Ninerfan

Pan I'm sorry your nose is out of joint. I hope you get better soon cause I'm not your problem. I would like to conduct a civil discussion about whatever comes up as long as it is on topic. Do you have any comments regarding the topic?

panadolsandwich

Yes I do as it happens, because I feel this thread doesn't belong here. It belongs in the AA forum.

And Stephanie I am happy, but this to me is fraudulent and hypocritical in the extreme. What tell me to get lost and make an on-topic post - don't make me laugh. This charlatan here was posting unwanted posts over and over again in my friend's thread and has probably driven him away forever.

If you're not man enough to make an apology Niner, you know what I mean, than so be it. I feel sorry for you. I'm not sure what your age is, but I believe you're setting yourself up for a great fall.

Ninerfan

Pan if you have a problem with me send me a PM. If you think this thread belongs somewhere else take it up with whoever is responsible for those things. Your friend is free to come or go as he pleases as are you. Nothing is keeping him off these boards except him. And nothing is keeping you here either. You dont like me, I dont care. Anything else?

panadolsandwich

Niner, it's not that I don't like you. And why can't we clear the air in the open for all to see? Believe me I've got better things to do then be the thorn in someone's side.

Look I wouldn't be reaching out like this if I didn't feel it was worthwhile (and you're not making it any easier btw). But can you see how if you can.. I mean christ doesn't AA preach understanding???

Your lack of compassion astounds me. "You don't like me - I don't care." You say. Is that the common belief held by all these ppl here, among your AA members. I am wasting my time, I've got no doubt you will succumb again because your beloved 12 step program, you don't understand it, from reading all your posts. I feel incredibly sorry for you.

CarolD

G.B. Shaw "Youth is wasted on the young"

Ninerfan

Pan I dont know what you want from me. I dont owe you or your friend an apology. I gave him the truth. That is compassion. I dont care if you dont understand. If you stay sober you might one day. He needs to stop all the games and get serious about his drinking as you have apparantly done. In other threads I have admitted that m style of delivery was bad but the message was not. That is the best I can do for you. Now I'm going to bed and I suggest you do the same. Dont know what time it is down there but it is late here. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

panadolsandwich

Ok well, I have to say the record is plain to see. I made a request for understanding and tolerance. Life is full of such disappointments. It's not going to get me down.

I am at a loss that by simply sticking up for a friend and wanting a change here to be more open and tolerant has been so upsetting for ppl. Surely AA promotes *some* form of tolerance and understanding.

Yes I will take it up with the site owner for his consideration. Personally I feel this thread is completely AA oriented, and therefore should be put in the AA forum.

I don't mind ppl of whatever reason of sobriety commenting on the Alcoholism forum, but when the message is so strongly AA based, it really should be slotted where it belongs.

I think often the poster will post on a forum that gains the most exposure, eg. this thread would have been more appropriate in the AA forum, but the proponent realising he won't be read there posts it here.

panadolsandwich

Let me explain why I feel sorry for you. I feel that your satisfaction in posting here is in feeding off newcomers who are either driven down or converted. I think this is very sad. I recognise that behaviour from the playground and how old are you? If you are unable to make some sort of acknowledgement that you are wrong, than I guess that is how it is. I hope you have fun with all your 'friends and cronies'. I personally don't want to be around when it all comes crashing down - although having said that I'd still give you a hand to get back on your feet. At the moment you disgust me. Grow up.

The Jay Walker

Hello all

This forum is

"For people who wish to quit drinking or who have quit and would like to discuss issues connected with abstaining from alcohol."

sorry if AA somehow offends some of you, but the fact is that this is an alcoholism forum, and a lot of people use AA to combat their alcoholism.

If talk of AA on a message board can upset some to this extent, I really don't know what to say, as has been stated over and over and over, by Jon the site owner, as well as by the other mods,

"this forum is open for discusion for anybody regardless of what program or beliefes they have, as long as they are here to help build this comunity, and not tear it down."

I know of a forum were AA is not allowed, anyone can PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

Jay

Music

In some cases, I believe so!
There's an old saying that goes, "If you give a man a fish, you can feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he can feed himself for life." Who's the important subject here? Me, or the other person? I believe true compassion is shown in being honest and at the same time being willing to help. Honest about what the problem is, and remaining willing to help with that problem if help is desired. I believe God helped me to find AA and get sober. He did this by allowing me to hurt bad enough to want help, and at the same time telling me through other people that I needed help. Until I was ready to hear His message, I was helpless. He allowed me to be that way. Was God showing compassion or tough love? To me, in this example, they're one in the same. If God had enabled me, if He had covered up all my sins and gave me the message that everythings ok, I'll keep covering up for you until you're ready, I would never have sobered up! Why should I? Where are the consequences of my actions? If one of my kids was to write a bad check and I make the check good, what's the message here? The message is, it's ok to write bad checks 'cause Dad will pick up the tab. If he sits in jail for writing a bad check, the message is a little different. Some of you would consider the latter to be mean, insensitive, uncaring and unloving. I consider it to be tough love and compassionate. Chances are the kid won't write any more bad checks.

Whatever the perception, patting someone on the a$$ when they've done something they know to be wrong is of no use to them or anyone else. Sometimes a swift kick is the only way to deliver the message. If the swift kick draws positive attention and changes are made, so much the better. If the kick draws negative attention and draws another tap beer.....oh well!!

I don't guess there's any way to prove or disprove whether anyone has been driven away from SR due to the delivery of certain messages. Maybe there is. I would bet though that for every one driven away, there is one who's gotten the message and stuck around. The 12th step states that, "Having had a spiritual wakening as the result of these steps, we "tried" to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all or our affairs." All I can do is "try" to carry my message to other alcoholics. Whether they pick up on it or not is not my responsibility. The other alcoholic has to want to hear what I'm saying. If someone's been covering for them, they'll keep searching for the easier, softer way. Good luck! I will not keep covering for someone, thinking that I'm being compassionate, and doing them a service. I was at a meeting last night with my youngest son, who's been sober for 14 years. He told a story about when he was in a halfway house, sober about 60 days. I was visiting him and he stated that he didn't like the rules there at the house. He said, "they just aren't fair." I suggested to him at that time that every night he drop to his knees and thank God for not keeping score, because if life was fair, and he got what he deserved, he'd probably be dead. Tough love......maybe! Compassionate....I think so!

Don S

The problem, niner, isn't that you were tough, honest, or direct. Those would be desirable characteristics, albeit hard to take.
-->>You were rude and made personally offensive comments, and compounded them when you were called on it.<<--
When someone posted a comment about a book he'd found helpful, you posted a snide comment about how he shouldn't post until he had more sobriety under his belt. I've asked you before: how was that helpful to anyone? Your comments to Wiebe were directly, personally insulting to him. You have said that I am 'enabling' him because I don't use your direct, confrontational approach, that I and others should tell him not to post anymore unless he quits drinking.
And that's just for starters.
I believe the term 'enabling' is just another example of how guilt is used by extreme AA members. I believe THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENABLING. I believe (please note my use of that) that to be counterproductive. You were among the handful of folks who openly criticized my beliefs when I first came to this board, and you often do that in a patently offensive manner. I'm glad others quickly rose to balance your message.
You said on the locked thread that you are sorry, but you can't change. Think about that, niner. If you can quit drinking, you can change your tone of 'voice'. Maybe you'd do better to write your posts separately, sleep on them, ask yourself the next day if the post will be productive and will help someone in recovery, and reconsider your language before actually hitting the Submit button. I believe you would reconsider a number of your posts. The record is there for anyone who wants to see it.
And yes, you really do belong over on the AA forum. You've even said on this forum that you have to keep reminding yourself that it isn't an AA forum.
What is the reason for two separate forums in the first place, Jay?
Don S

Jon

"Do you hear me
Do you care
Do you hear me
Do you care

My lips are moving and the sound's coming out
The words are audible but I have my doubts
That you realize what has been said
You look at me as if you're in a daze
It's like the feeling at the end of the page
when you realize you don't know what you just read

What are words for when no one listens anymore
What are words for when no one listens
What are words for when no one listens it's no use talkin at all"

(Missing Persons)

My thoughts and beliefs translate to my opinions.

My experiences and my actions equate to my truth.

Today, I want to be evaluated by my truth, not my opinions.

Icannot help others with opinion. I can only help others by sharing what has worked for me. Since my goal is to help, rather than debate, the only thing that matters is my actions, not my words.

"Your actions speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying..."

Nice.

Ninerfan

don I really dont like doing this. It is very non-productive to dredge up posts from the past but to the best of my memory the 'seven weeks to sobriety' book post was, to me, riculous. And its OK if you dont agree. The man had I think 3 weeks sober at the time he posted. If you dont see the humor and absurdity in that I am not surprised.

In terms of 'that other thread' and that other person just how long were you going to go along with his BS. He would be weaning himself off booze forever if he listened to you. No one was calling him on his ****. That is what I consider enabling. Read Musics post about tough love. It can be useful. I used it. Deal with it. Now move on. The man is free to come back here and post. Your energy would be better spent in talking to him or better yet, leave him alone. Let him stew a little longer. If he is meant to get sober then he will, if he is not all the talk in the world will not help right now. He has been talked to to death. He has some decisions to make.

And, now pay attention Don, I dont care what you think of me. It is true I regard you with skepticism. I mistrust your motives for being here and I think you know why. If you are unsure Pm me and I will tell you. I dont like the way you talk about AA. And you have made several desparaging comments about how it doesn't work any better than any other system for sobriety. All this despite the fact that you claim to never have been to a meeting or read the Big Book of Alcoholics anonymous. It that is a true statement then please be quiet on this issue, you only show your ignorance. If it is impirical proof you want start counting the people on this forum who got sober the AA way. You can begin with me. If AA is not for you so be it. But this forum is not dedicated to alternative ways of sobriety and I will post here until told by proper authority not to. That should answer Panadols question as well.

Finally I remind myself that this is not an AA forum because I know it upsets people like you and Panadol. So in the spirit of friendship I try to keep it to a minimum. When people are angry or upset they dont listen to what is being said. That doesn't make my message wrong. it just imposes an extra responsibility on me to TRY to convey the message in the least offensive manner possible. You and Panadol seem to be upset over your friends departure from these boards more than me posting about AA here. I understand that and will be tolerant, for a while. But only a while Don. Other people are involved with this thread, they seem to be deriving some benefit from it. Do you see that?

Don S

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ninerfan
[B]don I really dont like doing this. It is very non-productive to dredge up posts from the past but to the best of my memory the 'seven weeks to sobriety' book post was, to me, riculous.
-->>He found the book helpful. You ridiculed him. That, for the third time, is productive--how?

snip

Your energy would be better spent in talking to him or better yet, leave him alone. Let him stew a little longer.
-->>I am talking to him, and consider communication to be helpful even for those who aren't getting sober at your pace or mine, or by your means or mine.

And, now pay attention Don, I dont care what you think of me. It is true I regard you with skepticism. I mistrust your motives for being here and I think you know why. If you are unsure Pm me and I will tell you.
-->>No, I think it would be best if you stated your mistrust and concern about my motivation right here where everyone can see it.

I dont like the way you talk about AA. And you have made several desparaging comments about how it doesn't work any better than any other system for sobriety.
-->>I have said, and will say again, that there is no evidence that AA works better or worse than any other program for sobriety. It is a fact that the majority of people who quit do so on their own. That isn't disparaging AA. It works for many people, and folks give anecdotal evidence of that all the time.

All this despite the fact that you claim to never have been to a meeting or read the Big Book of Alcoholics anonymous. It that is a true statement then please be quiet on this issue, you only show your ignorance.
-->>Why? My attendance at meetings or reading of the big book is not necessary to achieve an understanding of AA, nor does it in any way affect my statement regarding how effective AA or any other program is.

snip

When people are angry or upset they dont listen to what is being said. That doesn't make my message wrong. it just imposes an extra responsibility on me to TRY to convey the message in the least offensive manner possible.
-->>I am listening very closely to what you are saying. I am replying to it with as much factual info as I can. When it is my opinion, I usually preface it with "I believe" or "In my opinion". I try to speak from my own experience as much as possible, and not predict what will happen to other people or prescribe my own belief system. And I try not to be offensive, but I really don't believe you are trying not to be offensive--your tone and content are what started this whole thing, after all, not mine.

You and Panadol seem to be upset over your friends departure from these boards more than me posting about AA here. I understand that and will be tolerant, for a while. But only a while Don. Other people are involved with this thread, they seem to be deriving some benefit from it. Do you see that?
-->>I said before, and will say again: You were rude and made personally offensive comments, and compounded them when you were called on it. Do you see that?
Don S

phil

Hello everyone,

Choice of program if any is strickly up the individual, Don please with all due respect. It really isnt nessesary to air out an assumtion that more people stop on their own . Whats the purpose? to help? Why give new commers an opportunity from which to decide not to choose any program? Why plant the seed as to say forget a program?Theres no basis and Even if it is true why outline AA? Why not SMART? Why not Rational? Let the individual decide how to proceed with their own recovery. Its not right to single out any group. AA happens to come up in alot of forums. But it also happens to be leader in addictive treatment some 90,000 meetings a week world wide. (and thats according to SMARTS) Its very well known. Many dependent people are curious about it and how it works. Why in this world would you have anything bad to say about it. Trueth or Assumption? either way it has no merit and they should be praised not ridiculed.

If you have your preferrence keep it but, let others decide. You work your program and let others work theirs. But you really dont have to keep popping up with negatives about any program. AA nor any other group deserves that. All programs deserve praise for the effort. And we owe thanks. So give it a rest folks and lets get back to basics. Staying Sober!

Phil

Ninerfan

Don I'm tired of this. I have been involved with this topic for way too long. It is time for a breather. For you as well. What you call rude and personally offensive comments I call 'tough love.' Could I have done it better,` absolutely. Tough love is not one of my fortes, believe it or not, but I did the best I could considering I had to take on practically the whole forum. And some of those people were AA's whom I shouldn't have had to tackle. He, your friend, was not gettijng with any program as far as I could tell and yet NO ONE cared enough about him to tell him. Not on line, not when I was reading that thread. It was basically well thats ok youlll quit when your ready. Dont stress over your latest slip. Yuch!!!! I know you have a different opinion on that issue but it doesn't matter. We will never agree on this issue so why are you continuing this dialogue?

You and I get distracted by too many questions in one thread so let us stick to one question for now, OK.

And that is, Is their ever a time in your philosophy of sobriety when you have to move on because the person you are working with is just not getting it?

Don S

"Is their ever a time in your philosophy of sobriety when you have to move on because the person you are working with is just not getting it?"

Not really, no. If I was only talking to one person, face to face, and it was clear they weren't understanding the conversation, then perhaps I'd give up.

But there are lots of other people reading the threads here, sharing their experiences and discussing all the issues -- difficulty with commitment to sobriety, daily frustrations, the medical aspects of heavy drinking, and more.

These are group conversations which people come in and out of, often lurking for quite a while before they post (if they do at all). So, while I do come to care about the individuals I realize that the ramifications of the conversation extend way beyond them. That's another reason the words do matter, as does the tone.

Given that I kept drinking for a couple of years after I realized (sort of vaguely realized, but had moved past stout denial at least) that it would be more rational to quit, I tend to give folks a lot of latitude about how long they take to make the commitment that you and I know is necessary for successful, long-term sobriety.

I don't know how long it took you to make that commitment and stick with it. I know that when I did arrive at the belief that alcohol had no place in my life, it seemed sudden and powerful. There was no looking back. But there was a time when it didn't seem that simple, and I try to remember that. I also think that communication is almost always productive.

On another forum board there is a woman who has been posting for three years--three years!--who earnestly wants to quit drinking and drugging. She's tried every recovery program out there. She quits, she lapses, she berates herself, and on and on. I know that the limitations of this medium mean that all others can do, if we wish to help, is post words that might get through to her at some level. Sometimes the posts do. But others have read her posts and the replies and made great use of them. So not only will I not give up on her--simply because she is a human I've come to care about at some level--but I recognize that her situation has useful lessons for all of us.

So let me turn the question around: what would be the point in walking away?

Don S

ps-phil, I think you've misunderstood me a little. Yes, I DO think it's useful for people to know that they have the power to change themselves. I don't think any system has a monopoly on effective recovery. ANY recovery program is likely to work if we share the core philosophy, make a commitment, and are persistent.

Many people find AA meetings useful because of the group support they provide, even if they don't 'adopt' the whole philosophy or even work the steps. Every recovery program I'm familiar with focuses strongly on avoiding that first drink, and meetings and peer support can be crucial to that.

But it is a fact--not a disparagement, or an opinion, or an assumption-- that AA does not have a higher recovery rate than any other program, and that most people who quit successfully do so on their own. When I first came to this forum I innocently stated this, and the reaction was fast and furious (my favorite was the person who told me to 'take my self-righteous stick out of my *ss'). They seemed to think it was something I'd made up.

I realized that they were taking the stated fact personally, almost as an affront to their basic beliefs about their own sobriety. That is missing a key point: YOU are not a statistic. A boy whose father and grandfather abuse alcohol is 900 times more likely to do so than one whose father and grandfather don't--but that doesn't determine what my son will do. He has the power of choice, tempered by the temptations of his peers but strengthened by our new and effective communication.

Studies have shown that people who successfully achieve long-term sobriety have three characteristics in common, and all three of these can be achieved through AA or any other program:
--they make a commitment to abstinence;
--they make lifestyle changes that enhance that commitment;
--they plan and practice for urges, in order to prevent lapses.

I believe that anyone can accomplish that, and that they can find the support that helps them from face-to-face meetings, sponsors, online meetings, forum boards, family, friends--or from within.

Don S

ratnel

My dog is bigger than yours

phil

Fair enough, Point well taken.

For myself I know that at my stage of drinking I cant stop. And my detox absolutely (Horrid) not exactly what I needed to hear. What I needed to hear? There is Hope. There is a solution. So whether true or not, be sensitive in the sense that not everyone before coming to these boards. Has done hours of reasearch. Remember many have tried on thier own and failed. Thats why they came here. To seek help! Even if it is fact Why? Again Whats the purpose? To point out you dont need a program. Not everyone needs one. What difference would that make here? Many of us have gotten to the point as we drank ourself into an un reversible slump. Seeking help is the purpose for this forum and every program in existence. To state that only implies that for some they can do it alone. For others they may just kill themselves trying. I think I'll stick with a program.

The statement is understood. Its purpose however isnt.

God Bless, Phil

Stephanie

Hi guys,

I don't mean to interrupt the present discussion. I am just very curious about something that you said Don and I just wanted to clarify it for my own understanding.

When you say most people quit successfully on their own, I had always thought you meant by just quitting without a program or support. However, in your last post you stated that they can accomplish that through f2f meetings, sponsors, online meetings, forum boards, family, friends---or from within.

So are you saying that the fact states that people who quit on their own translates to people who seek out some kind of recovery then, regardless of what it is.

I was under the impression that you were talking about people like my husband who quit and don't seek any form of recovery. From personal experience, I myself would not be an advocate of this method. I have seen first hand what an alcoholic can be like by just merely taking the alcohol out of the equation and it aint pretty. Jay Hay asked the question recently, "what is a dry drunk" Some of the members explained it
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/show...threadid=26254

If you take a look at the alanon boards you can get a picture of the devastating affects the dry drunk can have on the family.

My feeling is that when people mention AA to the newcomer, it is a means to tell them that recovery is the best road to sobriety and AA just happens to be what they know.

I do agree that if I were attempting to actively seek out people who need my wisdom to get sober, I would not be advocating they quit on their own without support or recovery. The rewards I get for helping a fellow suffering alcoholic are purely selfish in nature. I don't believe I have the answers to people's problems, my ego's not that big. However, I did get sober and have been for quite some time and it makes me feel good and keeps me sober when I can pass that message along.

I do believe that It's attraction, not promotion. When I'm asked for help, I freely give it. It's not up to me to decide any one else's fate or to make sure they know which program is good or the best way. It's to share how I did things because that's what I own and that's what I have to give away.

I happen to agree wholehartedly with this following statement. I have wanted to say this from the beginning of the whole mess to all you guys.

."It is important for him to realize that your attempt to pass this on to him plays a vital part in your recovery. Actually, he may be helping you more than you are helping him".


We help others because it helps US!!!! Let me say that again. I help others because it helps me!!!! I know I have to remind myself of that. I don't have the answers to anyone else's problems and it's not good for me to think that I do. I merely have my own experience to share and hope that it helps