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Over-Complicating Things

Old 02-11-2012, 04:22 PM
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Over-Complicating Things

Is it just me or does anyone else think that we way over-complicate the issue of addiction. My theory is that we drink to change the way we feel. Alcohol is highly addictive so we get addicted. Once addicted the neural pathways and brain chemistry change to adapt to the addiction. Here's an explanation of what's going on in the brain : Corrupted Choice

Based on scientific evidence we know that once addicted to alcohol it becomes incredibly hard to make rational decisions, this is why we become alcoholics. The only solution for those of us who easily addict to alcohol is to knock it off for good, that's the beginning and the end of the story. Problem solved!!
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:32 PM
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The knock it off for good method....I like it.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:53 PM
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I couldn't agree with you more, back to square one. Whatever methods one uses to arrive at that complete "knocking it off" point, the only treatment that is going to keep the disease at bay is complete abstinence.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:50 PM
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The problem is that your mind will not leave it alone and you will intermittently drink to excess for the rest of your life.You have no idea what a hold on your mind the alcohol has,trying to stay away from it you are going to find out pretty soon about alcoholism.
Maybe you'll come to AA and get sober.Good luck to you.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:02 PM
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I tried this for 25 years. I'm not disciplined enough or something!
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:11 PM
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Think about it this way, most people won't break an addiction until the pain of the thing becomes greater than the pleasure. What's the next thing we all do? Seek out a recovery program or a way to exorcise our inner demons of course. Now, we all know that there are tons of recovery programs out there many of which have nothing in common with the others.

What we do know is that all methods seem to work to one degree or another but how could that be if so many of them have nothing in common, one with the other? The answer of course is that the only common thread is that they help us to "Knock it off for good".

If we had the raw determination and fortitude "Knocking it off for good" would work as well as any method out there. Because the pull of addictions can be so incredibly strong we often use various methods to help us along, these would be support programs. There's nothing wrong with arming yourself with every weapon you can think of as the "Beast" is a very powerful adversary.

If by chance the "Knock it off for good" method doesn't seem to be enough we will need a program that serves 2 purposes :
1.) Keeps us off the substance long enough for the brain chemistry and neural pathways to normalize. The intense cravings and other discomfort will fade into nothingness given enough time.
2.) Keeps us centered in our resolve to not restart the addiction again and again. My own experience has been that each time we restart the addiction it's not like we're starting anew but more like we're picking up where we left off with the last binge/bender. The detox gets worse with each subsequent withdrawal episode.

It doesn't seem to matter how we achieve those 2 things, I prefer the mind/brain based programs such as Mindfulness, Avert, Urge Surfing etc. as addiction is a mind based issue. It really doesn't make much difference how we stop the insanity of addiction, what does matter in the end is that we "Knock it off for good".
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
as addiction is a mind based issue.
Where I have a problem with that...Is I (and many others) look at it as a threefold disease....Mind...Body...and Spirit. I had a little more to work on than just saying..."Well...That's it. I'm gonna knock it off." Hell...If I could have done that...I would have done it during the week the days.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Is it just me or does anyone else think that we way over-complicate the issue of addiction.
Yeah. I believe addicts have a propensity towards self-sabotage, and counterproductive thinking is a common manifestation.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The only solution for those of us who easily addict to alcohol is to knock it off for good, that's the beginning and the end of the story. Problem solved!!
No doubt this logic is mechanically sound. But, it's also mechanically sound to say the solution to the problem of not making a million dollars per year is to finding a job that pays $19,231/wk and staying at it for 52 weeks.

Both my example and the argument that addiction is eradicated by "knocking off" addictive behavior are reductive fallacies. That is, they are oversimplifications. Outside the logical construct, there are countless reasons why million dollar annual incomes are so rare and there is an entire branch of science devoted to the study of addiction.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
If we had the raw determination and fortitude "Knocking it off for good" would work as well as any method out there.
I think it's more than that. As the term is being used here, the "knocking it off for good" method is geared towards those with certain personality characteristics.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Think about it this way, most people won't break an addiction until the pain of the thing becomes greater than the pleasure. .
I think this sentence is so true.

Although I am fully aware of the seriousnesses of withdrawals I also believe it is the soul of the person who wants the feeling of euphoria and not some predestined programmed genetics.

It's the soul of the human who wants to escape and then finds their body becomes chemically altered and pains them eventually.

To answer honestly I would have kept drinking if it didn't hurt my body so much. I like the feeling that much, I actually love it. But I chose to save my body's health by quitting.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:47 AM
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Most alcoholics have had long experience with knocking it off for good, endlessly. The temporarily sober will drink again not because they understand too much and have delved into the subject too deeply and have needlessly complicated things. Through over simplification and minimizing they fail to understand what they are up against, and do not secure sufficient answers that work well to overcome it, generally speaking.

They are no more choosing to drink when they feel good and have decided firmly not to drink again than an epileptic can decide very firmly with ironclad resolve to not have a fit.

It's part of the disconnect with reality that goes with being an alcoholic that despite years of failed experiments with self willing sobriety he/she will not catch on there's any pattern there at all and will continue to be quite sure that since they've made 8.346 days/months/years this time the problem has without a doubt been solved this time at last.

And, then they crawl back and try it yet again. Lives of alcoholics are most often spent running the maze and returning repeatedly mystified to the starting line, the next time going left instead of right, doing a diagonal this time through the maze, ending again at square one because there is no escape from what we will carry to our graves.

A very few of us have our problem removed and are freed from the usual suffering, the rest of our tribe are forced to deal one way or another, fighting against their nature or pretending what they live out through their years isn't really in fact happening to them.

Telling the newly sober to just knock it off for good and be done with it sounds good in the saying, and I know it gets to be a drag to give out bad news.

If anyone new and looking for answers is reading this...just ignore the above and fer chrissakes knock it off for good already, ok?

There, that's it fixed now.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
No doubt this logic [knocking it off for good] is mechanically sound. But, it's also mechanically sound to say the solution to the problem of not making a million dollars per year is to finding a job that pays $19,231/wk and staying at it for 52 weeks.
Not to nit-pick here, Ranger, but since you've used this example at least twice already, it should be noted that not doing something, as in not drinking, is not equivalent to doing something, such as finding a job and then working for a year. A more accurate analogy would be this...

How to lose your $1M in savings in a year:
  1. Sit back and let the wife/husband/bf/gf spend $19,231 on shopping per week using your check card.
  2. No matter how mundane the purchases are, do nothing to stop them.
  3. Wait until the balance drops to zero.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sapling View Post
Where I have a problem with that...Is I (and many others) look at it as a threefold disease....Mind...Body...and Spirit. I had a little more to work on than just saying..."Well...That's it. I'm gonna knock it off." Hell...If I could have done that...I would have done it during the week the days.
That is most certainly the case for me also...I must address body, mind, and spirit.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:29 AM
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as addiction is a mind based issue.
The American Medical Association categorizes alcoholism as a mental illness. As the Big Book says "alcohol was but a symptom". It is really very simple. Do you choose to drink today or not?
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by langkah View Post
Most alcoholics have had long experience with knocking it off for good, endlessly. The temporarily sober will drink again...
Then they haven't actually knocked it off for good, have they?

Originally Posted by langkah View Post
.... not because they understand too much and have delved into the subject too deeply and have needlessly complicated things. Through over simplification and minimizing they fail to understand what they are up against, and do not secure sufficient answers that work well to overcome it, generally speaking.
This is true.

Originally Posted by langkah View Post
It's part of the disconnect with reality that goes with being an alcoholic that despite years of failed experiments with self willing sobriety he/she will not catch on there's any pattern there at all and will continue to be quite sure that since they've made 8.346 days/months/years this time the problem has without a doubt been solved this time at last. And, then they crawl back and try it yet again.
Their mistake is in thinking that "solved" means that they can drink again, as in "normies" must drink, otherwise they wouldn't be normal, and only "alcoholics" have to abstain. They fail to realize that not drinking is actually normal.

Originally Posted by langkah View Post
Lives of alcoholics are most often spent running the maze and returning repeatedly mystified to the starting line, the next time going left instead of right, doing a diagonal this time through the maze, ending again at square one because there is no escape from what we will carry to our graves.
This is certainly true in a great number of cases.

Originally Posted by langkah View Post
A very few of us have our problem removed and are freed from the usual suffering...
I prefer to free myself, personally.

Originally Posted by langkah View Post
....the rest of our tribe are forced to deal one way or another, fighting against their nature...
Addiction seems to be primarily driven by intolerance of desire, hence all the talk from addicted people about wanting the desire to be removed. While somewhat understandable, that attitude is a tad bit wimpy if you ask me. I have sexual desire for certain people who are not my significant other, and which I had better restrain, and I do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It would be most peculiar to want to be neutered in order to not feel any desire at all, however.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The only solution for those of us who easily addict to alcohol is to knock it off for good, that's the beginning and the end of the story. Problem solved!!
Well, the knocking it off for good part came as a result of understanding addiction along with faith that sobriety was the right path. I tried the more direct approach of deciding to quit and then quitting but I would forget why I decided to quit. Then, I would remember and later forget and be stuck in this pattern until I really got that, for me, addiction to alcohol is permanent and the ability to forget is also permanent.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
...it should be noted that not doing something, as in not drinking, is not equivalent to doing something...
I do not classify an addict's efforts to not use as inaction.

I understand, however, argument by analogy is a dicey proposition and your mileage might vary.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:25 AM
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Indeed it is very simple. An addict chose the known risks of continuing to use an addictive substance. And guess what, they got addicted!

You can come up with disease theories and spiritual deficiencies as much as you want but isn't it strange how only those who persist in using addictive substances become addicted?
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post
As the Big Book says "alcohol was but a symptom". It is really very simple. Do you choose to drink today or not?
If drinking alcohol were indeed 'but a symptom', then logically, you really couldn't choose not to drink, could you? That would be like saying that you could choose to not get a fever, which is 'but a symptom', when you have the flu.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
.. isn't it strange how only those who persist in using addictive substances become addicted?
Not half as strange as my drinking becoming classically alcoholic within weeks of my first sips, or the fact I have college buddies whose drinking made mine look amateurish transitioned out of their drunken years quite effortlessly.

Relatively speaking, I was addicted in a flash. That my adolescent self didn't recognize what was happening is a testament to both my naivety and the power of addiction to make the irrational thoughts and behaviors appear normal.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post

The only solution for those of us who easily addict to alcohol is to knock it off for good, that's the beginning and the end of the story. Problem solved!!
I wish it had been that simple for me. I could have skipped about 5 years of "very bad things". All I ended up doing through repeated attempts at self managed abstinence was, teaching my body how to recuperate between binges. The dry spells did get a little longer each time but the relapse's got even worse each time.

I was one of those unfortunate alcoholics that could not get the obsession to drink out of my head with just calendar days of not-drinking. I had to find a way of ending the suffering that made life uncomfortable in my own skin in the first place. I had literally lost the power of choice when it came to drinking simply because life without drinking was not worth living. Drinking was but a symptom of a much bigger malady - feeling constantly restless, irritable and discontented.

What I did end up with was a whole new way of life where suffering was no longer the result of me making mountains out of molehills. Today I let molehills stay molehills and even find I can make mountains back into molehills by using a few simple spiritual principles. Thus the old Buddhist saying:

"In this life, pain is inevitable - suffering is optional".
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