langkah

'If this were truly the case, Boleo, you would have more than just a daily reprieve. You would have a lifetime reprieve instead.'

Bingo. No urge surfing, no cost benefit analysis, and no dealing with voices that tell us to drink. It replaces our obsession of someday controlling and enjoying our drinking with a neutral attitude toward alcohol. It loses our interest, and we gain interest in more meaningful things.

It's like an undeserved gift that's well worth a little continuing effort to maintain.

Terminally Unique

Instead, you do Steps 10/11/12 over and over again, and Steps 4/5 on a regular, if not continual basis.

langkah

'Instead, you do Steps 10/11/12 over and over again, and Steps 4/5 on a regular, if not continual basis.'

Me? No, I did my 4th in the latter part of '82 and the 5th in early '83. Taking the first 9 steps was an amazing experience. Instead of guessing, you need only ask.

I do admit when I'm wrong, pray and meditate, try to help alcoholics when I can and live right. Guilty as charged, TU. Some days I'm more guilty than other days, but I do my best.

Would you like to tell me more about what the AAs do?

Terminally Unique

OK, that was an educated guess, though obviously not universal. I was taught to do 4/5 every couple years, preferably once a year.

Boleo

I have often wondered about this myself. I know for certain that I had lost the power of choice when it came to choosing not to drink. Alcohol was clearly my master. Sometimes I wonder if I still have lost the power of choice when it comes to going back to drinking.

There was a brief period of time when I used to deliberately hang around wet places and wet faces in hopes that I could be talked into drinking again. All it did was make me realize that the attraction was gone and alcohol would never be my friend again. If there is a down-side to this spiritual awakening business? It is this:

Mystery, romance and adventure will never be the same again.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

I don't see there being any problem per se with there being more than one disease model of alcoholism. What I do see as problematic is the conflation of one disease model with another. In particular, I have great misgivings about the conflation of the medical disease model and the spiritual disease model, because, while it is fascinating to explore the connection between spiritual beliefs and convalescence, there is nothing inherently spiritual about medicine, and it seem that it would be dangerous to allow spirituality to color medicine.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

What's so undesirable about these things? Why wouldn't you want to be aware of your thoughts?

TheJungianThing

4/5 some do yearly, sort of like an annual housecleaning.

Step 10 is sort of like making sure your deoderant is working before as you walk into the office on a hot sticky day, or making sure your breath doesn't stink when you're about to talk to that new girl. Wiping your ass after you poop and saying "excuse me, I'm sorry" if you fart in a crowded elevator. In a spiritual sense of course.

Step 11 is like taking a shower before the day and one at the end of the day, only the one at the end of the day is more relaxing, kind of a review of the day. And talk about getting in touch with ones thoughts. Meditation is wild man.

Step 12 is like Yo, what's up, here to help. Let me know what I can do. In all aspects of life.


Real sinister stuff I know. Those crazy Buchmanites. Rank up there with Masons in terms of evil conspiracy.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

I think the point is that, if one's desire to drink is completely eradicated, as Boleo claims his is, one should not have to do the amount of maintenance that AA claims is necessary to stay sober.

I should note here that there is a certain suspicion of activities such as urge surfing and weighing the pros and cons, as if continuing to do them implies that the person doing them is at some remedial stage in their sobriety. However, as I recall the AA literature is quite clear that if you don't continuously perform Steps 10, 11, and 12, you are in grave danger of drinking again. So I don't understand why one would have any more trouble staying sober through urge surfing and weighing the pros and cons.

TheJungianThing

Well they say "the insanity returns".

I've seen it in action actually, it's quite intense. The book, to my knowledge talks about no longer being obsessed with the notion of drinking. It mentions being tempted, but being able to react sanely to such a temptation. It doesn't really get into the degree of that temptation, be it a burning desire or a passing thought. In my Catholic education I recall "temptation" being just a little bit more than a passing thought. More like a passing thought, siezed, and the process of intent begins. The other notion is that - how can one be tempted by something one doesn't want at all ?

I do not YEARN for alcohol. There is no yearning. Nor am I obsessed with the notion of drinking safely and in a manner where I can control AND enjoy it.

I'm free. I don't know if that helps.

But to anyone who is at their wits end reading this stuff with a bottle in one hand a loaded pistol somewhere nearby - relax, the good news is - you can get sober, stay sober, and get into heated debate over semantics, methodologies, philosophy, etc.. and have fun with it. It's a lot more fun than a smelly jail cell with **** on the floor anyway.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

If your desire to drink has been "completely removed, root and branch", how could it return?

One shouldn't have to do maintenance o for some thing that no longer exists.

TheJungianThing

Ever had a wart removed ? Ingrown toenail ? Sometimes they come back.

What's your angle here ? How can I help you if I can help you ?

TheOnlyDryPaddy

But, at least for warts, you can't prevent them from coming back.

Why are you questioning my motives?

I understand that this forum is about recovery support. However, if we are going to discuss the philosophies of different recovery programs (which is what seems to be happening and may not be the thing that should happen), I think it's reasonable to question the presupposition that constant maintenance is needed if one's desire not to drink is removed as thoroughly as Boleo says that his was. It strikes me as somewhat disingenuous that the same people who claim that their desire to drink has bee completely removed insist that they need to perform constant maintenance to keep from drinking but somewhat derisively refer to activities such as urge surfing, weighing the pros and cons, and listening to the addictive voice as "tips and tricks", as if they are some cheap alternative to real sobriety.

maskingtape

TheJungian thing mentioned an allergy that makes people crave alcohol. Is there any truth to that?

TheOnlyDryPaddy

"Allergy" is a metaphor for a abnormal reaction to a ingested substance. As far I understand, AA is the only organization to use "allergy" to describe the alcoholic's reaction to alcohol. In standard medical vocabulary, "allergy" refers specifically immune hypersensitivity reactions, and the body's reaction to alcohol is not mediated through the immune system. In short, alcoholism is not a medical allergy, but "allergy" does serve as a powerful metaphor for the alcoholic's subjective experience of being affected differently by alcohol than other people are.

Dee74

Hi MaskingTape

The Dr's Opinion in the Big Book of AA mentions an allergy to alcohol.

Many people, both in and out of AA, believe that - many others do not....so I guess it depends on you whether you think there's any truth in it

There are online versions of the BB available for you to read it yourself.
Welcome
D

TheJungianThing

I see. Well. I can't speak for anyone elses experience. I would say my "desire" to drink has been removed but like a weed can come back. "Urge surfing", "weighing the pros and cons" and listening to the addictive voice sounds like a lot of word salad.

"Urge surfing" = don't act out on an impulse. Close ? Controlling ones behavior ?

"Weighing the pros and cons" - Sounds like reasonable sane thinking for people to engage in.

"Listening to the addictive voice" - Okay, sure, understanding that I am not my mind and that just because a suggestive thought comes from the mind doesn't mean one needs to act on it.

I don't see anything wrong with them, I think they're great tips and great tricks that most people with a sane mind engage in.

By the time I get to Step 10, sanity has returned and I can engage in sane activities.

I don't see the problem here.

TheJungianThing

Yes, I use it within the context of a book written in 1939 that used the term to make a point about an abnormal reaction to alcohol. When my wife drinks she gets sort of tired and sleepy, a bit loopy and rarely finishes one drink much less two. When I drink alcohol I get an energized, powerful in control feeling and am ready to rock and roll, after I have another one, and another one, and another one, pretty soon I'm drinking what she didn't finish drinking and anything left in the house. That's how my "abnormal" reaction manifested itself. Oddly enough or maybe scientifically enough sugar, chips and cookies have a similar impact on me - but I can stop eating them. Alcohol felt real good, so I went at it like it was my job.

I'm allergic to poison ivy, I break out in a rash and can't stop scratching even though I know it's bad for me. I'm allergic to alcohol, I can't stop drinking even though I know it's bad for me.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

Hmmm....possibly that people do these things without having worked the Step or (as in my case) having gone back to drinking and decided to sober up again but somehow remain sober. These aren't just "great tips and great tricks" for sane people, they work well for people who a newly dry.

TheOnlyDryPaddy

These are two completely different physical reactions to toxins. The former is a medical allergy, but the latter isn't.