Physical fight with aa friend and suicide
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Trenches, Texas
Posts: 778
March of 2009 I holed up in a sleezey motel under the assumption that no one wanted much of anything to do with me; sat in that bitter morass of self pity and made plans to checkout permanently. I washed down a prescription of sleeping pills with a bottle of grain alcohol, drove my truck to my ex-girlfriends house parked in her front yard, sent gloomy text messages ("shades of death are all I see, fragments of what used to be") to everyone in my phone...because I'd show all them right? Low and behold the emergency medical station was right around the corner, they got to me in time. I couldn't even pull off suicide. How lame is that? What a failure right?
I floundered the streets for a few more months and was finally driven back to AA. That time was different though, I was beaten to a state of reasonableness, yanno, to try some suggestions.
I went from a homeless, jobless, carless, not able to know where my son resided/went to daycare etc...to this:
Clean and sober since 7/25/2009
Full time job.
Car; current license, insurance, and registration!
Just got back from pizza, arcade, and ice cream with my son. I know his teacher, school, where he lives, attend his baseball games...and am current with child support!
Attending college; working on a bachelors in computer science.
Family around me that enjoys my company.
I've been in that hole, it's dark, but I know the way out. Feel free to message me anytime.
I floundered the streets for a few more months and was finally driven back to AA. That time was different though, I was beaten to a state of reasonableness, yanno, to try some suggestions.
I went from a homeless, jobless, carless, not able to know where my son resided/went to daycare etc...to this:
Clean and sober since 7/25/2009
Full time job.
Car; current license, insurance, and registration!
Just got back from pizza, arcade, and ice cream with my son. I know his teacher, school, where he lives, attend his baseball games...and am current with child support!
Attending college; working on a bachelors in computer science.
Family around me that enjoys my company.
I've been in that hole, it's dark, but I know the way out. Feel free to message me anytime.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
To be in this much pain at 3 years sober is worrying to say the least. It can indicate that something need attention through the steps, or it might indicate that medical help is required.
My friend, do you by any chance have a sponsor? And is he by any chance saying that you are not ready to take step 4 onwards? It might seem a silly question but I have a good reason for asking as you will see if you answer in the affirmative. If not applicable, just disregard.
My friend, do you by any chance have a sponsor? And is he by any chance saying that you are not ready to take step 4 onwards? It might seem a silly question but I have a good reason for asking as you will see if you answer in the affirmative. If not applicable, just disregard.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fenway Park
Posts: 119
Marcusk87
This will probably be my most revealing, honest, and personal post I've ever made on this site. My relationship with the idea of suicide is something I have never, ever, told anyone. But if it helps, so be it.
Roll back to 2008, had been thinking about death constantly, whether it be suicide, or getting killed in a car accident. All I could think about was death, I was very, very depressed and had lost all will to live. Imagine the basic medical description of depression and multiply every symptom by 100, add in raging alcoholism, and that's how I felt. Utterly hopeless.
Absolutely no hope for the future, kept telling myself that nothing was ever going to change, and even if I was lucky enough to become well one day, that I would just fall back and feel the same way again. So why bother at all?
My last experience, consideration of and "almost" suicide. November 2008:
At the time, I owned 3 guns, legally. On a series of different occasions, I made the decision, this was it. Grabbed a pistol, got in my car, and drove for 30 minutes, and off into the state park. Got out of my car, since it was my only asset and didn't want to ruin it, maybe it would help pay for my funeral bill?? ( sick thinking )
I would walk off into the woods, gun in one hand, cell phone in the other, ready to call the police. To tell them exactly where I was, and I had found a body, it was going to mine of course. Didn't want some poor person off on a morning jog to find me and be traumatized for the rest of their life.
Number for the police dialed in, and ready to just hit send. Gun loaded, and ready to fire.
I think this was the first time I had ever been honest with myself in my entire life, when I heard a little voice in my head saying," you know you don't want to do this", and every last bit of my mind, body, and soul screaming "NO!", and accepting it as the genuine truth. Just go drive home, and hopefully you will feel better tomorrow.
That little voice symbolized hope, even the slightest thought of doubt was a shrivel of hope. And I accepted that things will get better.
I had experienced my unusual fascination with death first hand. I looked it in the eye, and lets just say shortly there after I sold my guns, and didn't renew my permit....
I was one second, and one bad decision away from an absolute certainty..
My life would be over. Better hope heaven does exist, and God gives me a mulligan and lets me in!
On this particular night, this was the third time I had gone out there, with this mentality. I honestly can't tell you how I survived the first two, and why I just went home instead... I don't even know myself..
What I can tell you, is when I put my cell phone back in my pocket, unloaded my gun, and started walking back to my car, I had a profound new appreciation for life. I realized that I was lucky to have the chance to even make the decision to live or die. There were no flashing lights, and corny music, my life didn't flash before my eyes.. I just felt it, and knew what it was, and what it meant. Something I had never felt before, ever, in any sense. For the first time in my life I didn't feel confused, I knew that I was not ready to die. Was willing to live my life, face the good days and the bad, no matter what.
Where it came from, who knows, honestly don't care, just glad I found it, and sometimes feel it as a gift.
Moral of the story, things do get better. Life will improve, you just have to weather the storm. I know it sounds like I am probably over simplifying it, but its true.
Today, my life isn't perfect, I still have my ups and downs with alcohol and depression. But what I am certain of is that I know I will never find myself out in those woods again. That desire left me that night, and I know it will never come back.
The way I see it, if you can survive the worst of times. That means every day after, is great, not perfect, but worth living for.
-Save
This will probably be my most revealing, honest, and personal post I've ever made on this site. My relationship with the idea of suicide is something I have never, ever, told anyone. But if it helps, so be it.
Roll back to 2008, had been thinking about death constantly, whether it be suicide, or getting killed in a car accident. All I could think about was death, I was very, very depressed and had lost all will to live. Imagine the basic medical description of depression and multiply every symptom by 100, add in raging alcoholism, and that's how I felt. Utterly hopeless.
Absolutely no hope for the future, kept telling myself that nothing was ever going to change, and even if I was lucky enough to become well one day, that I would just fall back and feel the same way again. So why bother at all?
My last experience, consideration of and "almost" suicide. November 2008:
At the time, I owned 3 guns, legally. On a series of different occasions, I made the decision, this was it. Grabbed a pistol, got in my car, and drove for 30 minutes, and off into the state park. Got out of my car, since it was my only asset and didn't want to ruin it, maybe it would help pay for my funeral bill?? ( sick thinking )
I would walk off into the woods, gun in one hand, cell phone in the other, ready to call the police. To tell them exactly where I was, and I had found a body, it was going to mine of course. Didn't want some poor person off on a morning jog to find me and be traumatized for the rest of their life.
Number for the police dialed in, and ready to just hit send. Gun loaded, and ready to fire.
I think this was the first time I had ever been honest with myself in my entire life, when I heard a little voice in my head saying," you know you don't want to do this", and every last bit of my mind, body, and soul screaming "NO!", and accepting it as the genuine truth. Just go drive home, and hopefully you will feel better tomorrow.
That little voice symbolized hope, even the slightest thought of doubt was a shrivel of hope. And I accepted that things will get better.
I had experienced my unusual fascination with death first hand. I looked it in the eye, and lets just say shortly there after I sold my guns, and didn't renew my permit....
I was one second, and one bad decision away from an absolute certainty..
My life would be over. Better hope heaven does exist, and God gives me a mulligan and lets me in!
On this particular night, this was the third time I had gone out there, with this mentality. I honestly can't tell you how I survived the first two, and why I just went home instead... I don't even know myself..
What I can tell you, is when I put my cell phone back in my pocket, unloaded my gun, and started walking back to my car, I had a profound new appreciation for life. I realized that I was lucky to have the chance to even make the decision to live or die. There were no flashing lights, and corny music, my life didn't flash before my eyes.. I just felt it, and knew what it was, and what it meant. Something I had never felt before, ever, in any sense. For the first time in my life I didn't feel confused, I knew that I was not ready to die. Was willing to live my life, face the good days and the bad, no matter what.
Where it came from, who knows, honestly don't care, just glad I found it, and sometimes feel it as a gift.
Moral of the story, things do get better. Life will improve, you just have to weather the storm. I know it sounds like I am probably over simplifying it, but its true.
Today, my life isn't perfect, I still have my ups and downs with alcohol and depression. But what I am certain of is that I know I will never find myself out in those woods again. That desire left me that night, and I know it will never come back.
The way I see it, if you can survive the worst of times. That means every day after, is great, not perfect, but worth living for.
-Save
MK87
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by Gottalife 
To be in this much pain at 3 years sober is worrying to say the least. It can indicate that something need attention through the steps, or it might indicate that medical help is required.
My friend, do you by any chance have a sponsor? And is he by any chance saying that you are not ready to take step 4 onwards? It might seem a silly question but I have a good reason for asking as you will see if you answer in the affirmative. If not applicable, just disregard.
My friend, do you by any chance have a sponsor? And is he by any chance saying that you are not ready to take step 4 onwards? It might seem a silly question but I have a good reason for asking as you will see if you answer in the affirmative. If not applicable, just disregard.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Marcusk87
I wish somebody would just pick me up and take care of me. If anybody out there has ever been where Im at they might understand that there's really no better way of explaining it except I wish I was dead. I hate my life. And to be honest I am tired of lying. I'm sorry for being so secluded with my self description but I am just so damn tired and I wish somebody would just pick me up and take me away to a place where things were happy.
Originally Posted by Marcusk87
......because I have no friends and I don't want to be lonely. .....because I have never worked on myself so hard I let this guy tell me what to do.
I always have this "sympathy" which is really my assbackwards way of having somebody before my sobriety.
I always have this "sympathy" which is really my assbackwards way of having somebody before my sobriety.
I'd just sit back and think about how they have NO CLUE, how I'd wish it was JUST the drinking because obviously it was this other stuff. Then there was the guilt/shame tag-team group from hell that was wreaking havoc on what little sanity I still had. They'd suck the life out of whatever brief moments of peace I could scrounge up. Worst of all......nothing showed any signs of getting fixed, I couldn't get anyone to fix "it" for me, I couldn't fix it......and I started to stare down that inevitable road of a perpetually unhappy future existence and.........bam.......dying sure doesn't look all that bad.
One of the things that irritated me the most about recovery and especially about AA was I expected the older members, my sponsor, and any other mentors I had to fix my life up......tell me how to straighten things out and help me with it (which, to me, meant more of "they'll do it all for me" than it was "with me" - but I wasn't really aware of it at the time). Everytime I'd hear "It's a 'we' program" I'd get mad because I couldn't seem to get nearly enough "we's" focused on and fixing MY problems. Quite the rude (but wonderfully enlightening) wakeup when it dawned on me that nobody was going to get me sober and, "they" were all more concerned about their sobriety than mine.
I really and truly didn't want to have to do much of anything for my sobriety, to turn my life around, to change. I wanted it done for me by others or TO me by God. Either way.......I just wanted to be a passenger.
The bad news.......it does NOT usually work that way. The good news......it doesn't work that way - which forces us (assuming we choose to live vs die) to engage in the actions of recovery. Those actions (and I didn't like most of them AS I was doing them) are where the happiness and freedom are. Theyre the gateways and we MUST walk through them to enjoy them. Closing our eyes and hoping to be teleported to the other side would keep us from gaining all the wisdom and experience that ONLY comes from walking through the gate ourselves.
Marcusk - I believe I know PRECISELY how you feel.......and I can tell you for a fact (for me, at least), putting down the drink and plugging IN to the AA recovery process has freed me from the vaaaaaaast majority of that insanity that drove me and dominated large chunks of my childhood and adult life.
As they say, if nothing changes nothing changes. Being backed into such a tight corner has it's advantages. When you're down to one "possible" escape route that doesn't even seem like it'll work (ie treating alcoholISM in AA), willingness to try is born.
And I'll tell you.....almost 5 yrs later......it's a very rare day when those thoughts are given the privilege of much time in my head anymore. I didn't have to change myself (FAR too much for me to do).......I simply WAS CHANGED as the guaranteed and promised result of becoming an active participant in my own recovery.
There are thousands of us who've been there, felt that way, and have come out on the other side of this wonderful experience of recovery who'd bend over backwards to show you and guide you in how to get every single bit of it for yourself as well. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance.
MK87
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 17
hey daytrader, it's funny you replied because I was in a scott trade today trying to open up a broker account. I am on my mobile phone right now so I will type a better response when I get home tonight. I agree with your post, thanks.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by Marcusk87
Yes I have a sponsor, and yes he has told me I am not ready to do step 4. I have approx 4 years without being high/ drunk, but about 2 minutes without wanting explode.
I suspect the reason your sponsor says you are not ready for step 4 is that they have not taken it themselves. In any case the Big Book says " If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps" It does not say when your sponsor thinks so. If you are an alcoholic of my type, your life depends upon taking the steps. Dump that sponsor and find one who will take you through the steps right away. What you are suffering from is untreated alcoholism. The treatment is the steps, how can you not be ready after four years?
So I said I would give you my reason. A year or two ago we had this beautiful young man turn up in our meetings. he was 22, same age as me when i came in, and full of potential. I got to talk to him once or twice and identified very closely, especially about a repetative problem he had, a sense of impending doom. This used to really wreck me, one minute I was ok the next I felt like the roof was going to fall in on me, it was dreadful. I had a great sponsor who took me through the steps and this problem left me after the 5th. The young man had a sponsor who told him he wasn't ready (for the reason I noted above) After two years in AA doing everything that was suggested (the steps obviously were not suggested because he wasn't ready) he wasn't getting any better and couldn't understand why. Then came the day when the demons returned, he was tired, his defenses were down and he took his own life. I regret to this day that I took no action to help him, but I will speak out when I see it happening to someone else.
MK87
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 17
Thank you for replying.... This is usually the part where some people will say that the man committing suicide was due to depression that should have been attended to by "medical professionals". If you have an open mind you will be able to respond to this thoughtfully, because I see that the "AA promises" offer us freedom from fear, a reasonable amount of happiness, etc....Nearly identical to the promises of Anti-depressant drugs. I don't say this to be a pain in the ass, but the two are very close. I don't know, I personally think depression is my fault and If I am "very Sad" of thinking about suicide it can be remedied without medical drugs, but then again I am very afraid of giving up control... It's a very Shutter Island type of thing.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Hey Markus,
glad to hear you are OK. With our young man the medical proffessionals were involved, he came from a well off family who cared very much for him and he had the best medical help available. But he was an alcoholic of my type. When I read the Doctors opinion I see I am a type which they have come to regard as hopeless, the only hope of recovery would be to be permanently locked up, or to have a complete psychic change. The latter is accomplished through the steps and if your are denied the steps... then what?
Suppression of negative emotions either with drugs or by will power doesn't seem that effective either, except perhaps on a temporary basis. Apparently you can't selectively numb feelings. When you knock out fear and anxiety, you also can't experience joy and happiness. So it seems you can end up not feeling much of anything.
Maybe you could take a few steps back and try to recall the point you became willing to go to any lengths to get what we have. Then take the third step, which you can do on your own with a Big Book P63, which amounts to a decision to jump into AA boots and all, then find someone to help you through the 4th as its written in the book. this is not a huge undertaking. It took me one day with my sponsor to help. It was then I began to see what it was about me that was casuing all the trouble.
This will probably be more difficult for you than a newcomer. After all you have stayed sober for 4 years without doing this, many of the problems that drove you to AA will have eased off. But the thing is you are not getting in sobriety that which makes it all worthwhile, serenity.
The only outher suggestion I can offer is if you are not willing, pray for the willingness.
glad to hear you are OK. With our young man the medical proffessionals were involved, he came from a well off family who cared very much for him and he had the best medical help available. But he was an alcoholic of my type. When I read the Doctors opinion I see I am a type which they have come to regard as hopeless, the only hope of recovery would be to be permanently locked up, or to have a complete psychic change. The latter is accomplished through the steps and if your are denied the steps... then what?
Suppression of negative emotions either with drugs or by will power doesn't seem that effective either, except perhaps on a temporary basis. Apparently you can't selectively numb feelings. When you knock out fear and anxiety, you also can't experience joy and happiness. So it seems you can end up not feeling much of anything.
Maybe you could take a few steps back and try to recall the point you became willing to go to any lengths to get what we have. Then take the third step, which you can do on your own with a Big Book P63, which amounts to a decision to jump into AA boots and all, then find someone to help you through the 4th as its written in the book. this is not a huge undertaking. It took me one day with my sponsor to help. It was then I began to see what it was about me that was casuing all the trouble.
This will probably be more difficult for you than a newcomer. After all you have stayed sober for 4 years without doing this, many of the problems that drove you to AA will have eased off. But the thing is you are not getting in sobriety that which makes it all worthwhile, serenity.
The only outher suggestion I can offer is if you are not willing, pray for the willingness.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Suicidal thoughts and 'ideation' should be dealt with by professionals. Yes, many alcoholics suffer from some form of depression, and after working AA's 12-Steps, this depression seems to lift some. This is because this depression was brought on by alcohol being a depressant. Many recovered alcoholics, after working AA's 12-Steps, still need help with their depression, and they get this from professionals.
Even the BB mentions that sometimes there are cases where alcoholism is complicated by other disorders, and a good doctor or psychiatrist might be a good logical step to take.....
In your most recent post, Marcusk87, you wrote, "...I see that the "AA promises" offer us freedom from fear, a reasonable amount of happiness, etc....Nearly identical to the promises of Anti-depressant drugs..."
Actually they're not nearly identical atall; you took a couple of things totally out of context, regarding AA's Promises......: freedom from fear; happiness..... In truth, the AA Promises [located from the bottom of pg 83 through the first paragraph of pg 84 (3rd ed) do NOT promise freedom from fear; nor do they promise happiness (not even a reasonable amount).
What the promises do say is that we will 'know' a 'new' happiness. In other words, our old sense of happiness will be renewed/revamped----- it's not giving us happines; it's only changing our perspective from an old happiness to a new happines (had to have the 'old' to have it changed to the 'new').
Regarding frear, we are not promised that we will no longer have fear. The promise is that our fear of people and our fear of economic insecurity will leave us---also note that does not say economic insecurity will leave us, as some folks seem to think it says; it only says that the fear of economic insecurity will leave us..... But, hey, what the heck.....these are some pretty good promises.....
In closing, I would like to add, as others before me have.....if you're still depressed and/or having suicidal thoughts/ideations, go to a doctor.....for me, AA was for my alcoholism, for all my other medical issues, I went to my doctor............................
(o:
NoelleR
Even the BB mentions that sometimes there are cases where alcoholism is complicated by other disorders, and a good doctor or psychiatrist might be a good logical step to take.....
In your most recent post, Marcusk87, you wrote, "...I see that the "AA promises" offer us freedom from fear, a reasonable amount of happiness, etc....Nearly identical to the promises of Anti-depressant drugs..."
Actually they're not nearly identical atall; you took a couple of things totally out of context, regarding AA's Promises......: freedom from fear; happiness..... In truth, the AA Promises [located from the bottom of pg 83 through the first paragraph of pg 84 (3rd ed) do NOT promise freedom from fear; nor do they promise happiness (not even a reasonable amount).
What the promises do say is that we will 'know' a 'new' happiness. In other words, our old sense of happiness will be renewed/revamped----- it's not giving us happines; it's only changing our perspective from an old happiness to a new happines (had to have the 'old' to have it changed to the 'new').
Regarding frear, we are not promised that we will no longer have fear. The promise is that our fear of people and our fear of economic insecurity will leave us---also note that does not say economic insecurity will leave us, as some folks seem to think it says; it only says that the fear of economic insecurity will leave us..... But, hey, what the heck.....these are some pretty good promises.....
In closing, I would like to add, as others before me have.....if you're still depressed and/or having suicidal thoughts/ideations, go to a doctor.....for me, AA was for my alcoholism, for all my other medical issues, I went to my doctor............................
(o:
NoelleR
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: LA - Lower Alabama
Posts: 5,068
Originally Posted by Marcusk87
Thank you for replying.... This is usually the part where some people will say that the man committing suicide was due to depression that should have been attended to by "medical professionals". If you have an open mind you will be able to respond to this thoughtfully, because I see that the "AA promises" offer us freedom from fear, a reasonable amount of happiness, etc....Nearly identical to the promises of Anti-depressant drugs. I don't say this to be a pain in the ass, but the two are very close. I don't know, I personally think depression is my fault and If I am "very Sad" of thinking about suicide it can be remedied without medical drugs, but then again I am very afraid of giving up control... It's a very Shutter Island type of thing.
Next we launched out on a course of vigorous action, the first step of which is a personal housecleaning, which many of us had never attempted. Though our decision was vital and crucial step, it could have little permanent effect unless at once followed by a strenuous effort to face, and to be rid of, the things in ourselves which had been blocking us. Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions. Therefore, we started upon a personal inventory. This was Step Four.
Having had my say about AA and the steps, there are definitely people who need both AA and medical help. I leave that between you and your Dr.
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