Where do all the professional people go?
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Originally Posted by Gottalife 
Yet in my AA work with alcoholics, I stick to the program of recovery only. I would never presume to direct anyone in what they should do career wise, or relationship wise, or anything else other that the 12 steps, and the AA 24 hour plan, which suggests we all turn to our higher power for guidance on such matters. I might suggest trained professionals to advise on such issues.
AA has never been a direct help to my career. That is not it's purpose. AA got me sober and showed me how to live successfully in this world. My career advancement was due to my new found ability to get on in life because I was sober, not because I was able to get career guidance in AA.
AA has never been a direct help to my career. That is not it's purpose. AA got me sober and showed me how to live successfully in this world. My career advancement was due to my new found ability to get on in life because I was sober, not because I was able to get career guidance in AA.
Too often the program interprets "willingness" as compliance with what sponsors advise on job, money, family, etc. Personally, I think it can be destructive for untrained people to direct others how to manage money, career, family, etc., so while there is a lot of great things about the program, I cannot ever go back to it again.
But I still find great wisdom in the literature and the way most people on SR interpret 12-step recovery. It is just the real-world application that is problematic.
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Originally Posted by miamifella
I think your attitude is great.
Too often the program interprets "willingness" as compliance with what sponsors advise on job, money, family, etc. Personally, I think it can be destructive for untrained people to direct others how to manage money, career, family, etc., so while there is a lot of great things about the program, I cannot ever go back to it again.
Too often the program interprets "willingness" as compliance with what sponsors advise on job, money, family, etc. Personally, I think it can be destructive for untrained people to direct others how to manage money, career, family, etc., so while there is a lot of great things about the program, I cannot ever go back to it again.
The 12 Step Programme of AA absolutely does not promote sponsors controlling the practical elements of their sponsees lives, or sponsees asking their sponsors to do so, or accepting that.
There are some (very poorly IMO) individuals in AA that try to manipulate or control others and dress it up as AA. There are some equally poorly people who want to delegate responsibility for their lives to someone else. That powerlessness and dependence you speak of is not what AA literature intends...it's just a common misconception.
Both these type of people probably need to go to Al Anon or Coda - they are double winners!
I know of your experience with AA and respect you, not trying to convince you of anything. But again what people misconstrue is the AA fellowship is not a 'Program'. Instead there is a 12 Step Recovery Program available in AA which some do not need to or have the courage to fully take on board.
Thanks for your thoughtful comments, as ever
P
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paulokes--
I believe what you say. The problem, which remains to be solved, is that we are taught the program by the fellowship. The BB does not explain in any practical way how to do any step before Step 4. It says what they are, but how to do them is left to sponsors to explain.
And anyone coming into recovery cannot distinguish what they hear in the rooms from what the program is. And even if they could, what difference would it make? They cannot do the program by themselves, can they? They are stuck with the people available to them as guides.
I am more sympathetic to your interpretation of the program, but many I know from the rooms would say you are advocating an easier softer way, that the program demands change in every aspect of life, and that what you describe is abstinence rather than recovery.
And in real life, the people like them edge out people like you from the program. I have seen this happen over and over again. I myself got edged out.
I wish I had a solution.
I believe what you say. The problem, which remains to be solved, is that we are taught the program by the fellowship. The BB does not explain in any practical way how to do any step before Step 4. It says what they are, but how to do them is left to sponsors to explain.
And anyone coming into recovery cannot distinguish what they hear in the rooms from what the program is. And even if they could, what difference would it make? They cannot do the program by themselves, can they? They are stuck with the people available to them as guides.
I am more sympathetic to your interpretation of the program, but many I know from the rooms would say you are advocating an easier softer way, that the program demands change in every aspect of life, and that what you describe is abstinence rather than recovery.
And in real life, the people like them edge out people like you from the program. I have seen this happen over and over again. I myself got edged out.
I wish I had a solution.
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Hey Miami I totally understand.
The answer, for me, is I did not learn the program within the fellowship. I learnt it in the "meeting after the meeting"...I found the right person (at a meeting) and asked him to show me the ropes. We went to meetings together, hung out in his kitchen together, and talked and talked and talked. He brought the Big Book to life for me by talking about his own experience of it.
This is how it should be done. The problem is some folks never get past going to meetings. Also there is no way of knowing you are asking the right person...or at least it's very hard to know who you need to speak to as someone new to meetings.
P
The answer, for me, is I did not learn the program within the fellowship. I learnt it in the "meeting after the meeting"...I found the right person (at a meeting) and asked him to show me the ropes. We went to meetings together, hung out in his kitchen together, and talked and talked and talked. He brought the Big Book to life for me by talking about his own experience of it.
This is how it should be done. The problem is some folks never get past going to meetings. Also there is no way of knowing you are asking the right person...or at least it's very hard to know who you need to speak to as someone new to meetings.
P
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Paulokes--
That is where I learned this. Here people are very strict about no-crosstalk, so all the discussion about the steps is outside of the meetings.
All the stuff I discussed is really from outside of meetings. I never really made it into the inner circle of any group because I did not take many suggestions. (If I had taken suggestions, I would probably friendless, homeless, careerless and without any savings!) And since I would not quit my job, move, buy a different car etc., I never got too far in the steps.
If you are not willing to follow a sponsor's direction and move ahead with the steps, it is pretty hard to get into a groups social scene.
I tried for 8 years. I don't know why.
That is where I learned this. Here people are very strict about no-crosstalk, so all the discussion about the steps is outside of the meetings.
All the stuff I discussed is really from outside of meetings. I never really made it into the inner circle of any group because I did not take many suggestions. (If I had taken suggestions, I would probably friendless, homeless, careerless and without any savings!) And since I would not quit my job, move, buy a different car etc., I never got too far in the steps.
If you are not willing to follow a sponsor's direction and move ahead with the steps, it is pretty hard to get into a groups social scene.
I tried for 8 years. I don't know why.
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Miami I know this getting really OT so maybe for another thread...but the secret is Sponsorship is only about working the steps. Any sponsor making other suggestions is a bad sign for me.
And anyone not willing to move forward with the steps...Doesn't need a sponsor. I personally don't think of AA as a social gromp or support network. Although the people I have met offer me tremendous support.
P
And anyone not willing to move forward with the steps...Doesn't need a sponsor. I personally don't think of AA as a social gromp or support network. Although the people I have met offer me tremendous support.
P
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
Thankyou, Zenchaser, it matters hugely to me that you understand. I've considered embarking upon some more training for the jobs I enjoyed, whilst learning the 'corporate career ladder'. I'm glad to leave that so called career ladder behind me. It was never a good fit. I'm more of a people person, not a pounds and dollars person.
i was about 3 years into the construction career and we had a family reunion. my uncle was there, who had retired from a 35 year career with a bank- the same bank all those year. he asked me what i was up to and told him i got into construction. i was rather shocked when he said,'well, that carrer wont mount to much."
shocked he said that, but it didnt bother me because i was likin what i was doin. i loved being outside workin.
shortly after he started talkin to my sister about how glad he was to be out of the bank and how miserable it was for years.
and all i could do is smile.
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Originally Posted by miamifella
paulokes--
I believe what you say. The problem, which remains to be solved, is that we are taught the program by the fellowship. The BB does not explain in any practical way how to do any step before Step 4. It says what they are, but how to do them is left to sponsors to explain.
I believe what you say. The problem, which remains to be solved, is that we are taught the program by the fellowship. The BB does not explain in any practical way how to do any step before Step 4. It says what they are, but how to do them is left to sponsors to explain.
step 1-
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
step 2-We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built
step 3-Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?
ill skip ahead a bit-
We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
theres a lot in between all that explains how in my big book, but its pretty simple
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Originally Posted by miamifella
I think the reason this thread keeps coming up is that this issue matters, but is so rarely discussed.
I have rarely met professionals at meetings. So my sponsors were a retail clerk, a construction worker, and office workers.
They were intelligent and caring people. But I found it hard to follow their direction on my career because they just did not understand how things go in my line of work. They became frustrated with me and I became frustrated with them.
I think I would have done better in the program if I had been able to get a sponsor whose experience was more like mine. I would certainly been able to trust his direction on career stuff more.
I have rarely met professionals at meetings. So my sponsors were a retail clerk, a construction worker, and office workers.
They were intelligent and caring people. But I found it hard to follow their direction on my career because they just did not understand how things go in my line of work. They became frustrated with me and I became frustrated with them.
I think I would have done better in the program if I had been able to get a sponsor whose experience was more like mine. I would certainly been able to trust his direction on career stuff more.
I find it hard to believe that in Miami you haven't met many professionals. members that have recovered and have been restored to sanity don't go to meetings and tell everyone their profession-they are there to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety and not talk about their profession.
little Podunk town I got sober in, I sat at a meeting with a pharmacist for some time without knowing he was a pharmacist,sat with a surgeon without knowing she was a surgeon, sat with an attorney without knowing he was an attorney, sat with a sheriff without knowing he was a sheriff, sat with an RN without knowing she was an RN......
why didn't I know they had those professions? because they were there to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety. they preferred to look across at other alcoholics no matter how far down the scale they went. the only way I learned of their profession was it coming up in conversation before or after a meeting at some time.
and something that was awesome?
they didn't give a crap if I was a nail banger. they were willing to help me when I needed some help and I had even been thanked for something I shared.
i have absolutely no clue where in any AA literature it says a sponsor should be there for career advise. a sponsor doesn't have to know a dam thing about a persons career. that is not one of our duties as sponsors.
however, beings how career advise is an outside issue, advise can be found outside of AA.
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Originally Posted by paulokes
Miami I know this getting really OT so maybe for another thread...but the secret is Sponsorship is only about working the steps. Any sponsor making other suggestions is a bad sign for me.
And anyone not willing to move forward with the steps...Doesn't need a sponsor. I personally don't think of AA as a social gromp or support network. Although the people I have met offer me tremendous support.
P
And anyone not willing to move forward with the steps...Doesn't need a sponsor. I personally don't think of AA as a social gromp or support network. Although the people I have met offer me tremendous support.
P
I know you disagree with what my sponsors asked of me (and I was not happy with their suggestions either), but they all would have insisted that their suggestions were only about the steps. And honestly, how else would a sponsee demonstrate that they accept powerlessness, are willing, and are turning their lives over?
The problem is that so many of their suggestions for proving that I was powerless, willing, etc. that were fine for their workplace and home would have been disastrous for mine--and I could not come up with acceptable alternatives. So I left since it felt as if my work made it hard to do the steps.
Step 4 is clear about what you have to do. But what you have to do to be sure you have done steps 1, 2, and 3 is up to the individual sponsor. I am not sure what you would ask a sponsee to do, but I do think that you would also find that your suggestions would not work for sponsees in different careers or life circumstances.
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" I thought you were talking about group members seeing people away from meetings." That is pretty much what we mean by the meeting after the meeting. A kind of informal gathering, maybe for coffee somewhere else, or maybe just staying back to chat and discuss whatever topic/comments might have aroused interest during the meeting. A chance to get to know people, maybe find a sponsor, and definitely a chance to ask questions or offer help. It is my favorite part of the meeting.
This is not the same as working with a sponsor, it is much more general in nature.
My steps one and two were done before I came to AA. I started work on step one when I picked up my first ever drink. By the time I got to AA, if I could summarise Tomsteve, all I had to do was compare my experience with that described in chapter three. Was it the same? Did I do that? Yup, there is step one.
Step two was really a combination of willingness, and a choice in recovery method. Was I convinced that the spiritual path offered by AA was the right one for me. Weeell, I was willing to be convinced, so there is step two. If I wasn't willing, I would do better to look for some other program.
Step three, look at my experience again and see how it compares to the book. A new manager was needed in my case, a logical progression from step two. It really was all about my experience. Did it fit or not. Either answer is acceptable, as long as it is the truth.
This is not the same as working with a sponsor, it is much more general in nature.
My steps one and two were done before I came to AA. I started work on step one when I picked up my first ever drink. By the time I got to AA, if I could summarise Tomsteve, all I had to do was compare my experience with that described in chapter three. Was it the same? Did I do that? Yup, there is step one.
Step two was really a combination of willingness, and a choice in recovery method. Was I convinced that the spiritual path offered by AA was the right one for me. Weeell, I was willing to be convinced, so there is step two. If I wasn't willing, I would do better to look for some other program.
Step three, look at my experience again and see how it compares to the book. A new manager was needed in my case, a logical progression from step two. It really was all about my experience. Did it fit or not. Either answer is acceptable, as long as it is the truth.
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Gottalife-
To be fair, I did not stick around for the meetings after the meetings because I really disagreed with what went on. I feel that people respond more to positive feedback and nurturing. So it was really my choice not to get too close to anyone in the program--I had enough self-doubt already!
Did you have a sponsor who just accepted that you said you had done the steps? All of my sponsors said that I needed to take action--it was not enough to just to say I did them, but rather they wanted proof.
...and to bring it back to the subject of the thread, three felt my profession fed my ego and I needed a job where I would "get my ass kicked on a regular basis." The ones who had no problems with my career, still made suggestions that would have alienated my collegues and employers.
My refusal was seen as either a lack of acceptance that I was powerless over my addiction or as a signal that I was not willing.
I feel that other professionals might have understood better why I could not comply and might have been more sympathetic to my desire to not abandon my career
To be fair, I did not stick around for the meetings after the meetings because I really disagreed with what went on. I feel that people respond more to positive feedback and nurturing. So it was really my choice not to get too close to anyone in the program--I had enough self-doubt already!
Did you have a sponsor who just accepted that you said you had done the steps? All of my sponsors said that I needed to take action--it was not enough to just to say I did them, but rather they wanted proof.
...and to bring it back to the subject of the thread, three felt my profession fed my ego and I needed a job where I would "get my ass kicked on a regular basis." The ones who had no problems with my career, still made suggestions that would have alienated my collegues and employers.
My refusal was seen as either a lack of acceptance that I was powerless over my addiction or as a signal that I was not willing.
I feel that other professionals might have understood better why I could not comply and might have been more sympathetic to my desire to not abandon my career
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety.
i have absolutely no clue where in any AA literature it says a sponsor should be there for career advise. a sponsor doesn't have to know a dam thing about a persons career. that is not one of our duties as sponsors.
however, beings how career advise is an outside issue, advise can be found outside of AA.
i have absolutely no clue where in any AA literature it says a sponsor should be there for career advise. a sponsor doesn't have to know a dam thing about a persons career. that is not one of our duties as sponsors.
however, beings how career advise is an outside issue, advise can be found outside of AA.
I did meet professionals in rehab but rarely in meetings. The regular attendees often shared about work situations and my sponsors shared information about work, so I knew they were not professionals. Maybe there were other professionals there at meetings but just kept quiet about their work life to avoid any shaming.
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Miami to be completely honest with you I think you were misunderstanding what other people were saying to you, or perhaps focusing on the words of one or two people and ignoring the rest.
Flat out no...the vast majority of of AAs would not tell you to get a less prestigious job as some kind of 'spiritual lesson'. I came in to AA as a professional person and mostly went to very rough and ready meetings. Wasn't told that once.
I was told to check my ego though many times....by professionals and non-professionals alike.
Anyway it feels to me this is verging off topic again...towards general (unfounded) AA bashing instead of talking about where professional people go?
P
Flat out no...the vast majority of of AAs would not tell you to get a less prestigious job as some kind of 'spiritual lesson'. I came in to AA as a professional person and mostly went to very rough and ready meetings. Wasn't told that once.
I was told to check my ego though many times....by professionals and non-professionals alike.
Anyway it feels to me this is verging off topic again...towards general (unfounded) AA bashing instead of talking about where professional people go?
P
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The 'shaming' thing is interesting Miami. I also entered AA as a professional living in a fancy city centre apartment. I was ashamed to let anyone give me a lift home in case anyone saw my swanky flat 
Haha.
I was paranoid that others somehow looked down on me because I had it better than them. I was wrong all that was entirely in my head.
I would feel bad about sharing about work....that was also my own ego and unneccesary.
Although to honest I notice now the healthier people don't share about work at meetings. Not because they're ashamed but because it is of absolutely no interest to 90% of the people in the room.
If I work in a bank what use is it to everybody else to talk about how stressful it is working in a bank? So we talk in a general way, about our more human experiences so that more people can identify. Instead 9f just thinking about ourselves and using AA as some kind of venue to vent our emotions and have others listen.
Really sorry Miami...the more I hear of this the more I think this is your issue not AAs.
P
Haha.I was paranoid that others somehow looked down on me because I had it better than them. I was wrong all that was entirely in my head.
I would feel bad about sharing about work....that was also my own ego and unneccesary.
Although to honest I notice now the healthier people don't share about work at meetings. Not because they're ashamed but because it is of absolutely no interest to 90% of the people in the room.
If I work in a bank what use is it to everybody else to talk about how stressful it is working in a bank? So we talk in a general way, about our more human experiences so that more people can identify. Instead 9f just thinking about ourselves and using AA as some kind of venue to vent our emotions and have others listen.
Really sorry Miami...the more I hear of this the more I think this is your issue not AAs.
P
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Originally Posted by paulokes
The 'shaming' thing is interesting Miami. I also entered AA as a professional living in a fancy city centre apartment. I was ashamed to let anyone give me a lift home in case anyone saw my swanky flat Haha.
I was paranoid that others somehow looked down on me because I had it better than them. I was wrong all that was entirely in my head.
I would feel bad about sharing about work....that was also my own ego and unneccesary.
Although to honest I notice now the healthier people don't share about work at meetings. Not because they're ashamed but because it is of absolutely no interest to 90% of the people in the room.
If I work in a bank what use is it to everybody else to talk about how stressful it is working in a bank? So we talk in a general way, about our more human experiences so that more people can identify. Instead 9f just thinking about ourselves and using AA as some kind of venue to vent our emotions and have others listen.
Really sorry Miami...the more I hear of this the more I think this is your issue not AAs.
P
Haha.I was paranoid that others somehow looked down on me because I had it better than them. I was wrong all that was entirely in my head.
I would feel bad about sharing about work....that was also my own ego and unneccesary.
Although to honest I notice now the healthier people don't share about work at meetings. Not because they're ashamed but because it is of absolutely no interest to 90% of the people in the room.
If I work in a bank what use is it to everybody else to talk about how stressful it is working in a bank? So we talk in a general way, about our more human experiences so that more people can identify. Instead 9f just thinking about ourselves and using AA as some kind of venue to vent our emotions and have others listen.
Really sorry Miami...the more I hear of this the more I think this is your issue not AAs.
P
But in conversation before and after meetings it does come up. And it was always something sponsors were interested in.
I have to admit, I do not recognize the real-life AA I know from your posts. How do you prove to a sponsor that you have done a step, without sharing about your life with them?
What kind of direction do sponsors and other AA folk give if it is not about your life?
The AA I know is a program about action. I did not like the actions requested of me so I left about nearly 8 years in the program. However the principles are still key for me.
Since I am open about my past I am often approached by people who need help with alcoholism and other addictions. I usually sent them to 12-step recovery, since that seems to work for the widest variety of people. But I do worry about the intrusiveness of people in the program and recommend sharing as little personal information as possible.
This was my strategy in my last few years in the program, but as a result I was often asked why I was not fully engaged in the program anymore. And I think they were right. If no one knew what was going on with me, how could they make any suggestions?
I think this does come back to the subject of the thread, which is that we can best help those we understand. I saw it a lot after meetings when non-parents would approach parents with suggestions that were way off-base, because the non-parent just did not get what having a child was like. And there were two hospital workers who would always pair up because they understood the pressures each others faced. I have heard that there are in some towns meetings specifically for doctors, which makes sense to me as well since I can only imagine what they face.
-----
I am surprised that you never heard the recommendation that one stay in a humble job until you are sober or clean for at least 3 to 5 years. It may be the influence of rehabs down here or it may be an NA thing, but I heard it so much in AA was well--often in connection with the 9th step promise that fear of financial security will leave us. I thought this was as common an AA trope as 90 in 90 and no new sexual relationships in the first year.
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Originally Posted by paulokes
Miami really important point....and a 'people' issue in AA rather than a program one.
The 12 Step Programme of AA absolutely does not promote sponsors controlling the practical elements of their sponsees lives, or sponsees asking their sponsors to do so, or accepting that.
P
The 12 Step Programme of AA absolutely does not promote sponsors controlling the practical elements of their sponsees lives, or sponsees asking their sponsors to do so, or accepting that.
P
It was precisely this which made me leave the program. It happened in every one of the few dozen groups I was part of in few different cities.
I always said that if real-life AA was more like the literature, and if all the restrictions on discourse in the meeting were followed before and after the meeting, it would be a better program.
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
we must have different big books.
step 1-
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
step 2-We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built
step 3-Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?
ill skip ahead a bit-
We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
theres a lot in between all that explains how in my big book, but its pretty simple
step 1-
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.
step 2-We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built
step 3-Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him. Just what do we mean by that, and just what do we do?
ill skip ahead a bit-
We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
theres a lot in between all that explains how in my big book, but its pretty simple
This bolded part is the only part that gets me. I don't believe God is a "Maker," in the sense of a deity. I believe God is the universe itself.
Can that understanding carry through to the rest of the steps?
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Miami...I attend and live in the 'real-life' AA as do tomsteve, Gottalife etc... Of course I understand if the way we describe AA is not the way you experienced it or remember it.
The more you talk about this the more some of your experiences make sense though. In general, no sponsor would accept you saying that you had already worked the steps...it's quite common actually for people to say "Well I've kind of already done steps 3 and 4" etc. There is more to the process, a sponsor would be short changing you if they let you get away with that.
One of the biggest stopping points in AA I think is fear and mistrust...asking a sponsor for help ( unconditionally) to understand and work the steps is in my opinion absolutely essential to working the steps. Some folks don't get past this because they can't find the right person, some folks can't swallow their pride enough to ask for help.
In my experience that is the biggest barrier to people experiencing the 'real AA' and then all the know is the surface one you see and hear about in meetings.
P
Of course I understand if the way we describe AA is not the way you experienced it or remember it.The more you talk about this the more some of your experiences make sense though. In general, no sponsor would accept you saying that you had already worked the steps...it's quite common actually for people to say "Well I've kind of already done steps 3 and 4" etc. There is more to the process, a sponsor would be short changing you if they let you get away with that.
One of the biggest stopping points in AA I think is fear and mistrust...asking a sponsor for help ( unconditionally) to understand and work the steps is in my opinion absolutely essential to working the steps. Some folks don't get past this because they can't find the right person, some folks can't swallow their pride enough to ask for help.
In my experience that is the biggest barrier to people experiencing the 'real AA' and then all the know is the surface one you see and hear about in meetings.
P
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