Terminally Unique

While it is true that AVRT is not a design for living beyond an abstinent state, and it may appear to an outside observer that things end with the Big Plan, they actually don't. While in the grip of addiction, the Addictive Voice appears to be you, and it is very difficult to discern the true from the false. In that pitiful state, addictive thinking appears to be sane, rational, and good, the primary objective of life itself.

Once the breakdown of the addictive mentality occurs, it becomes easier to separate the true from the false, and one's own thinking from addictive thinking. Over time, this awareness of the addictive mentality increases, and eventually becomes effortless, but it doesn't stop there. It will actually expand outwardly, and one will start recognizing the addictive mentality in others. Eventually, this too becomes automatic and effortless. I can't read a post on this forum without automatically recognizing the AV embedded in the text, for example, and I have to refrain from the temptation to highlight it.

Additionally, the Addictive Voice can be viewed as an immoral proposition. Addition effectively subverts morality in order to perpetuate itself, and one of the very first things it does it to convince the addicted person that there is nothing wrong, nothing wrong at all, with getting high, so long as nobody gets hurt. Getting high is never to be viewed as simply 'wrong' until after the fact, once people have already been hurt and all the facts are in.

AVRT identifies this as a primary problem, and intentionally restores the moral axis to addiction and recovery. Once you believe that drinking/using is always wrong for you, in spite of having done it for so long, and once believing that it wasn't, you invariably begin to wonder what else you might be doing that is wrong for you. AVRT is a seed idea that grows upon itself, and unexpected changes in one's life beyond simple abstinence usually follow as a result of recovering along these lines.

Tippingpoint

This is good stuff and rings pure and true for me.

Excellent insight TU...thanks for having the courage to say it.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, even after 30 years of abstinence / sobriety I'm looking forward with AVRT to achieving powers of additional awareness and introspection well blended into my psyche as I happily journey ever forward and always sans alcohol.

What's there not to love?!!

RobbyRobot

Question: Do self-confessed alcoholics who have a history of going back out even after acknowledging that things were working again and again need a different basis for evaluating their alcoholism / sobriety then does the self-confessed alcoholic who gets it right the first time?

Answer: Yeah, I think so.

This is at the heart of the discussion I'm hoping to continue in this thread now that we have all relaxed about the threads intent and both Langkah and I continue to enjoy a mutual respect for each others differing experiences.

Let's continue to be adult about this thread. When we post on SR we also agree that our posts can be commented on in a reasonable fashion for a purpose that is for the better good of the members reading the respective threads. I think it is important to look at the above question in more detail then has yet been played out in this thread.

My experience has been I got it right the first time with AA and detox and rehab at age 24 back in summer of 1981. Before going for help I privately tried to quit for a few years and could never get past 30 days on my own. And those 30 days were sheer hell. I could not even leave my room as the days piled up. We're not talking I just decided to stop and then 30 days later I just pickup a drink, okay? Totally psychotic, you know? Alcohol was my medicating solution... I was completely fukked with out my DOC alcohol. No job. No social life. No real friends. Toasted. Check out time. End of story. Drinking myself to death.

I did manage to quit my heavy drugging of LSD, weed, hashish -- and the odd uppers and downers -- around 2 years before my final quitting alcohol. My drinking actually got worse (of course) without the moderations provided by my earlier drugging.

Okay. So, I'm the alcoholic spoke of in the AA BB. And I'm also the drug addict spoke about in NA of which I also had a membership in back in my day. I never stepped in the door of either AA or NA and had another drink or drug experience again.

Most members of AA or NA and rehabs and various existing medical interventions have a history of receiving respective help from the above organizations and yet continue to go back out again and again.

Even those members of SR here that go back out can be included as receiving help again and again and even though the claim was made that the help was working, they somehow found themselves back out.

So, does there exist enough real differences between the experiences to think that different approaches would be advantageous for those having a harder experience in staying away from alcoholic drinking?

desertsong

It seems to me that no matter which path to recovery one chooses, the key is willingness. I can go to AA meetings 10 times a day, but if I'm not willing to do the work outside the rooms, it's not going to make much difference in my life.

Terminally Unique

Robby,

The way I see it, addicted people face two key problems. Firstly, they invariably don't believe that they can recover. Secondly, part of them does not want to recover at all, and wants to put this off for just a little bit longer. This is aggravated by the culture of 'recovery' itself, which, more often than not, effectively tells them that they can't recover.

In recovery groups, it might be "look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't be here in a year." In formal treatment, it might be "look around, only one in 20 of you will make it, who will it be?" In therapy, it might be "you need to work on all of your underlying issues first before you can recover, and this can take years, and most people give up before they do."

This is enough to discourage anyone, but if you take into account that addicted people already do not believe they can recover, and that part of them secretly loves the idea of not recovering, this kind of talk is absolute poison to addicted people. Their knees are effectively knocked out from under them before they even get started.

I always tell people to forget about lousy recovery statistics, and that everyone has a 100% chance of recovering in a brief amount of time, provided they know what they are doing. Usually, if they are new to the 'recovery' scene, they appreciate this kind of hope. Very tellingly, however, if they have been exposed to the recovery scene, they will often get very angry and go on the attack, reciting all manner of statistics and jargon.

I think a relevant question would be this: why would anyone get angry at being told that they can recover, and that it doesn't have to take forever?

Charon

Value? Not so sure. Certainly not for me. Having people tell me that their way is the only way/the true way is unhelpful. Moreover, telling me that I have only to make a choice trivializes and demeans my agony.

For others - not convinced. Seems that the "people who have the answer" are unanswered by people who found different answers.

For myself - being told that others (that have no clue ie. are not OCD) that all I have to do is make a choice or that their "golden path" is the ONE TRUE WAY is not helpful.

You are correct that no one has all the answers. Since so many here do, I think I need to look elsewhere. I will probably lurk and may even post - but with extreme reticence.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, that works too.

We know already why and none of the offered reasons are resonable enough to discount prompt recovery. It is unfortunate that some people talk themselves into picking up that next drink even as they insist they are serious about quitting.

I'm always amazed how many alcoholic drinkers use the excuse of alcoholism to explain why they are yet drunk again. It wasn't an really an excuse, it was entirely a confirmed reality that is not being honestly faced by the drinker ie: alcoholics easily can drink alcohol without any required complicated rhyme or reason or excuse. Alcoholics of every stripe drink for the simplest reason in the world: they can drink so they do drink.

We of course have are own personal issues with our past or current drinking experiences, respectively. Personal issues have everything to do with justifying whatever and nothing to do with quitting for good and always. The quality of that forever quitting experience *of course* has everything to do with us personally yeah, but that the actual quitting is dependant on our personality?? --> NO WAY.

Some people just can't get over themselves long enough to give themselves an honest break. After they are given to understand that quitting drinking works and they find themselves back to drinking, its all delusionally personal after that, has been my own experiences with guys and gals who go back out again and again. I speak from my own experience. I didn't stay away from alcohol either when I began my journey into quitting.

Simplicity is a difficult experience to grasp when one is dumbfounded by asking themselves continously: why me??!!

RobbyRobot

I hear you. Good to know that you'll be still here and about and even posting as you decide thru the issues as presented. Way cool. FWIW, you have my ear and I already know I have yours, or you wouldn't even have posted today, so thanks, i appreciate you participating. Like I said, we all have value when we speak and when we listen to others speak too. Real listening is an awesome experience, yeah?

Forget about the naysayers, you know?

Good talking with you again, Charon. Seriously.

Terminally Unique

That's another issue. Addicted people the world over usually consider themselves helpless victims of circumstance, and their collective mantra seems to be "we're all victims, from womb to tomb." They'll reinforce this pernicious belief in each other by repeating it over and over again. Those who internalize this most often don't break free, and those who reject it usually do break free.

Charon

No! It's quite clear from your post above (reply to TU I think - TU is on my ignore list so I'm not sure) that you are oblivious and don't hear me at all. And again, no you don't have my ear. Along with Terminally Unique you are added to my ignore list.

RobbyRobot

Okay, whatever disagreement you and whoever may have has nothing to do with me and is none of my business either. I do know that earlier today you accepted a friendship offer from me and from there you would see that TU is an SR friend of mine too. Of course, now that I am on your ignore that friendship between you and I became broken.

Not sure what post in this thread did me in with you, and since you have me on ignore I cant find out either.

I'm surprised you posted about all this, Charon. I have not had any direct disagreement with you or otherwise any problem. I do know I reached out to you when you posted on my thread, you know? I don't regret doing so, it looked like you could use a friend and I for sure felt you had got a rough treatment in the past from others about what you were sharing in this thread re: OCD and so i thought you could appreciate some support.

I'm still offering my friendship and support of course No negative experience already existed between you and I, right? Except now you don't like that I thanked TU for something in this thread...

As for me being in agreement with somebody on your ignore list and that is your reason to ignore me too, I can only say I will continue to agree with whoever i wish to be in agreement with or not as the case may be.

I also base my friendships on merit and not anything else, and of course I have the last word on who are or are not my friends. You of course have the same rights too. No problemo.

So, since you have brought this into the thread, I have answered in the thread. I hope you sometime reconsider your choices. Later, Charon.

RobbyRobot

Okay, so this thread has had its day. I'm grateful for the interest it generated and for the informed shares of all the contributors.

I remain convinced that recovered or recovery alcoholics with advanced years -- old timers -- must have a sensitive approach that regulates how much they look into the crystal ball of someone else's recovery, and based on their own experience, they then offer a generalized opinion on the quality of anybody's journey who is putting down that drink. Generalizations are useless and worse.

And I mean this for those quitting for their first time or their thousandth time: old timers have an additional responsibility to be examples of how wonderful and doable sobriety is and can be -- and not how difficult or unlkely sobriety can or will be achieved. There are already plenty of examples of failure -- and not nearly enough examples of success.

Thanks everybody!

ReadyAndAble

And that, at least, should not generate any debate at all!

Thanks for the thread, Robby. And for providing a great example of success.