Don S

Hi, niner,
Those are more current publications than Peele's, so it should make for interesting reading (would be nice if they'd write in plain English, though).

Vince Fox's book Addiction, Change, and Choice: The New View of Alcoholism
has lots of good information on recovery rates and different methodologies.
(Although we weren't necessarily discussing the actual effectiveness of AA specifically, he quotes figures from an internal memo of AA that "of 100 people that walk into AA the first of the year there are but 5 remaining at the end of the year". Retention is about 8 - 12% in another study by AA.)

A referral by another of the SMART board directors (most of whom are addiction researchers) which I have not looked at but have seen cited is:
--Comparisons in controlled studies: Hester, R.K. & Miller, W.R.; Handbook of
Alcoholism Treatment Approaches: Effective Alternatives, 3rd Ed., Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 2003.

By the way, none of this means that AA is or is not a good option for some or many people, or that other systems will or will not work better for them, for you, or for me! I've had several people mention the book Sober For Good, by Anne Fletcher. I haven't read it but apparently it chronicles lots of individuals and how they approached sobriety, with success in AA, alternatives, and on their own. I gather that she didn't select her examples in proportion to any statistical rate of success, so it isn't intended to prove anything in that regard.

Peele is good at debunking assumptions, and he makes for interesting reading. He has demonstrated, for example, that many people moderate their intake as they age (I've watched my parents do this), and that many heavy drinkers successfully become moderate drinkers. Thus heavy drinking doesn't always progress, as in the disease model. I don't interpret that to mean that I would be successful at moderation, nor does SMART Recovery, SOS, RR, AA, or any other sobriety organization that I know of! They are all organizations which exist to provide support to people who have chosen, or are choosing or are struggling with, abstinence.

I'm getting pretty far afield from the original question here....and I still haven't answered Music or Stephanie!
Don S

Ninerfan

Don Please...You are again making unsupported statements. You said, 'he quotes figures from an internal memo of AA that, "of 100 people that walk into AA the first of the year there are but 5 remaining at the end of the year."

It would be much more informative to have the internal AA memo to read so that we can all make up our own minds.

And you go on to say, 'Retention is about 8-12% in another AA study.'

What AA study? You cite an author of a book who makes statements quoting AA sources but not the sources themselves.
That is what I need to know, not another persons opinion of what something says or doesn't say. If you can produce these memos and studies or show us where they are I would appreciate it.

And Don I really wish you would read the BB because then you would know that AA makes a destinction between heavy drinkers and alcoholics. A heavy drinker MAY or may not become an alcoholic if he/she continues to drink but AA does not claim that heavy drinkers ALWAYS become alcoholics.

Another question that concerns me is this notion about moderation. You and I both cannot moderate our drinkning. And the moderate drinker is not who I address my comments to. I am talking about the real or potential alcoholic. Not moderate drinkers. The problem I have with even mentioning that someone can learn to moderate their dinking is that true alcoholics will grab hold of that idea because they really dont want to quit their drinking. They will BS themselves into thinking that they can get by by 'moderating' when in fact they should stop completely as you and I have done.

As for Music and Stephanie, by all means answer there questions, I thought we were asking the same questions.

Music

Hi all,
AA doesn't strive to "retain" anyone. That's where the tough love comes in. If the person wants to drink some more, the Big Book says, go ahead. I'll listen to anyone talk about wanting to get sober but like with anything else. The proof is in the pudding.
Also, AA as with anyother program, has 100% success rate for those who are serious about staying sober. The AA program is a "perfect" program for someone who wants get sober and be happy. The reason I say it's "perfect" is because the program was created by alcoholics who had been there and done that. There are other programs I can't say that about. It's a program of the people, by the people, and for the people who want it. Not the people who need it.

I glanced over some of Stanton Peele's website. Interesting to say the least. Problem is, my best thoughts, intentions, and all the intelligence I could muster couldn't keep me from drinking. I needed first hand help to learn what decisions to make, how to think, and what to do. As far as I'm concerned, the best place to learn these things is from experience.

Don S

Hi, niner,
Music asked me about dealing with guilt over past behavior, and Stephanie asked my opinion about a specific passage from the BB. Both interesting questions, and I intend to reply.

BTW, I do read the passages from the BB that are posted on the AA forum with interest. Thanks to those of you who put those there, and I follow most of those threads (lurking, of course).

Vince Fox's book is footnoted. Do you need me to provide the references to the AA documents? I can do that, but I wonder why you are questioning their veracity. Fox is a respected addiction researcher who doesn't make these things up. However, I'll try to find his citation for you.

Here's a question: they are AA documents regarding AA efficacy. Why aren't they available to you on the AA web site?

AA may make a distinction between a 'heavy drinker' and an 'alcoholic' but nobody else does--especially since there is no generally accepted definition of alcoholic in the first place (Fox lists 18 definitions, of 41 he was able to find!).

Again, though, if you have the passages from the BB I'd be interested to read them. For that matter, is the whole thing available on line? It must be somewhere! Point me to it and I'll start reading! Really, that's a promise. Now, you're going to go over and read all the online info from SOS, SMART, RR, MM, and the others--right?

As I said, I don't think moderation is right for me, nor do any abstinence organizations advocate it. But facts are useful, and I can't buy your idea that our mentioning it somehow leads people to drink. They'd find some other reason anyway, wouldn't they? The problem is that researchers who produce studies, or analysts like Peele who review them, are often greeted with just the same attitude you just exhibited: don't even mention these facts, because they might kill someone! People are responsible for their own behavior. Information CAN BE power.

I agree, Music--Peele is very interesting to read. But as you imply, drinking is only partly a rational (I use the term in its literal sense) decision!

Don S

Ninerfan

Hello Don and thanks for clearing up my confusion regarding the other questioners. I don't question the veracity of the documents. I just haven't seen them yet. My point is that if we are going to discuss what it says in an AA memo or study then it is reasonalble to have those documents available for all to read. But not through someone elses perspective. I would prefer to have those documents speak for themself.

I will check out AA world services for anything relating to our discussion and look for Mr. Fox's book and references in the library. As for the BB. The Alcoholics Anonymous forum has the Big Book ONline under AA Power Posts.

RR and MM I probably wont look at, don't know what SOS is and I'll take a look at SMART. OK? Hell, maybe I'll post there. Gotta go, have a good one

Don S

I found the link to Big Book, right where you said it was! Never knew it was there. Thanks.
A quick perusal of RR's forum boards was all I needed. I don't know what is up with that guy. It has cognitive-behavioral basis, and SMART was founded when the board of directors of RR disagreed strongly with RR's new direction and resigned en masse. But RR has gone in a very different direction. MM is worth understanding just b/c some folks come here and to other abstinence-based forum boards who really want to moderate--at least for now. MM gives some guidelines on that. SOS is a secular alternative to AA. I'll dig up the link.
Here's to ecumenical sobriety....
Don S

The Jay Walker

A.A. Big Book Pgs, 20-22

How many time people have said to us: "I can take it or
leave it alone. Why can't he?" "Why don't you drink like
a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor."
"Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the
hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could
stop if he wanted to." "She's such a sweet girl, I should
think he'd stop for her sake." "The doctor told him that if
he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit
up again."

Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers
which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of
ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions
refer to people whose reactions are very different
from ours.


Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor
entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or
leave it alone.


Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He
may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair
him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few
years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason -- ill
health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning
of a doctor becomes operative, this man can also stop
or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome
and may even need medical attention.


But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a
moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous
hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins
to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he
starts to drink.


Here is a fellow who has been puzzling you, especially
in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things
while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He
is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less
insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles
his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest
fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he
frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously
anti-social. He has a positive genius for getting tight at exactly
the wrong moment, particularly when some important
decision must be made or engagement kept. He is often
perfectly sensible and well balanced concerning everything
except liquor, but in that respect he is incredibly dishonest
and selfish. He often possesses special abilities, skills, and aptitudes,
and has a promising career ahead of him. He uses his
gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself,
and then pulls the structure down on his head by a senseless
series of sprees. He is the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated
he ought to sleep the clock around. Yet early next morning he searches madly for the bottle he misplaced
the night before. If he can afford it, he may have liquor
concealed all over his house to be certain no one gets
his entire supply away from him to throw down the
wastepipe. As matters grow worse, he begins to use a
combination of high-powered sedative and liquor to
quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the
day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all
over again. Perhaps he goes to a doctor who gives him
morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then
he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.

This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the
true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary. But this
description should identify him roughly.

Don S

Hi, Jay,
My guess is that description fits a very small percentage of the folks who come to AA or any other recovery group, to this forum board, or any of us. It is a caricature, and like most caricatures it has some basis in fact. Is it only this 'true alcoholic' for whom AA is likely to be most successful? And where does that leave the rest of people whose lives are damaged by alcohol? What are they? What are we?
Don S

The Jay Walker

I only know that its a very good description of the way I drank, and A.A. is working for this alcoholic, AA doesn't claim to be able to help everyone.

I have met thousands of people in AA, in various stages of there alcoholism, many make it, and many don't.

I dont feel like having to quote you, but I remember you saying that any program will work if you really want it, ( or something along those lines)

and I agree 100 percent, you really do have to want it.

if you have been fortunate enough to escape the final stages of alcoholism, I am happy for you, I wish we could all find our answers, before having to sink to the depths that many of us have.

just remember, there are many who you will never understand,
just like councelors, judges and preachers I saw over the years,
I spent years of my life trying to figure this out, and explain it to them.

I came to the conclusion years ago, that I guess you had to be there, to truely understand, and thats OK,
because what you say I don't understand either,

I identify with Chronic alcoholics, and I found some in AA.

Can you just let it be?

Jon

Actually Don, that one describes me...perfectly. It also describes the type of people I have used with, been in treatment with, and hang out with now in sobriety.

I can't imagine why a moderate drinker would even need help.

But then again, I've never been moderate...

Don S

Hi, Jay,
That is close enough to what I said, and I still agree with it.

One researcher tried to categorize people by their type or degree of alcoholism and found it impossible. I believe that alcohol abuse exists on a continuum from abstinence to chronic, life threatening compulsive behavior, and that people may move from one place on that to another at different times in their lives. How, why, and how quickly they move along that continuum varies because we are all individuals, with differing beliefs about the role alcohol plays in our lives. In my opinion.

Look, folks, if this is bothering people I'll just stop at this point. Pan has another thread going on a similar subject anyway. Niner and I were replying to each others' questions and comments, and we can continue to share reference info without belaboring the topic.

I don't wish to imply that one program is more or less successful than any other. There just isn't statistical evidence one way or another at this point, and for a number of reasons there may never be.

I don't wish to imply that moderation is a good option for anyone, or predict what will happen to you or anyone else in any recovery program!

And I certainly don't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

I'll start new threads with my thoughts on 'dealing with guilt' and a reply to Stephanie's questions.

Here's to ecumenical recovery....
Don S

Ninerfan

There are different types of alcoholics and all may be helped by AA. I didn't drink like Jay's post described. I was more a periodic drinker. AA is not solely for 'last gaspers' But in some ways it is easier to get the message if you are a 'last gasper' because then you really have only two choices, one is to continue until death, insanity or jail, the other is to give yourself to our simple program. I didn't have to drink everyday to oblivion. But when I sat down to drink I knew that nothing much else was going to get accomplished. And it usually ended up with me drunk then trying to figure out the best way home or to the next bar for another drink. Don I suggest you read the Doctors Opinion in the BB. It describes better than I about the different types of alcoholics. Here is a taste:

xxviii
THE DOCTOR'S OPINION
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met These men were not
drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving
beyond their mental control.
___ There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon
of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice
rather than continue to fight.
___ The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and
in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of
course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We
are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the
wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many
resolutions, but never a decision.
___ There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he
cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He
changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who
always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for
a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is
the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood
by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could
be written.
___ Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except
in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able,
intelligent, friendly people.
___ All these, and many others, have one symptom in common:
they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon
of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested,
may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates
these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has
never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar,
permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest
is entire abstinence.
_
Previous Contents Next xxix
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

Jon

Music, with all due respect, that statement is simply not true. First, "want" is a vague and relative term. In my work (my experience) with alcoholics of the very hopeless variety (chronic homelessness, mental illness), I have found that AA was far from "perfect". Yet you cannot sway my opinion that these men not only "wanted" it, but were serious about it.

Well, yes, they had "done that." But "that" meant that they had stayed sober, for only a very short period of time. (less than a year).

Bill Wilson wrote in AA Comes of Age, " At first nearly every alcoholic we approached began to slip, if indeed he sobered up at all. Others would say dry six months or maybe a year and then take a skid."

So what happened? Did the program suddenly get "better?" Did the alcoholics become more willing? No. It came down to averages.

The fact is that AA, or any other treatment method, has not been proven to have a better success rate than any other, or, in fact, no treatment at all.

(http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m...le.jhtml?term=)

(http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m.../article.jhtml)

(and if you're REALLY in the mood: http://depts.washington.edu/adai/lib/bibs/tx_265.htm )

Now, why is this information important to me?

Because with it, AA, after several attempts at sobriety, now became my choice instead of my only option. And here's the kicker: It wasn't until I CHOSE a method of recovery that anything changed. You see, when I choose, I take responsibility. When I take responsibility, I take action. But it had to be a choice. My choice.

My "program" today is rather customized. It includes meetings, but it also includes counseling, medication, and a lot of contact with sober people, not just sober AA's. It includes tools from at least 3 different organizations that have been mentioned in this thread. It works for me. But it took some serious ass-whuppings to realize that it had to be mine, or it wasn't going to work at all. I had to own it.

I have a lot of sober friends today. Very few are AA's. Just as many got sober, and stayed sober, through different means. I appreciate having such a wide variety of sober friendships.

And I appreciate knowing that for every person out there, there is a way to get better.

For all those needing to "look things up"... send me an email, and I will fill your box with stats and studies. The problem is they won't help you, or anyone else, stay sober. And every single one of them can be read in such a way that it "affirms" the readers opinion.

So, what am I going to do today to stay sober today? I only know that I have to do something.

Ninerfan

Well Jon, I'm not sure where you are coming from but it is true that in the early days most everyone slipped, failed if you will. But eventually hundreds of thousands of former alcoholics have been able to stop slipping and maintain their sobriety. The fact that some dont is unfortunate but many do. Maybe it was during this time that the theory of 'one day at a time' was stumbled over. For those that it works for it works 100%.

You seem to asking the 64,000 dollar question. Why does one person 'get it' and another doesn't? Why did I 'get it?' Why did you? With chronic alkies you are saying that they wanted it and were serious about it but some just could not stay sober. Is that right? Our book says some are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. I don't know if that applies to the people you work with but I sure have seen plenty of people that applies to. Myself included.

AA will work for high bottom drunks as well as low bottom drunks. Why? I don't know. It doesn't work for everyone but it works for me. I look for statistics to buttress my comments to Don and yes I want AA to come out ahead. EGO talking. But I have been sober long enough to know that AA is not the end all and be all of the sober community. At least my community. My world has expanded into a more normal everyday life. I don't go to many meetings anymore but I don't fool myself either. It is only because I SURRENDERED my will and my life to alcoholics anonymous that I have a very good life today.

I may be sticking my head in the sand but I don't think it is appropriate to, in effect, tell the readers that all the programs get basically the same results as not doing anything at all. If I had done nothing at all I would be a complete nut-case today. Nothing changes if nothing changes. I would not have learned that had it not been for AA.

Jon

What I "think" just isn't that important anymore. And I understand completely when you say The point is, we ALL do. However I stay sober must be the best way, right? Wrong. It is simply the best way for me.

As far as stats, like I said, they can't or won't keep someone sober. But it would be ego again if I didn't tell the truth. Look up "spontaneous remission alcoholism". Or don't. When you lump all "problem drinkers" (another term up for interpretation) together, the rate of continued abstinence is the same no matter the method, including no treatment. The only common denominator is a decison, for varied reasons, to quit.

Let's assume that those numbers are true. They still can't take away the fact that AA has helped millions, SMART has helped hundreds of thousands, church has helped hundreds of millions, etc.

The point is that we all seem to think we need to defend a "way" rather than our experience with that way.

There is a very big difference.

Don S

Niner said, "I may be sticking my head in the sand but I don't think it is appropriate to, in effect, tell the readers that all the programs get basically the same results as not doing anything at all."

If it's true, why is it inappropriate? Information can be power. I like people to know that ANY system may work--if they make the commitment, the lifestyle changes, etc.--and they CAN do it themselves. They can seek support wherever it is most likely to help them: any program, f2f meetings, online meetings and forum boards, from their families and friends (or new ones). In my opinion it gives them more hope, not more excuses.

More to the point, statistics don't diminish the effectiveness of any program for an individual. You are not a statistic, and neither am I. Heck, we can both work to change the statistics by staying sober. Christian Scientists and Mormons have very, very high rates of abstinence due to their beliefs! But I'd hardly recommend anyone adopt either religion (no offense intended to anyone) as a means of achieving sobriety.

Let's assume that 81% (using pan's favorite number--the % of statistics that are made up on the spot) of people who decide to quit relapse at least once. That doesn't mean you will or did, or that I did or will.

Generalizing to the particular is usually inaccurate, and sometimes offensive--just take a look at pan's thread!

Nice and sunny in Palm Springs, Jon?

Don S

Jon

Always Don.

Well, about 81% of the time.

Don S

Here is an article by Tom Horvath, President of SMART Recovery, which happens to pertain to this discussion. I may have referred to it earlier, but just happened to get this link:

http://www.smartrecovery.org/nav/pl/9607.htm

My grandparents bought a little parcel of land in Palm Springs in the 1940's near what would now be the downtown. We used to spend spring break there when I was a kid. Too bad they sold it in the late 60's. It would be worth a fortune now!

Don S

Rotten

I think we are getting away from the real subject here.
Niner is a closed minded bigot no better than the protolysing Christian or Muslim. His attitude is one that is doing AA nor any other organisation any good.
And further to this he does not seem to be helping anybody coming to the site looking for help with his overzealousness for his chosen method for recovery.
Despite his assertations to the contrary he is unable to accept the validity of any other method of recovery and as a fundamentalist there should be questions asked by the sites controllers over whether he is a valid member of this community.
Let us not forget, this whole vent of argument and the associated bile occured because niner was called on his attitude and his childish and immature about this has led to one man who needed help quitting posting on the board. He has also been a factor in at least two other members leaving to my knowledge.
I appreciate that it is an issue of free speeech, but in this case I think it is over-ridden by the need to ensure the 'greater good' of the welfare of people fighting a disease that kills.
His attitude is having an effect on my thoughts of future sobriety.
MY GOD, IS THIS WHAT AA WILL TURN ME INTO?
Niner, you have spoken of 'tough love', but I can see no love in your posts - only fanatacism.

Jayhay

Here, here Rotten (Or is it "hear, hear?")

I'm rather peeved that some members have been blocked from this site for their views, but one with that kind of zealous fanaticism is allowed to stay?

I don't agree with anyone being banned form this site, and I agree that we should all be allowed to express our views. Even if one is a BB thumping bigot.

Sorry, I'm just having a bad morning.

I appreciate being able to read about everyone's viewpoints, especially when those views are stated in a non-judgemental way, recognizing the validity to everyone's particular belief.

Have a great day, everyone.