Tough Love or Common Sense ????
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Oh pllllllease!
Originally posted by Rotten
I think we are getting away from the real subject here.
Niner is a closed minded bigot no better than the protolysing Christian or Muslim. His attitude is one that is doing AA nor any other organisation any good.
And further to this he does not seem to be helping anybody coming to the site looking for help with his overzealousness for his chosen method for recovery.
Despite his assertations to the contrary he is unable to accept the validity of any other method of recovery and as a fundamentalist there should be questions asked by the sites controllers over whether he is a valid member of this community.
Let us not forget, this whole vent of argument and the associated bile occured because niner was called on his attitude and his childish and immature about this has led to one man who needed help quitting posting on the board. He has also been a factor in at least two other members leaving to my knowledge.
I appreciate that it is an issue of free speeech, but in this case I think it is over-ridden by the need to ensure the 'greater good' of the welfare of people fighting a disease that kills.
His attitude is having an effect on my thoughts of future sobriety.
MY GOD, IS THIS WHAT AA WILL TURN ME INTO?
Niner, you have spoken of 'tough love', but I can see no love in your posts - only fanatacism.
I think we are getting away from the real subject here.
Niner is a closed minded bigot no better than the protolysing Christian or Muslim. His attitude is one that is doing AA nor any other organisation any good.
And further to this he does not seem to be helping anybody coming to the site looking for help with his overzealousness for his chosen method for recovery.
Despite his assertations to the contrary he is unable to accept the validity of any other method of recovery and as a fundamentalist there should be questions asked by the sites controllers over whether he is a valid member of this community.
Let us not forget, this whole vent of argument and the associated bile occured because niner was called on his attitude and his childish and immature about this has led to one man who needed help quitting posting on the board. He has also been a factor in at least two other members leaving to my knowledge.
I appreciate that it is an issue of free speeech, but in this case I think it is over-ridden by the need to ensure the 'greater good' of the welfare of people fighting a disease that kills.
His attitude is having an effect on my thoughts of future sobriety.
MY GOD, IS THIS WHAT AA WILL TURN ME INTO?
Niner, you have spoken of 'tough love', but I can see no love in your posts - only fanatacism.
AA is the only program I know of that has nothing to gain if a person stays sober or not. Nobody makes any money off the deal. AA is self-supporting through contributions from members. I was told if I had a buck, give it. If I needed a buck, take it. AA is free for the "wanting." There's no one person who tells anyone else, with statistics or by any other means, what to do or what not to do. It's all up to the person who comes through the door, and how much effort he's willing to put into it, whether he gets sober or not. The most honest thing I read on the other thread was that the person just wasn't ready to stop yet. Maybe he'll be ready some day, maybe not. That's not my call or anyone else's call here. And by the way, that person doesn't need anyone here to do God's work by defending him. If he wanted help, he'd be here fighting for help. He'd be willing to go to any lengths including dealing with what's said here to get sober, whether he liked it or not. While I'm in the mood to be overzelous and proselytize and maybe just a little inveterate, let me mention that as near as we can figure, AA has over 95,000 meetings in over 200 countries including China where the meetings have to be held undergound due to the communist government and the law preventing a belief in God. Of course, I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that I'm spouting statistics, just an observation.
A new dawn, a new day...
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posts: 53
Music, I respect your views because you offer help, advice and the benefit of your experience.
There is no argument you are also an AA fanatic, of that there is no doubt - but you offer something construtive to people who visit here.
I can see no evidence that niner does.
Don't get me wrong, I love AA, but in my opinion niner is doing no good pointing people to its great work with his simple minded fanatisism.
Hi Jay, I'm not having a particularly bad day myself - I am just sick to death of niner and his holier than thou attitude.
There is no argument you are also an AA fanatic, of that there is no doubt - but you offer something construtive to people who visit here.
I can see no evidence that niner does.
Don't get me wrong, I love AA, but in my opinion niner is doing no good pointing people to its great work with his simple minded fanatisism.
Hi Jay, I'm not having a particularly bad day myself - I am just sick to death of niner and his holier than thou attitude.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Music, you wrote: "AA is the only program I know of that has nothing to gain if a person stays sober or not. Nobody makes any money off the deal. AA is self-supporting through contributions from members."
The ONLY for-profit sobriety program I know of is RR. And I don't think Trimpey is in it for the money.
"If he wanted help, he'd be here fighting for help. He'd be willing to go to any lengths including dealing with what's said here to get sober, whether he liked it or not."
Or would go elsewhere, in spite of there having been a useful thread going here that was of benefit to many people. Many are discussing sobriety issues elsewhere. But personal insults don't help anybody's sobriety. 'Tough love' doesn't justify boorish behavior. Fortunately in this age of the internet, there are other places and threads for folks to go to. Once upon a time, AA f2f meetings were the only option for folks considering sobriety.
This is an important point. The level of commitment that it takes to walk through a door to a f2f meeting is far different than what it takes to surf the web looking for information. People here start out far more ambivalent about that decision for change. 'Tough love' (hey! That's what this thread is titled!) is like slamming the door in the face of the curious--the many lurkers who may be following a long, productive thread. Stephanie's post to me about Bill's description of how to deal with individuals, and your comments on that subject, seem a little anachronistic in this forum. I'm talking to you, Music, but who knows how many people are reading this and inching towards sobriety because of this conversation?
"There's no one person who tells anyone else, with statistics or by any other means, what to do or what not to do."
That's just not true, and is a cheap shot at those of us who are discussing what statistics reveal (or don't reveal!) about the different sobriety programs. Every program tells people what to DO to attain sobriety. I have noticed that certain individuals in certain programs are more emphatic (not to say dogmatic) about their predictions of what will happen to people if they don't DO certain things.
The religious origins and apparent dogma of AA are among the most common objections newcomers mention. I have had useful explanations of how individual members use spiritual--rather than religious--change to affirm their decision for abstinence. But members who rudely question other approaches and appear doctrinaire in their words and tone reinforce that dogmatic image.
Personally, I don't see bigotry or fanaticism. Just a tougher nut or two to crack.
From the land of fruits and nuts....
Don S
The ONLY for-profit sobriety program I know of is RR. And I don't think Trimpey is in it for the money.
"If he wanted help, he'd be here fighting for help. He'd be willing to go to any lengths including dealing with what's said here to get sober, whether he liked it or not."
Or would go elsewhere, in spite of there having been a useful thread going here that was of benefit to many people. Many are discussing sobriety issues elsewhere. But personal insults don't help anybody's sobriety. 'Tough love' doesn't justify boorish behavior. Fortunately in this age of the internet, there are other places and threads for folks to go to. Once upon a time, AA f2f meetings were the only option for folks considering sobriety.
This is an important point. The level of commitment that it takes to walk through a door to a f2f meeting is far different than what it takes to surf the web looking for information. People here start out far more ambivalent about that decision for change. 'Tough love' (hey! That's what this thread is titled!) is like slamming the door in the face of the curious--the many lurkers who may be following a long, productive thread. Stephanie's post to me about Bill's description of how to deal with individuals, and your comments on that subject, seem a little anachronistic in this forum. I'm talking to you, Music, but who knows how many people are reading this and inching towards sobriety because of this conversation?
"There's no one person who tells anyone else, with statistics or by any other means, what to do or what not to do."
That's just not true, and is a cheap shot at those of us who are discussing what statistics reveal (or don't reveal!) about the different sobriety programs. Every program tells people what to DO to attain sobriety. I have noticed that certain individuals in certain programs are more emphatic (not to say dogmatic) about their predictions of what will happen to people if they don't DO certain things.
The religious origins and apparent dogma of AA are among the most common objections newcomers mention. I have had useful explanations of how individual members use spiritual--rather than religious--change to affirm their decision for abstinence. But members who rudely question other approaches and appear doctrinaire in their words and tone reinforce that dogmatic image.
Personally, I don't see bigotry or fanaticism. Just a tougher nut or two to crack.
From the land of fruits and nuts....
Don S
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
Originally posted by Rotten
His attitude is having an effect on my thoughts of future sobriety
His attitude is having an effect on my thoughts of future sobriety
As for this thread, I'm struggling to find it's ongoing purpose, and whether or not we are actually helping ourselves or others, or just continuing a chest-thumping contest.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: El Paso, Tx
Posts: 5,862
Originally posted by Jon
As for this thread, I'm struggling to find it's ongoing purpose, and whether or not we are actually helping ourselves or others, or just continuing a chest-thumping contest.
As for this thread, I'm struggling to find it's ongoing purpose, and whether or not we are actually helping ourselves or others, or just continuing a chest-thumping contest.
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...... and how much help does the newcomer find in this on going debate?
.......can it not be agreed upon we are all human?
........can the abiltiy of Honesty, Openmindness, and Willingness not be respected?
....... can the purpose of this thread, help you,or help the newcomer stay sober, or just provide continued resentments and aggravation?
........can we just throw down the gloves and admit we all have respective views and no further purpose, by lambasting, ridicule, name calling, or stong personal view points can be achieved by passing on what works for us under this net of "chest thumping"?
A new dawn, a new day...
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posts: 53
Jon,
As far as I can see all the negative energy on this thread and othershas its origins with one person.
This IS very definately a personal attack on niner as I believe that the disappearance of three people from these boards have been directly (if not wholly) brought about by his postings.
As far as I can see all the negative energy on this thread and othershas its origins with one person.
This IS very definately a personal attack on niner as I believe that the disappearance of three people from these boards have been directly (if not wholly) brought about by his postings.
Last edited by Rotten; 01-18-2004 at 12:43 PM.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Rotten your PM to me was definately not subtle or polite and you don't know me. So get off the soapbox. But I notice that you're going to AA meetings and have overcome the 'God thing' so my comments dont seem to have hurt your rrecovery. Jon and the mods decide who stays and who goes not me. If 'your friend' wishes to post then what is stopping him?
And Don please dont pretend that you aren't pushing your brand of recovery over mine because you know you are. And you take your shots at AA along the way. Thats OK, it provides for a useful discussion. And I believe that newcomers are reading this and learning something. They may think some of us are whacked but they are learning. All you lurkers join in. Are you learning anything from this thread?
The one MAIN difference between this thread and 'that other thread' involving 'you know who', is that everyone posting here is SOBER................................
And isn't that the goal of this website? Physical, mental, and emotional sobriety. Isn't it for people who have drug/alcohol and associated problems who 'want' to quit and regain control over their lives?
What a concept. And thank you Jon.
We dont agree on many things, some of us dont like others but everyone on this thread, as far as I know, is sober. That was and is my only point. I dont care how you get sober but just do it and stop talking about quitting. Quit Damnit. Make a decision and stick with it. If you falter and slip I wont kick you in the ass, unless you continue to do it and post here as though nothing had happened. I wont be a participant in your destruction. I will and have given you a few facts from my experience. That is tough love as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a hand holder and I'm ok with that. I will post from my perspective, Don from a SMART perspective, and others from their perspective but we are all SOBER. Not....'gonna get sober, soon I'll get sober, next year I'll get sober, what consquences? I can get sober anytime I want.' No my friends, the fun really begins AFTER you get physically sober.
Anyway, everyone take a deep breathe and relax. Let us all get beyond this bickering. I really want for you what I have. A happy and contented sobriety.............well most ot the time. Happy MLK day
And Don please dont pretend that you aren't pushing your brand of recovery over mine because you know you are. And you take your shots at AA along the way. Thats OK, it provides for a useful discussion. And I believe that newcomers are reading this and learning something. They may think some of us are whacked but they are learning. All you lurkers join in. Are you learning anything from this thread?
The one MAIN difference between this thread and 'that other thread' involving 'you know who', is that everyone posting here is SOBER................................
And isn't that the goal of this website? Physical, mental, and emotional sobriety. Isn't it for people who have drug/alcohol and associated problems who 'want' to quit and regain control over their lives?
What a concept. And thank you Jon.
We dont agree on many things, some of us dont like others but everyone on this thread, as far as I know, is sober. That was and is my only point. I dont care how you get sober but just do it and stop talking about quitting. Quit Damnit. Make a decision and stick with it. If you falter and slip I wont kick you in the ass, unless you continue to do it and post here as though nothing had happened. I wont be a participant in your destruction. I will and have given you a few facts from my experience. That is tough love as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a hand holder and I'm ok with that. I will post from my perspective, Don from a SMART perspective, and others from their perspective but we are all SOBER. Not....'gonna get sober, soon I'll get sober, next year I'll get sober, what consquences? I can get sober anytime I want.' No my friends, the fun really begins AFTER you get physically sober.
Anyway, everyone take a deep breathe and relax. Let us all get beyond this bickering. I really want for you what I have. A happy and contented sobriety.............well most ot the time. Happy MLK day
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
I too have strong convictions in my own ideas about recovery and I too have been rebuked on this forum because I held fast to my beliefs.
Even though I had stated my position in a firm but loving manner and my motives were good one member in particular regarded my views as arrogant.
So what do I do ?
I have to accept my powerlessness over others and I allow them the right to have their own opinion......even if that opinion is the belief that I am arrogant.............
I have been in recovery long enough to know that if an addict is looking for an exuse to go back out and use he wont have to look too far to find one..................you may think I am arrogant but please do not try to pin another persons baggage on me.........
I quit playing God when I got sober six years ago.
Today I am not so naieve as to think that I am so powerful that with my words I could cause any addict who seriously desired sobriety to go back out and use.
I have followed the 'weibe" thread and I happen to know that the individual who resgined membership had received nothing but love and encouragement from the other members.
Even if the firmness of one or two people might have been ill received I fail to uinderstand how that alone could negate the love and support of so many others......
To say that ......."you caused me to do this..." is a cop out...
Sometimes we blame things on others or even on the devil .......when really it's just us....
Yes of course we all have a responsibility to help maintain an atmosphere of recovery but hey what's done is done .......I think this foolishness about blaming someone else for another persons actions has gone on long enough and it is about time we bring some closure to it......
Lets move on shall we.......
Even though I had stated my position in a firm but loving manner and my motives were good one member in particular regarded my views as arrogant.
So what do I do ?
I have to accept my powerlessness over others and I allow them the right to have their own opinion......even if that opinion is the belief that I am arrogant.............
I have been in recovery long enough to know that if an addict is looking for an exuse to go back out and use he wont have to look too far to find one..................you may think I am arrogant but please do not try to pin another persons baggage on me.........
I quit playing God when I got sober six years ago.
Today I am not so naieve as to think that I am so powerful that with my words I could cause any addict who seriously desired sobriety to go back out and use.
I have followed the 'weibe" thread and I happen to know that the individual who resgined membership had received nothing but love and encouragement from the other members.
Even if the firmness of one or two people might have been ill received I fail to uinderstand how that alone could negate the love and support of so many others......
To say that ......."you caused me to do this..." is a cop out...
Sometimes we blame things on others or even on the devil .......when really it's just us....
Yes of course we all have a responsibility to help maintain an atmosphere of recovery but hey what's done is done .......I think this foolishness about blaming someone else for another persons actions has gone on long enough and it is about time we bring some closure to it......
Lets move on shall we.......
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