Where do all the professional people go?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by paulokes 
Miami...I attend and live in the 'real-life' AA as do tomsteve, Gottalife etc... 
Of course I understand if the way we describe AA is not the way you experienced it or remember it.
The more you talk about this the more some of your experiences make sense though. In general, no sponsor would accept you saying that you had already worked the steps...it's quite common actually for people to say "Well I've kind of already done steps 3 and 4" etc. There is more to the process, a sponsor would be short changing you if they let you get away with that.
One of the biggest stopping points in AA I think is fear and mistrust...asking a sponsor for help ( unconditionally) to understand and work the steps is in my opinion absolutely essential to working the steps. Some folks don't get past this because they can't find the right person, some folks can't swallow their pride enough to ask for help.
In my experience that is the biggest barrier to people experiencing the 'real AA' and then all the know is the surface one you see and hear about in meetings.
P
Of course I understand if the way we describe AA is not the way you experienced it or remember it.The more you talk about this the more some of your experiences make sense though. In general, no sponsor would accept you saying that you had already worked the steps...it's quite common actually for people to say "Well I've kind of already done steps 3 and 4" etc. There is more to the process, a sponsor would be short changing you if they let you get away with that.
One of the biggest stopping points in AA I think is fear and mistrust...asking a sponsor for help ( unconditionally) to understand and work the steps is in my opinion absolutely essential to working the steps. Some folks don't get past this because they can't find the right person, some folks can't swallow their pride enough to ask for help.
In my experience that is the biggest barrier to people experiencing the 'real AA' and then all the know is the surface one you see and hear about in meetings.
P
And where do you find the real AA if not through the people you find at meetings? I was always told that working through the literature with a sponsor was the heart of the program. Isn't the whole point of meetings making these kinds of connections? If that is superficial, where else do you go to find help?
I am grateful that you take the time to answer me. While I am no longer in the program, it gave me a vision of sobriety and it is great to finally be able to get some answers about the program on SR from people who know what they are talking about.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by miamifella
I may be confused, but didn't you say that you did the first three steps without a sponsor? Your experience here sounds similar to mine--that a sponsor does not just take your word, but expects you to demonstrate that you have done the step. (To go back on topic, this demonstration usually takes the form of following direction about behavior in the workplace and/or home.)
And where do you find the real AA if not through the people you find at meetings? I was always told that working through the literature with a sponsor was the heart of the program. Isn't the whole point of meetings making these kinds of connections? If that is superficial, where else do you go to find help?
And where do you find the real AA if not through the people you find at meetings? I was always told that working through the literature with a sponsor was the heart of the program. Isn't the whole point of meetings making these kinds of connections? If that is superficial, where else do you go to find help?
I did steps 1-3 'on my own'I guess and the outcome was willingness ask for help to move forward with the rest of the program. There often is no work to be done for 1-3.
Nobody wanted to tell me how to run my home, to prove willingness or for any other reason. I would have run a mile if they did.
We took action together for steps 4-12...reading through the big book (specifically), talking about the book, talking about how I could do the very specific things outlined in the book with him sharing his own experience to guide me...steps 4,5 and 9 are the major ones where folks often try to suggest they have 'sorta already done those steps'. As a sponsor I would insist that the slow down and do them the AA way, as they would kinda be missing out otherwise
The 'Real AA' is like a way of living...a code, a set of principles, a different way of viewing the world. It's something that comes after your entire perspective has been changed. This change of perspective comes from working through these steps to the best of our ability.
We find the real AA by DOING the program and then learning to LIVE it, with or without a sponsor. People in meetings are folks we meet along the way...some are a great support, some aren't. Some (IMO) are also living the real AA, some aren't. You find the real AA by finding the right person who will take you through the program of AA properly instead of substituting it for their own favourite psychological theories, Cont rolling behaviours, desire to be liked or their own inability to work the program effectively in their own lives.
Sorry if it often sounds like we speak in riddles Miami...it is hard to describe and yep communication online is prone to misunderstanding
P
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by ThatWasTheOldMe
tomsteve,
This bolded part is the only part that gets me. I don't believe God is a "Maker," in the sense of a deity. I believe God is the universe itself.
Can that understanding carry through to the rest of the steps?
This bolded part is the only part that gets me. I don't believe God is a "Maker," in the sense of a deity. I believe God is the universe itself.
Can that understanding carry through to the rest of the steps?
a line for the big book:
When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book.
if ya call your HP George, dude, bro, universe, etc- it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter what a person choses as a HP, but best if that person doesn't chose themselves or another human.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by paulokes
Miami no no no, absolutely no
I did steps 1-3 'on my own'I guess and the outcome was willingness ask for help to move forward with the rest of the program. There often is no work to be done for 1-3.
Nobody wanted to tell me how to run my home, to prove willingness or for any other reason. I would have run a mile if they did.
We took action together for steps 4-12...reading through the big book (specifically), talking about the book, talking about how I could do the very specific things outlined in the book with him sharing his own experience to guide me...steps 4,5 and 9 are the major ones where folks often try to suggest they have 'sorta already done those steps'. As a sponsor I would insist that the slow down and do them the AA way, as they would kinda be missing out otherwise
The 'Real AA' is like a way of living...a code, a set of principles, a different way of viewing the world. It's something that comes after your entire perspective has been changed. This change of perspective comes from working through these steps to the best of our ability.
We find the real AA by DOING the program and then learning to LIVE it, with or without a sponsor. People in meetings are folks we meet along the way...some are a great support, some aren't. Some (IMO) are also living the real AA, some aren't. You find the real AA by finding the right person who will take you through the program of AA properly instead of substituting it for their own favourite psychological theories, Cont rolling behaviours, desire to be liked or their own inability to work the program effectively in their own lives.
Sorry if it often sounds like we speak in riddles Miami...it is hard to describe and yep communication online is prone to misunderstanding
P
I did steps 1-3 'on my own'I guess and the outcome was willingness ask for help to move forward with the rest of the program. There often is no work to be done for 1-3.
Nobody wanted to tell me how to run my home, to prove willingness or for any other reason. I would have run a mile if they did.
We took action together for steps 4-12...reading through the big book (specifically), talking about the book, talking about how I could do the very specific things outlined in the book with him sharing his own experience to guide me...steps 4,5 and 9 are the major ones where folks often try to suggest they have 'sorta already done those steps'. As a sponsor I would insist that the slow down and do them the AA way, as they would kinda be missing out otherwise
The 'Real AA' is like a way of living...a code, a set of principles, a different way of viewing the world. It's something that comes after your entire perspective has been changed. This change of perspective comes from working through these steps to the best of our ability.
We find the real AA by DOING the program and then learning to LIVE it, with or without a sponsor. People in meetings are folks we meet along the way...some are a great support, some aren't. Some (IMO) are also living the real AA, some aren't. You find the real AA by finding the right person who will take you through the program of AA properly instead of substituting it for their own favourite psychological theories, Cont rolling behaviours, desire to be liked or their own inability to work the program effectively in their own lives.
Sorry if it often sounds like we speak in riddles Miami...it is hard to describe and yep communication online is prone to misunderstanding
P
I left the program because I found myself talking to my non-alcoholic, non-addict friends about the difficulties I was having staying clean, talking to them when I had cravings, and generally just getting some sympathetic understanding.
That was so much more useful than editing what I said to people in the program. I used to get roasted after meetings for sharing my weakness and fears instead of my strength and hope. But after leaving the program I realized that I needed to share it all--hope, fear, strength and weakness.
I gave it close to 8 years and never found anyone like what you describe in the program. When I left the program, I was finally able to get clean and sober. The foundation of my recovery was rigorous honesty, connection to something bigger then myself, and helping others. These all seem consistent with the literature of AA, but much more difficult to live inside the program. For me anyway.
It sounds though like you found some sanity within the program. You are indeed fortunate.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: CA
Posts: 1,060
Originally Posted by miamifella
That was so much more useful than editing what I said to people in the program. I used to get roasted after meetings for sharing my weakness and fears instead of my strength and hope. But after leaving the program I realized that I needed to share it all--hope, fear, strength and weakness.
Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience with AA. I would say that your experience is very uncommon. I sent my sponsor and my grand sponsor a SS of your post asking if they have ever seen that around the rooms. They said they hadn't. They have 76 years of sobriety among them.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by miamifella
I was finally able to get clean and sober. The foundation of my recovery was rigorous honesty, connection to something bigger then myself, and helping others. These all seem consistent with the literature of AA
but much more difficult to live inside the program
For me anyway.
I have a friend who similarly only managed to get sober when he stopped coming to meetings. He never worked the program. I think he had a very strong reaction to things he perceived other people to be saying and doing. I know this happens. The funny thing is we both have a very similar outlook on lifeand sobriety in every other respect
Anyhoo...I would hate for anyone to read your posts Miami and think you were saying AA is full of very controlling people and anyone would be lucky to find good sponsors....because that isn't the case and I'm sure that's not what you're saying.
One of the criteria I often hear for picking a sponsor is find one who doesn't tell you anything they can't back up with the Big Book. There's a very specific line in there about not becoming involved in the practical affairs of people we help.
Maybe some professional people look out for sponsors who have similar professional jobs....because they know the other person will be understanding if they need to complain about work. I understand why people would feel that way but actually maybe it's a hindrance.
Personally I spoke to other friends about day to day life stuff where I just needed encouragement and support. My sponsor was always 'supportive' but we often talked about how I was dealing with/reacting to life problems....rather than how difficult they were (sympathy) or what exactly I should do about them on a practical level (advice).
Sympathy and advice should be kept to a minimum in a sponsorship relationship IMO...at least at first. One way or another they can lead to manipulation and control by one person or the other. As my old mate Billy used to say best to stick with "Just the facts, mam"
P
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by miamifella
These all seem consistent with the literature of AA, but much more difficult to live inside the program. For me anyway..
the absolute,number 1 reason why paul, myself, and many others are so blessed with the fellowship and why you have struggled with it for years- something you have shown in many,many posts over many many threads, a common denominator with your complaints about the fellowship - boils down to something very simple-
lookin at what you can get out of the fellowship and not what you can put into it.
selfish, self-centeredness- that,we think, is the root of our problems.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
tomsteve--
I was never a sponsor. I did not get far enough in the steps to even consider that.
I felt that criticizing shares after a meeting was wrong. So I stood up for other members when they were ganged up on.
What else can I have done? I never made it through the steps and could not get six months together while I was in the program. This limited what the groups allowed me. I followed the guidelines and the direction of my sponsors in the program in regard to service and interaction with members.
This is not snark, but a real question. When you say I could have put more in, what do you mean? Is there any action you feel I should have taken but did not?
I ask because I am getting the sense that I may have been misdirected while I was in the program.
I was never a sponsor. I did not get far enough in the steps to even consider that.
I felt that criticizing shares after a meeting was wrong. So I stood up for other members when they were ganged up on.
What else can I have done? I never made it through the steps and could not get six months together while I was in the program. This limited what the groups allowed me. I followed the guidelines and the direction of my sponsors in the program in regard to service and interaction with members.
This is not snark, but a real question. When you say I could have put more in, what do you mean? Is there any action you feel I should have taken but did not?
I ask because I am getting the sense that I may have been misdirected while I was in the program.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Originally Posted by paulokes
Yes they are!
No they're not!
But of course I absolutely respect your personal experience and the things you perceived to be difficult
I have a friend who similarly only managed to get sober when he stopped coming to meetings. He never worked the program. I think he had a very strong reaction to things he perceived other people to be saying and doing. I know this happens. The funny thing is we both have a very similar outlook on lifeand sobriety in every other respect
Anyhoo...I would hate for anyone to read your posts Miami and think you were saying AA is full of very controlling people and anyone would be lucky to find good sponsors....because that isn't the case and I'm sure that's not what you're saying.
One of the criteria I often hear for picking a sponsor is find one who doesn't tell you anything they can't back up with the Big Book. There's a very specific line in there about not becoming involved in the practical affairs of people we help.
Maybe some professional people look out for sponsors who have similar professional jobs....because they know the other person will be understanding if they need to complain about work. I understand why people would feel that way but actually maybe it's a hindrance.
Personally I spoke to other friends about day to day life stuff where I just needed encouragement and support. My sponsor was always 'supportive' but we often talked about how I was dealing with/reacting to life problems....rather than how difficult they were (sympathy) or what exactly I should do about them on a practical level (advice).
Sympathy and advice should be kept to a minimum in a sponsorship relationship IMO...at least at first. One way or another they can lead to manipulation and control by one person or the other. As my old mate Billy used to say best to stick with "Just the facts, mam"
P
No they're not!
But of course I absolutely respect your personal experience and the things you perceived to be difficult
I have a friend who similarly only managed to get sober when he stopped coming to meetings. He never worked the program. I think he had a very strong reaction to things he perceived other people to be saying and doing. I know this happens. The funny thing is we both have a very similar outlook on lifeand sobriety in every other respect
Anyhoo...I would hate for anyone to read your posts Miami and think you were saying AA is full of very controlling people and anyone would be lucky to find good sponsors....because that isn't the case and I'm sure that's not what you're saying.
One of the criteria I often hear for picking a sponsor is find one who doesn't tell you anything they can't back up with the Big Book. There's a very specific line in there about not becoming involved in the practical affairs of people we help.
Maybe some professional people look out for sponsors who have similar professional jobs....because they know the other person will be understanding if they need to complain about work. I understand why people would feel that way but actually maybe it's a hindrance.
Personally I spoke to other friends about day to day life stuff where I just needed encouragement and support. My sponsor was always 'supportive' but we often talked about how I was dealing with/reacting to life problems....rather than how difficult they were (sympathy) or what exactly I should do about them on a practical level (advice).
Sympathy and advice should be kept to a minimum in a sponsorship relationship IMO...at least at first. One way or another they can lead to manipulation and control by one person or the other. As my old mate Billy used to say best to stick with "Just the facts, mam"
P
I did get a lot of advice on what to do in my life (always backed up by a good quote from the BB). I thought that was how sponsors take you through the steps.
I agree that too much handholding sympathy is a bad idea. But I think that when someone has the urge to drink or use, help has to be offered. I think advice on this matter, which is what brought us all together in the first place, should be shared. This seems to be appropriate sympathy. Stern talk to someone having cravings is just ineffective. How many stories do we hear in the rooms about people going out after such interactions. Yet, sponsors still do it.
Thank you again. It is great to be able to ask questions about the program. I feel like I am finally getting the information I could not get when I was in the program.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 64
It's a mixed bag in NYC. I've been to meetings in midtown and saw several very prominent and active TV stars. It kind of blew me away and I had to remind myself to not stare. But NYC itself is a very mixed area and during the day, midtown will get a very large cross section of people.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by CactusJill
I am asking this seriously - no intention to categorize people or offend.
I have been in and out of AA meetings since 2004, and one thing I have had difficulty with is the fact that in nearly every meeting, the people there tend to have hit a very, very low bottom and I never meet anyone in my line of work or with my level of education. There is nothing wrong with that and I definitely don't have a superiority complex (my long term bf is a server in a restaurant).
But I am curious. Where do all the nerds like me go? I am a professor, and I have never, ever met anyone that was highly educated, or business owners, or anything like that in any meeting I have been to. And I have been to many, many meetings in 2 different states.
It may be possible that there are professional, educated people at meetings who just don't talk about it, but in my experience most people in AA are completely open about their jobs and almost everything else.
I like SR because I meet a much greater variety of people here than I do in f2f meetings. So please don't take my question personally. I know many people here are very educated or are very professionally successful. I just don't see that in f2f meetings.
Any ideas?
I have been in and out of AA meetings since 2004, and one thing I have had difficulty with is the fact that in nearly every meeting, the people there tend to have hit a very, very low bottom and I never meet anyone in my line of work or with my level of education. There is nothing wrong with that and I definitely don't have a superiority complex (my long term bf is a server in a restaurant).
But I am curious. Where do all the nerds like me go? I am a professor, and I have never, ever met anyone that was highly educated, or business owners, or anything like that in any meeting I have been to. And I have been to many, many meetings in 2 different states.
It may be possible that there are professional, educated people at meetings who just don't talk about it, but in my experience most people in AA are completely open about their jobs and almost everything else.
I like SR because I meet a much greater variety of people here than I do in f2f meetings. So please don't take my question personally. I know many people here are very educated or are very professionally successful. I just don't see that in f2f meetings.
Any ideas?
I'm currently finishing up a business degree, and my drinking has set me back more than once during my accedemic journey. While, I have accepted that I'm an alcoholic and that my drinking has become problematic, I'm not in the same universe as a drunk/day drinker.
I couldn't imagine that type of an alcoholic being able to work in a professional field for very long, despite the fact that they certainly do exist.
I think people like myself are more likely to talk to their doctor, friends and family before they just pull the plug on their drinking cold turkey without meetings. From what I'm hearing the type of people at these meetings are the type of alcoholics that get blacked out drunk, get DUI's, or have little to no control over their drinking. It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
No disrespect to anyone that didn't go to college, and yes, this is a huge sweeping generalizion.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Originally Posted by time4change79
I'm new to all of this, but I would assume the chances of someone with a serious drinking problem working in a professional environment is probably not as common.
I'm currently finishing up a business degree, and my drinking has set me back more than once during my accedemic journey. While, I have accepted that I'm an alcoholic and that my drinking has become problematic, I'm not in the same universe as a drunk/day drinker.
I couldn't imagine that type of an alcoholic being able to work in a professional field for very long, despite the fact that they certainly do exist.
I think people like myself are more likely to talk to their doctor, friends and family before they just pull the plug on their drinking cold turkey without meetings. From what I'm hearing the type of people at these meetings are the type of alcoholics that get blacked out drunk, get DUI's, or have little to no control over their drinking. It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
No disrespect to anyone that didn't go to college, and yes, this is a huge sweeping generalizion.
I'm currently finishing up a business degree, and my drinking has set me back more than once during my accedemic journey. While, I have accepted that I'm an alcoholic and that my drinking has become problematic, I'm not in the same universe as a drunk/day drinker.
I couldn't imagine that type of an alcoholic being able to work in a professional field for very long, despite the fact that they certainly do exist.
I think people like myself are more likely to talk to their doctor, friends and family before they just pull the plug on their drinking cold turkey without meetings. From what I'm hearing the type of people at these meetings are the type of alcoholics that get blacked out drunk, get DUI's, or have little to no control over their drinking. It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
No disrespect to anyone that didn't go to college, and yes, this is a huge sweeping generalizion.
The AA meetings I've been to have a very high percentage of professional people and most are very intelligent and well educated.
Why not go and find out rather than make assumptions?
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by time4change79
I'm new to all of this, but I would assume the chances of someone with a serious drinking problem working in a professional environment is probably not as common.
I'm currently finishing up a business degree, and my drinking has set me back more than once during my accedemic journey. While, I have accepted that I'm an alcoholic and that my drinking has become problematic, I'm not in the same universe as a drunk/day drinker.
I couldn't imagine that type of an alcoholic being able to work in a professional field for very long, despite the fact that they certainly do exist.
I think people like myself are more likely to talk to their doctor, friends and family before they just pull the plug on their drinking cold turkey without meetings. From what I'm hearing the type of people at these meetings are the type of alcoholics that get blacked out drunk, get DUI's, or have little to no control over their drinking. It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
No disrespect to anyone that didn't go to college, and yes, this is a huge sweeping generalizion.
I'm currently finishing up a business degree, and my drinking has set me back more than once during my accedemic journey. While, I have accepted that I'm an alcoholic and that my drinking has become problematic, I'm not in the same universe as a drunk/day drinker.
I couldn't imagine that type of an alcoholic being able to work in a professional field for very long, despite the fact that they certainly do exist.
I think people like myself are more likely to talk to their doctor, friends and family before they just pull the plug on their drinking cold turkey without meetings. From what I'm hearing the type of people at these meetings are the type of alcoholics that get blacked out drunk, get DUI's, or have little to no control over their drinking. It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
No disrespect to anyone that didn't go to college, and yes, this is a huge sweeping generalizion.
Stick around long enough and you see every type of person walk through the doors. Stop looking at the externals and listen to those who have what you want and you may come to learn it doesn't matter.
-allan
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by time4change79
It would be pretty hard to be a professional with that type of a drinking problem.
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