Tough Love or Common Sense ????
Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 93
One of my younger brothers was a brilliant student at uni, and today tutors/ teaches for a living - he could be earning a lot more money, but he loves what he does. One of the most powerful things he taught me is that you'll never understand a subject fully unless you can explain it clearly to someone else. You don't even need someone else - you can just 'pretend' someone else is there. This works extremely well when you are teaching mathematics, or English.
Teaching spiritual matters is a completely different story. Noone in their life will ever be perfect, noone really understands the subject, but it doesn't stop you from trying does it? That is trying to be a better person? Often an outreached arm can be completely misinterpreted as a slap in the face.
In a sense I do feel I'm doing it alone ie. recovering. I've been to the AA meetings, I've checked out the SMART recovery, I've seen clinical psychiatrists and an excellent GP. I've talked to family, friends, read and posted lots on SR. I read philosopy, the bible in all it's shapes and forms, Christian, Muslim, etc. I've recognised the fact that my number one priority in these beginning months for me is recovery from my life before as an alcoholic.
I feel alone because I haven't chosen the most popular courses of recovery. One of the reasons I stopped going to AA meetings was I found that it simply didn't help me. Simple as that. I went to many meetings, noted how the majority of ppl were getting great benefit out the organisation and decided it wasn't for me. Someone asked me: 'Why are you making it hard on yourself, why do you have to be different?', when I explained my multi-tonged approach. I honestly couldn't answer that at the time. But on the drive home I realised that it was actually *harder* for me to do it my way, and that what I was working for would pay off much better in the end then abandoning myself to a program that didn't suit me.
You may think that throughout all this I'd been searching fruitlessy to no avail - but that is absolutely not the case. To be trite, I took what I needed and left the rest from each one. I've learnt a lot about myself in the process and become a lot happier in myself. I know sometimes it might not seem that way but you should of seen me before!
I too have shut the door on the argument (don't worry). If anything I think the net effect has been positive, and ppl in general are more tolerant to other ppl's views.
Teaching spiritual matters is a completely different story. Noone in their life will ever be perfect, noone really understands the subject, but it doesn't stop you from trying does it? That is trying to be a better person? Often an outreached arm can be completely misinterpreted as a slap in the face.
In a sense I do feel I'm doing it alone ie. recovering. I've been to the AA meetings, I've checked out the SMART recovery, I've seen clinical psychiatrists and an excellent GP. I've talked to family, friends, read and posted lots on SR. I read philosopy, the bible in all it's shapes and forms, Christian, Muslim, etc. I've recognised the fact that my number one priority in these beginning months for me is recovery from my life before as an alcoholic.
I feel alone because I haven't chosen the most popular courses of recovery. One of the reasons I stopped going to AA meetings was I found that it simply didn't help me. Simple as that. I went to many meetings, noted how the majority of ppl were getting great benefit out the organisation and decided it wasn't for me. Someone asked me: 'Why are you making it hard on yourself, why do you have to be different?', when I explained my multi-tonged approach. I honestly couldn't answer that at the time. But on the drive home I realised that it was actually *harder* for me to do it my way, and that what I was working for would pay off much better in the end then abandoning myself to a program that didn't suit me.
You may think that throughout all this I'd been searching fruitlessy to no avail - but that is absolutely not the case. To be trite, I took what I needed and left the rest from each one. I've learnt a lot about myself in the process and become a lot happier in myself. I know sometimes it might not seem that way but you should of seen me before!
I too have shut the door on the argument (don't worry). If anything I think the net effect has been positive, and ppl in general are more tolerant to other ppl's views.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Hi all,
Pandy, the best to you. I applaud you for giving your way the best shot you can, and I'm praying for your success, because no human being should continue down the road of drunkeness one day more than necessary.
Niner, I know where you're coming from. We all have our own way of carrying the message and the method may not suit all who happen to hear it. But, I always have to remember. I'm not carrying the message to please others. I'm carrying the message to save my life.
Don, I really enjoy reading your posts. A lot of food for thought. I've noticed one thing though. I read a lot about taking care of that urge to drink today and planning for flags and such; I just have one question. What is your method fo clearing out the wreckage of the past? Guilt is a purly natural emotion resutling from doing something I know to be wrong. It's right that I feel guilty if I do something which hurts innocent people, or myself. I've found out something about guilt. I either have to learn to live with it, or quit doing what makes me feel guilty. Oh, one more thing. For a person to quit solely on his own is like having someone strap me into a straight jacket and throw me into a room. True, the behavior has stopped, but what about the rest of my life? Alcohol is just a symptom of the real problem. What do you suggest a person does about his drunken past and questionable future? Ignore the past and stand around looking for red flags or what?
Just curious....
PS....I'd like to see where you get the stats on the best method of treatment. Thanks..
Pandy, the best to you. I applaud you for giving your way the best shot you can, and I'm praying for your success, because no human being should continue down the road of drunkeness one day more than necessary.
Niner, I know where you're coming from. We all have our own way of carrying the message and the method may not suit all who happen to hear it. But, I always have to remember. I'm not carrying the message to please others. I'm carrying the message to save my life.
Don, I really enjoy reading your posts. A lot of food for thought. I've noticed one thing though. I read a lot about taking care of that urge to drink today and planning for flags and such; I just have one question. What is your method fo clearing out the wreckage of the past? Guilt is a purly natural emotion resutling from doing something I know to be wrong. It's right that I feel guilty if I do something which hurts innocent people, or myself. I've found out something about guilt. I either have to learn to live with it, or quit doing what makes me feel guilty. Oh, one more thing. For a person to quit solely on his own is like having someone strap me into a straight jacket and throw me into a room. True, the behavior has stopped, but what about the rest of my life? Alcohol is just a symptom of the real problem. What do you suggest a person does about his drunken past and questionable future? Ignore the past and stand around looking for red flags or what?
Just curious....
PS....I'd like to see where you get the stats on the best method of treatment. Thanks..
Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 93
Thanks Music, It means a lot to me to hear you say that. I feel counting days isn't really a measure of my success. It's meeting family and friends who have already noticed how much I've changed, without me even knowing it. I just try to improve every single day. Because when it comes down to it - it's my family and friends that mean the world to me.
But Very, Very Bruisable...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palm Springs, Ca.
Posts: 548
There are really only 3 legitimate reasons for someone to maintain a presence here.
1. To get information.
2. To get help/support.
3. To give help/support.
Anything else is usually our need to see our names and opinions in print.
So, (everyone), what are you here for???
1. To get information.
2. To get help/support.
3. To give help/support.
Anything else is usually our need to see our names and opinions in print.
So, (everyone), what are you here for???
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Originally posted by Jon
There are really only 3 legitimate reasons for someone to maintain a presence here.
1. To get information.
2. To get help/support.
3. To give help/support.
Anything else is usually our need to see our names and opinions in print.
So, (everyone), what are you here for???
There are really only 3 legitimate reasons for someone to maintain a presence here.
1. To get information.
2. To get help/support.
3. To give help/support.
Anything else is usually our need to see our names and opinions in print.
So, (everyone), what are you here for???
(1) and (3) primarily.
But although I have confidence in my sobriety, I find that a daily affirmation is a good habit to get into. So (2) also in that sense.
I will give thoughtful replies to Stephanie and Music's questions later. Thanks for your comment, phil.
Don S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Hi Don. Good post and not much to argue with but we are argueing semantics I think. I don't turn my back and walk away from someone because they aren't doing it my way. If they aren't ready to try my way, your way, their way, whatever then what is the point in boring them to death with recovery talk? Did you say three years for that lady? And she wanted to quit? I would suggest to you and everyone else that if someone really wants to quit, they will. And it wont take three years. They may need a lot of support, most of us do, but if they realy mean business they will 'put the plug in the jug and leave it there.'
That is the only way I know that someone is serious about quitting. If they want to continue to drink they will have to do it with someone else. To continue a dialogue with them after months and months going into years is, I feel, enableing them to continue drinking. People need to feel the full weight of their actions. They need to know the consequences of their continued drinking. Look at your own experience. What does that tell you.
The people closest to me had years before I quit begun to leave me to myself. I felt more and more isolated. By the time I arrived at AA, I was basically on my own and out of gas. I still had my ego intact but it was ready finaly to crash. In my case, friends and family did me a favor by leaving me alone so that I could feel the full effect of my actions. They loved me still but could not deal with my symptoms. My program is one of attraction and not promotion. If someone wants to get sober then they are ready to do certain things. The very firt thing they will be ready to do is stop drinking and stay stopped. Everybody say Duh!!!! If they relapse, as is often the case, then they are welcomed back if they again mean business. But from a personal point of view, I only go so far with people who are constant slippers. I am polite with them but dont' have much faith that they will stay sober this time. Thats probably a character defect of mine.
more to the point, with some people, I am very direct. A tough love approach may work and if it doesn't that person was going to drink anyway. We in AA dont' fool ourselves that we are somehow so powerful that we can control someone elses drinking. We simply lay out what has worked for us and let them make the decision. If they want what we have they will make a start. If they dont then we move on. But I dont abandon people because you never know when the light will come on.
On a different note...What facts are you quoting from about the success rates of AA? Has a study been made? And does it have a name?
I'll give you some anecdotal facts. I was rrecently at an AA convention that had 2800 sober alchoics attending. From 1 day to 52 years. It worked very well for them. Most of them.
That is the only way I know that someone is serious about quitting. If they want to continue to drink they will have to do it with someone else. To continue a dialogue with them after months and months going into years is, I feel, enableing them to continue drinking. People need to feel the full weight of their actions. They need to know the consequences of their continued drinking. Look at your own experience. What does that tell you.
The people closest to me had years before I quit begun to leave me to myself. I felt more and more isolated. By the time I arrived at AA, I was basically on my own and out of gas. I still had my ego intact but it was ready finaly to crash. In my case, friends and family did me a favor by leaving me alone so that I could feel the full effect of my actions. They loved me still but could not deal with my symptoms. My program is one of attraction and not promotion. If someone wants to get sober then they are ready to do certain things. The very firt thing they will be ready to do is stop drinking and stay stopped. Everybody say Duh!!!! If they relapse, as is often the case, then they are welcomed back if they again mean business. But from a personal point of view, I only go so far with people who are constant slippers. I am polite with them but dont' have much faith that they will stay sober this time. Thats probably a character defect of mine.
more to the point, with some people, I am very direct. A tough love approach may work and if it doesn't that person was going to drink anyway. We in AA dont' fool ourselves that we are somehow so powerful that we can control someone elses drinking. We simply lay out what has worked for us and let them make the decision. If they want what we have they will make a start. If they dont then we move on. But I dont abandon people because you never know when the light will come on.
On a different note...What facts are you quoting from about the success rates of AA? Has a study been made? And does it have a name?
I'll give you some anecdotal facts. I was rrecently at an AA convention that had 2800 sober alchoics attending. From 1 day to 52 years. It worked very well for them. Most of them.
Growing Up
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: right here
Posts: 614
Niner,
Don't believe we've met, but I've kept up with the discussions here. I would like you to answer Jon. What are you doing here really?
Quoting you: A tough love approach may work and if it doesn't that person was going to drink anyway.
That is exactly the kind of divisive conceited comment that is getting you into trouble. Just thought, since you want so much to be a good person, you may have missed that fact.
Don't believe we've met, but I've kept up with the discussions here. I would like you to answer Jon. What are you doing here really?
Quoting you: A tough love approach may work and if it doesn't that person was going to drink anyway.
That is exactly the kind of divisive conceited comment that is getting you into trouble. Just thought, since you want so much to be a good person, you may have missed that fact.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
it is so different trying to help people over the internet, most of the people that I know who have been sober numerous years, have at times been in the trenches helping our fellows face to face, be it at meetings, hospitals, jails and other institutions, or on skid row.
nowadays most people have already been dried out before making it to a meeting, but there are still those 12 step calls we go on, and have been going on for years.
I know that a few on this thread have indead actually been there, I think we can learn from their experience, be it AA, Smart, RR, whatever, at least we are trying to help and make a difference.
everybody has important things to contribute if you have 1 day or 20 years, and I would like to learn from those who have actually been there.
nowadays most people have already been dried out before making it to a meeting, but there are still those 12 step calls we go on, and have been going on for years.
I know that a few on this thread have indead actually been there, I think we can learn from their experience, be it AA, Smart, RR, whatever, at least we are trying to help and make a difference.
everybody has important things to contribute if you have 1 day or 20 years, and I would like to learn from those who have actually been there.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Devisive and conceited???
I think not!
The AA Big Book suggest that we try some controlled drinking if we're not ready to stop entirely. Is this suggestion devisive or conceited? If I say to someone, "If you're not ready to quit, or aren't sure if you want to quit, or if you're in doubt as to whether you're alcoholic or not, try some controlled drinking and see how that works for you." This message might be construed by some as being tough love. Is the message divisive or conceited? Don't think so!
One of my pigeons told me one night at a meeting that he wasn't sure he was willing to go to any lenth, and furthermore, wasn't sure he wanted what AA had to offer. I suggested to him that he go back out and drink some more until he could make up his mind. Was my suggestion divisive and conceited? Maybe he thinkgs so. I have no desire to talk my head off to someone who doesn't want to hear what I have to say. The Big Book also says that "John Barleycorn" is our best convincer. So, I let good old John do the work.
People can label what's told to them in a lot of ways if they aren't ready to hear the message. The word "touch" has a certain connotation and ring to it. To some folks, it may mean pain and displeasure. If a person hasn't felt enough pain and displeasure when he comes to AA, here's a ready excuse not to listen. Problem is, he neglected to take the second word, "love" into consideration. Maybe this is the problem here. Most people come to AA not having a clue what love is, let alone feeling like they deserve to be loved. Thank God I stuck around long enough to find out that the people who were showing me tough love,(honesty)really did have my best interests at heart.
The AA Big Book suggest that we try some controlled drinking if we're not ready to stop entirely. Is this suggestion devisive or conceited? If I say to someone, "If you're not ready to quit, or aren't sure if you want to quit, or if you're in doubt as to whether you're alcoholic or not, try some controlled drinking and see how that works for you." This message might be construed by some as being tough love. Is the message divisive or conceited? Don't think so!
One of my pigeons told me one night at a meeting that he wasn't sure he was willing to go to any lenth, and furthermore, wasn't sure he wanted what AA had to offer. I suggested to him that he go back out and drink some more until he could make up his mind. Was my suggestion divisive and conceited? Maybe he thinkgs so. I have no desire to talk my head off to someone who doesn't want to hear what I have to say. The Big Book also says that "John Barleycorn" is our best convincer. So, I let good old John do the work.
People can label what's told to them in a lot of ways if they aren't ready to hear the message. The word "touch" has a certain connotation and ring to it. To some folks, it may mean pain and displeasure. If a person hasn't felt enough pain and displeasure when he comes to AA, here's a ready excuse not to listen. Problem is, he neglected to take the second word, "love" into consideration. Maybe this is the problem here. Most people come to AA not having a clue what love is, let alone feeling like they deserve to be loved. Thank God I stuck around long enough to find out that the people who were showing me tough love,(honesty)really did have my best interests at heart.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Leaving Sparta
Posts: 2,912
The Phenomenon of "enabling" is real.
"Enabling" as I understand it means: The process by which we help to maintain an atmosphere that allows dysfunction to continue and where the individual is not allowed to feel the consequences of their own action.
"Enabling" can not only be harmful to the person who is being enabled but it can also be harmful for the person doing the enabling.
"Tough love" or "detachment" is one known course of treatment to the problem of enabling but we sometimes tend to forget that "tough love" is sometimes harder on the person giving "tough love" than on the person recieving it.
Al anon was the first place I heard "tough love" described.
I heard friends , lovers , and family members describe situations and conditions with people whom they loved and cared about very deeply. I heard them talk about relationships with people that were causing them tremendous grief.
"Tough love" provided a soloution to freedom from obsessive and compulsive behavior and freedom from harmful relationships.
"Tough love" does not mean that we do not care about people. It means that we detach ourselves from their dysfunctional behaviour and we allow them to suffer their own consequences.
We sometimes use the term "tough love" too loosely.
I do not believe we practise "tough love" on someone who we are not in some way bound to.
Telling someone a few simple truths about themselves is in my opinion not "tough love".
I have had people call me on my s*** before and I too have copped resentments and stormed off in a huff but in the end when the voice of reason returned I had to say.....thank God for those firm handed people who did not allow me to continue in my dysfunction.
My Higher Power uses people to speak to me and when I hear something that causes me to cop a resentment I have a responsibility to stop and ask myself an important question........What is it about what the person said that is offending me and why ?
Putting pen to paper and honestly journaling my answer can be extremely enlightening.
No one ever had the ability to chase me out of a bar or a drinking session by their words or actions when i was actively drinking and drugging. I certainly will not be running from a recovery oriented environment because of something somebody said before I sat down and honestly checked my motives for taking flight.
Don't shoot the messenger......don't bash the radio because you do not like the song that is playing.....the song is coming from a higher source......
I am fortunate because I have encountered many people on my road through recovery.....the gentle ones who offered me comfort when I needed it and the firm handed ones who did'nt hesitate to give me a foot up the ass when they thought I needed to get on with it......I learn from them all.....
We all have earned the right to be here and we all have a message to share.......I stay because I want what you have to offer.
I don't worry too much when I see the newcomers heading for the door....I know they will be back soon........
As addicts and alcoholics we tend to want things on our terms all the time but the reality is we can't.........the day we wake up to that realization is the day we begin the process of changing our dysfuntional behaviours and attitudes.
"Enabling" as I understand it means: The process by which we help to maintain an atmosphere that allows dysfunction to continue and where the individual is not allowed to feel the consequences of their own action.
"Enabling" can not only be harmful to the person who is being enabled but it can also be harmful for the person doing the enabling.
"Tough love" or "detachment" is one known course of treatment to the problem of enabling but we sometimes tend to forget that "tough love" is sometimes harder on the person giving "tough love" than on the person recieving it.
Al anon was the first place I heard "tough love" described.
I heard friends , lovers , and family members describe situations and conditions with people whom they loved and cared about very deeply. I heard them talk about relationships with people that were causing them tremendous grief.
"Tough love" provided a soloution to freedom from obsessive and compulsive behavior and freedom from harmful relationships.
"Tough love" does not mean that we do not care about people. It means that we detach ourselves from their dysfunctional behaviour and we allow them to suffer their own consequences.
We sometimes use the term "tough love" too loosely.
I do not believe we practise "tough love" on someone who we are not in some way bound to.
Telling someone a few simple truths about themselves is in my opinion not "tough love".
I have had people call me on my s*** before and I too have copped resentments and stormed off in a huff but in the end when the voice of reason returned I had to say.....thank God for those firm handed people who did not allow me to continue in my dysfunction.
My Higher Power uses people to speak to me and when I hear something that causes me to cop a resentment I have a responsibility to stop and ask myself an important question........What is it about what the person said that is offending me and why ?
Putting pen to paper and honestly journaling my answer can be extremely enlightening.
No one ever had the ability to chase me out of a bar or a drinking session by their words or actions when i was actively drinking and drugging. I certainly will not be running from a recovery oriented environment because of something somebody said before I sat down and honestly checked my motives for taking flight.
Don't shoot the messenger......don't bash the radio because you do not like the song that is playing.....the song is coming from a higher source......
I am fortunate because I have encountered many people on my road through recovery.....the gentle ones who offered me comfort when I needed it and the firm handed ones who did'nt hesitate to give me a foot up the ass when they thought I needed to get on with it......I learn from them all.....
We all have earned the right to be here and we all have a message to share.......I stay because I want what you have to offer.
I don't worry too much when I see the newcomers heading for the door....I know they will be back soon........
As addicts and alcoholics we tend to want things on our terms all the time but the reality is we can't.........the day we wake up to that realization is the day we begin the process of changing our dysfuntional behaviours and attitudes.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Mountaingirl....I am here to give and get information. To share what I know and learn from others. More recently and after long days of soul searching and checking my motives, I have been engaged in a very difficult task of what I called 'tough love'. I think Peter is correct though, for it to be tough love one has to be bonded to the person in some way. So, to be more accurate, I have been calling someone on their stuff, not because I care so much about him but because this forum in general was not IMO carrying a responsible message. It, the forum, was IMO enableing this person in his continued drinking. Some will regard this as arrogant or egotistical on my part. Maybe, maybe not. I felt it was necessary to throw a bucket of water on everyone participating in 'that thread' to wake them up to the rrealities of what they were doing. And all in the name of helping someone. I know thay meant well, I have no doubt of that. I know they truly care about this man, more than I do, but their message was not producing results. He continued to drink and their continued involvement with him was an enableing factor. And believe me, I thought long and hard before I posted. Was it the right thing to do, and who do I think I am anyway to challenge a whole group of people.
No one, not the site owner, the moderator, or any other person with time was posting on this thread. There didn't seem to be the usual mix of oldtimers and newcomers sharing their own personal truths where everyone comes away better than when they arrived. Where everyone learns something. Newcomers, and you are one, need oldtimers whether they think so or not. I know this because I was a newcomer and was routinely pissed off by oldtimers when I was new. 'What the hell do they know anyway?' 'That old fart hasn't had a drink in so long he cant possibly relate to where I'm at.' So on and so forth. And I was called up short several times by other members because I was just being me. A jerk. A baby in a grown mans body. Not every answer I had was wrong, just most of them. And all the ones that really counted. I had to learn to shut my mouth and listen to people who had gone before me and succeeded. I had to learn to take instruction. And my life improved. And I stayed sober throughout all the growing pains that are continuing as we speak.
Jon knows why I'm here. That was a rhetorical question put to everyone. That was a reminder to everyone. But whatever usefulness I may have had here may be over. It may be time for me to move on. I got my sobriety from real live flesh and blood human beings at f2f AA meetings. They can look you in the eye and watch your body langueage and you will get immediate results, good or bad, from what you say. Meetings are the cauldrons from which recovered alcoholics emerge. It is too easy in some ways to post an opinion here and then walk away. Someone doesn't like what you have to say? Screw em. You cant get away with that in a f2f meeting. There are immediate repercussions which serve to keep everyone in check for the most part. And everyone who really wants recovery comes away better for the experience. It is too easy to hide the real me here behind the computer screen. I need feed back from people who know me and care.
In some ways it is harder to post here for the same reasons. What would be taken as a joke in a f2f meeting can be misconstrued here and send any number of people to their keyboards all pissed off. We cant see each others facial expresions, that is very important. So a person may say one thing when it is obviouls to look at him he means something else.
Whatever, these forums have helped me hone my thinking and forced me to try to say exactly what I feel. It has been hard recently and I agree with Peter. Tough love can be harder on the person giving it than the person receiving it. Believe me it is a draining experience. But I would do it again. I think I have grown from this experience, but it is too soon to tell.
For the most part I have a happy and contented sobriety and that is what I wish for you Mountaingirl and everyone else. Stick with the winners and dont be too quick to judge. And for all you AA's, Rule 62
No one, not the site owner, the moderator, or any other person with time was posting on this thread. There didn't seem to be the usual mix of oldtimers and newcomers sharing their own personal truths where everyone comes away better than when they arrived. Where everyone learns something. Newcomers, and you are one, need oldtimers whether they think so or not. I know this because I was a newcomer and was routinely pissed off by oldtimers when I was new. 'What the hell do they know anyway?' 'That old fart hasn't had a drink in so long he cant possibly relate to where I'm at.' So on and so forth. And I was called up short several times by other members because I was just being me. A jerk. A baby in a grown mans body. Not every answer I had was wrong, just most of them. And all the ones that really counted. I had to learn to shut my mouth and listen to people who had gone before me and succeeded. I had to learn to take instruction. And my life improved. And I stayed sober throughout all the growing pains that are continuing as we speak.
Jon knows why I'm here. That was a rhetorical question put to everyone. That was a reminder to everyone. But whatever usefulness I may have had here may be over. It may be time for me to move on. I got my sobriety from real live flesh and blood human beings at f2f AA meetings. They can look you in the eye and watch your body langueage and you will get immediate results, good or bad, from what you say. Meetings are the cauldrons from which recovered alcoholics emerge. It is too easy in some ways to post an opinion here and then walk away. Someone doesn't like what you have to say? Screw em. You cant get away with that in a f2f meeting. There are immediate repercussions which serve to keep everyone in check for the most part. And everyone who really wants recovery comes away better for the experience. It is too easy to hide the real me here behind the computer screen. I need feed back from people who know me and care.
In some ways it is harder to post here for the same reasons. What would be taken as a joke in a f2f meeting can be misconstrued here and send any number of people to their keyboards all pissed off. We cant see each others facial expresions, that is very important. So a person may say one thing when it is obviouls to look at him he means something else.
Whatever, these forums have helped me hone my thinking and forced me to try to say exactly what I feel. It has been hard recently and I agree with Peter. Tough love can be harder on the person giving it than the person receiving it. Believe me it is a draining experience. But I would do it again. I think I have grown from this experience, but it is too soon to tell.
For the most part I have a happy and contented sobriety and that is what I wish for you Mountaingirl and everyone else. Stick with the winners and dont be too quick to judge. And for all you AA's, Rule 62
Growing Up
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: right here
Posts: 614
You know what Niner? That was a really thoughtful response. Instead of defensive, it was real. I appreciate that you took the time to tell me all that.
I certainly agree with you about the ways in which communicating here is different from f2f relationships. I find it fascinating because people are so honest. What is the point in being anything else? But we have some amazing other advantages here. In an anonymous forum, we have none of the environmental issues, physical challenges, or even intellectual inequities that we all face daily in life and in the work place. No race, no age, no gender, no space and time. I can come on my own time and see what you wrote hours ago, and respond as if you are listening now. I really enjoy it.
But as you said, there is the danger about how things are taken. For instance, I wrote you just a few lines Niner, and I could have been smiling saying them - relaxed and in a silly mood, poking you in the arm. Or I could have been standing, hands on hips, with a furrowed brow....who knows right
So we all have to be careful how we come across. Myself included!!! Myself primarily, as a matter of fact, since I have so much to learn.
"I think I have grown from this experience, but it is too soon to tell."
Me too.
(smiling here)
I certainly agree with you about the ways in which communicating here is different from f2f relationships. I find it fascinating because people are so honest. What is the point in being anything else? But we have some amazing other advantages here. In an anonymous forum, we have none of the environmental issues, physical challenges, or even intellectual inequities that we all face daily in life and in the work place. No race, no age, no gender, no space and time. I can come on my own time and see what you wrote hours ago, and respond as if you are listening now. I really enjoy it.
But as you said, there is the danger about how things are taken. For instance, I wrote you just a few lines Niner, and I could have been smiling saying them - relaxed and in a silly mood, poking you in the arm. Or I could have been standing, hands on hips, with a furrowed brow....who knows right
So we all have to be careful how we come across. Myself included!!! Myself primarily, as a matter of fact, since I have so much to learn."I think I have grown from this experience, but it is too soon to tell."
Me too.
(smiling here)
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by Don S
Hi, Jon,
(1) and (3) primarily.
But although I have confidence in my sobriety, I find that a daily affirmation is a good habit to get into. So (2) also in that sense.
I will give thoughtful replies to Stephanie and Music's questions later. Thanks for your comment, phil.
Don S
Hi, Jon,
(1) and (3) primarily.
But although I have confidence in my sobriety, I find that a daily affirmation is a good habit to get into. So (2) also in that sense.
I will give thoughtful replies to Stephanie and Music's questions later. Thanks for your comment, phil.
Don S
I'm still waiting with anticipation.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Howya doin Don...I'm sure you're putting together a very informative piece, but please don't make it too long cuzz we still have to read it.
All I really need is your sources. You know, newspapers, magazines, books, scientific journals, the internet. Whatevr you used to base your statements on.
All I really need is your sources. You know, newspapers, magazines, books, scientific journals, the internet. Whatevr you used to base your statements on.
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 1,432
Hi, niner,
I have other URL's saved somewhere, but Stanton Peele gives a good overview in this article:
http://www.peele.net/lib/niaaa.html
That'll keep us busy for a while...
Don S
I have other URL's saved somewhere, but Stanton Peele gives a good overview in this article:
http://www.peele.net/lib/niaaa.html
That'll keep us busy for a while...
Don S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Thanks Don. I did a search on 'Project Match' and came up with this. It is different that Stanton Peeles interpretation in some ways.
http//:www.commed.uchc.edu/match/ucbs/default.htm
Scroll down to Main Findings:
http//:www.commed.uchc.edu/match/ucbs/default.htm
Scroll down to Main Findings:
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