameness of experiences includes some unique differences as well. We then acknowledge that each persons spiritual journey is ultimately their own to experience as they come to understand. Full stop.
You know, everybody creates a personal philosophy, and gets on with living their life. Some devote their lives to such truths ie philosophers, while others not so much, but every single person nonetheless creates their own personal philosophy as a requirement to being human, no less.
Spirituality is a human trait. Some persons pursue that trait, some do not, but nonetheless, every person makes up their own mind on such issues, and others can't make up anybody else's mind for them, as it simply betrays the spirit of human spirituality to attempt to do so, because the journey is their own to take, or not take. There are no exceptions to this spiritual law. None.
Have no worries, Pigtails. You've discovered already your own spiritual understanding. Your understanding will indeed mature. You can, if you wish, continue with an AA program of recovery. You can also, without penalty, continue without AA, and become happily sober too.
Yes, its all about the inner you. Go with it. Discover your essence. Please don't pray to yourself, or worship yourself, as this will create nothing but vanity, but otherwise do discover just how wonderful being our human selves, in all our unvarnished simplicity and inner nakedness before ourselves, really is just waiting to be experienced.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vashon WA
Posts: 1,035
Hi Pigtails, it's good to see you posting. After 26 years I quit on Halloween '11 without anything because, thankfully, I could. Not that it was easy. Whatever works for someone is good. I am blessed/cursed with being a very deep thinker. I can diddle concepts and ideas around in my tortured brain for days. During really early recovery it nearly drove me crazy. I had to keep it very simple and just not drink, ever. That is still my "higher power"--DON'T DRINK.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,955
In AA's first years I all but ruined the whole undertaking with this sort of unconscious arrogance. God as I understood Him had to be for everybody. Sometimes my aggression was subtle and sometimes it was crude. But either way it was damaging - perhaps fatally so - to numbers of non-believers. Of course this sort of thing isn't confined to Twelfth Step work. It is very apt to leak out into our relationships with everybody. Even now, I catch myself chanting that same old barrier-building refrain, "Do as I do, believe as I do - or else!"
The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961
The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill Wilson, AA Grapevine, April 1961
I do not expect a believer to understand my atheism so I avoid seeking any instruction from them with regards to working the steps. Instead I turn to other atheist/agnostics in AA that have recovered from alcoholism as described in the BB, for suggestions to working a program not tailored for non-believers.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Langley
Posts: 2
Hi Bob,
I am a newcomer, 40 years old and an alcoholic that wants to give myself to AA. I have been watching your posts for about a year now (while drinking) and have come to respect what you say. Any advice on finding a good sponsor at an AA meeting?
I have been to a few meetings last year but didn't stick with it because I thought I could quit on my own.....I can't.....I need AA.
Your response is most welcomed
I am a newcomer, 40 years old and an alcoholic that wants to give myself to AA. I have been watching your posts for about a year now (while drinking) and have come to respect what you say. Any advice on finding a good sponsor at an AA meeting?
I have been to a few meetings last year but didn't stick with it because I thought I could quit on my own.....I can't.....I need AA.
Your response is most welcomed
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