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What Alcoholism Is?

Old 01-26-2012, 03:10 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The term "Real Alcoholic" infers that there must be a lot of "Fake Alcoholics" out there. That's the inference my mind draws whenever I hear/see that phrase.
I spent most of my life hanging out with alcoholics...I was especially attracted to ones that were worse than me. That was hard to find. I can't say I ever met a fake one. If you ever meet one....Ask them why they are doing it.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The recovery community is loaded with phrases that are rife with projection, innuendo...double entendre, you'd have to be blind not to see that. Why do you think this is?
You mean all that passive-aggressive Orwellian Doublespeak? It results from the pathologization and attempted suppression of anger, which in and of itself is not necessarily bad. Try starting a thread called "cherish your anger" or "anger is a gift" on a recovery forum if you want to see what I mean.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The recovery community is loaded with phrases that are rife with projection, innuendo...double entendre, you'd have to be blind not to see that. Why do you think this is?
It's mostly a device to shut down argument and legitimate discussion, IMO.

As in:

Newcomer: "I'm questioning whether Program A is right for me. Lots of people seem to like it, but its philosophy makes no sense to me."

Non-Member of Program A: "Well, that's no big deal. There are plenty of other ways to go, just take a little time to educate yourself about your options."

Member of Program: "No, don't educate yourself. In fact, if you educate yourself, and pick a different program, and are successful, you were never a Real Alcoholic in the first place. And if you ARE a Real Alcoholic, and by some miracle you do manage to quit drinking without using Program A, you won't be Really Sober. You will be nothing but a miserable Dry Drunk."
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:15 AM
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I don't think that's a fair portrayal OTT of the vast majority of 12 steppers here on SR.

"Real Alcoholic" is from the big book and the only problem with that term is non-12 steppers don't understand it's origin. And I haven't seen too much use of the term "Dry Drunk"... except, of course, by non 12 steppers who seem offended by the term.

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Old 01-26-2012, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
It's mostly a device to shut down argument and legitimate discussion, IMO.

As in:

Newcomer: "I'm questioning whether Program A is right for me. Lots of people seem to like it, but its philosophy makes no sense to me."

Non-Member of Program A: "Well, that's no big deal. There are plenty of other ways to go, just take a little time to educate yourself about your options."

Member of Program: "No, don't educate yourself. In fact, if you educate yourself, and pick a different program, and are successful, you were never a Real Alcoholic in the first place. And if you ARE a Real Alcoholic, and by some miracle you do manage to quit drinking without using Program A, you won't be Really Sober. You will be nothing but a miserable Dry Drunk."
Your post speaks more to the selfish human condition of self-inflicted delusion and ignorance which spans the entire breadth of human history than it does to the veracity of AA.

I am a member of AA. Any member of AA who speaks as you have the member above speaking, such a member displays his or her total misunderstanding of AA, and so is a poor representative of AA.

I suppose the metaphor of the blind leading the blind is apt here. Just because so and so says whatever, and claims to be a member in AA based usually soley on their selfish desire to be sober, with no responsibility to the complete and full realization of the entire AA program, well, that particular member is obviously blinded by his or her own ignorance, and is exactly the member that AA hopes will ASAP actually start living what they are preaching...

I am a member of AA. I will not hold court and consider judgement against any member merely because they are in need of enlightenment. There is more to life than AA. I look around the whole of the world, and I see that AA gets things alot more right than they do wrong as an organization dedicated to bringing sobriety to alcoholics en masse.

Its actually remarkable the organization ever came into world-wide existence at all, let alone survives with a membership in the millions...

I am a member of AA.
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:51 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
You mean all that passive-aggressive Orwellian Doublespeak? It results from the pathologization and attempted suppression of anger, which in and of itself is not necessarily bad. Try starting a thread called "cherish your anger" or "anger is a gift" on a recovery forum if you want to see what I mean.
I was feeling very negative earlier and was pondering all the catch-phrases that I see and hear. I instantly found myself in a "shame spiral"
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:31 AM
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I'd agree.....unless you're a real alcoholic or drug addict, in which case.....the time for discernment has already come and gone. ..this thread.

Big deal, then I'm just a dry drunk heading for a sober bottom. ... yesterday

I agree, that is a miserable existence and hard to find any worth in. You may have heard the expression "dry drunk" in AA. I was one of those for a long time....day before yesterday

I could go on.

These terms get tossed about all the time. I'm not making this stuff up.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:13 AM
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
I'd agree.....unless you're a real alcoholic or drug addict, in which case.....the time for discernment has already come and gone. ..this thread.

Big deal, then I'm just a dry drunk heading for a sober bottom. ... yesterday

I agree, that is a miserable existence and hard to find any worth in. You may have heard the expression "dry drunk" in AA. I was one of those for a long time....day before yesterday

I could go on.

These terms get tossed about all the time. I'm not making this stuff up.
No, you're not making this stuff up, lol.

You could be taking things out of context in some examples, and perhaps there is an edge to your critical evaluations, but I have found you, imo, to be a wonderfully good catalyst for some great dialogues on chronic alcoholism and life long sobriety.

I love Star Wars. What a great human story of the triumph of the Force over all things material and non-material including getting over "itself" as shown through the remarkable relationship of Luke and his father Darth Vader. How awesome is that?!

I guess to me it is important on an individual basis who is tossing what, you know?

May the Force be with you!
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:18 AM
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Two 'dry drunks' and one 'real' all within 2 days...how can you possibly sleep?

Another good thread hijacked by the hyper-sensitive.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The recovery community is loaded with phrases that are rife with projection, innuendo...double entendre, you'd have to be blind not to see that. Why do you think this is?
I think it's because we are expected to share our experience, not tell others what they should do... projecting, innuendo, all that, though, are surreptitious ways of getting around that.

Well, at least that's my 2 cents.
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
The term "Real Alcoholic" infers that there must be a lot of "Fake Alcoholics" out there. That's the inference my mind draws whenever I hear/see that phrase.
in·fer
   [in-fur] Show IPA verb, -ferred, -fer·ring.
verb (used with object)
to derive by reasoning
to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises
to guess, surmise

That's my point BTSO..... people who know better (and it's usually the same folks) infer what they want to infer - hence my post about their hackles going up being something "they" may want to take a look at in themselves. That's what I'VE been taught to do when something bothers ME......look at the disturbance within myself that's allowed that "thing" to bother me at all.
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Old 01-26-2012, 11:01 AM
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One thing's for certain - if I was a newcomer and stumbled upon this thread, I would need something or someone to sort through it all! It's a powerful testament to the need that most people have for fellowship and/or guidance of some sort as you begin this process. For those who base a portion of their recovery on carrying some sort of message they believe in, it seems that starting from a place of love and service is much more important and powerfulful initially than any content that a particular approach suggests. They may never even get in the door to recovery.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
These terms [real alcoholic, dry drunk] get tossed about all the time. I'm not making this stuff up.
No, you are not making this stuff up. Still, neither term really bothers me much as of late. For one thing, I have no interest whatsoever in publicly labeling myself, or even in privately considering myself, an alcoholic. For another, when viewed through the lens of AVRT, the "dry drunk" condition practically becomes a joke.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:21 PM
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
Addiction "treatment” presupposes that if you become better adjusted, happier, and fill that "dark hole" in your soul, that you will somehow be less inclined to get drunk. Of course, anyone who has actually been addicted should know better. If you are addicted, you always want to drink, in sickness or in health, rich or poor, happy or sad, for better or for worse. Personally, I don't believe there is anything to treat, and the common thread among people who successfully recover from addiction is simply knocking it off for good.


At first glance TU's post seems to oversimplify but it makes me wonder if, when you cut to the chase, he's not 100% correct. Try looking at it as a chicken and egg type thing. We all know that alcoholism causes a plethora of complications, it will disassemble your life piece by piece. It will destroy the very essence of your being, it's a terrible way to live and a horrific way to die.

What came first though, the complications of the addiction or the addiction itself? If we do away with the addiction won't many of the complications go away on their own? Does it make sense to put a ton of focus on the complications in the hope that if we reverse most of them we might cure the root problem which is the addiction, isn't this kind of backwards?

Why not take a more direct approach and get rid of the addiction first and deal with rebuilding all the other stuff later. The cravings are just thoughts and you do have the power to act on the thoughts or reject them. Remember that once addicted the primitive brain will begin to see "normal" as a very uncomfortable state, it will demand its fix of pleasure and relief because it gravitates toward pleasure and away from pain, that's its job.

In early recovery the primitive brain will issue many demands (cravings), it's only doing it's job though and you do have the power to say no whether you realize it or not. Tools like Mindfulness Meditation, Rational Recovery, Urge Surfing and many others can teach you how to regain control of that part of your mind. You do have to want to quit more than you want to drink or any method is going to be an uphill battle. Just some thoughts, happy Friday everyone!
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
What came first though, the complications of the addiction or the addiction itself?
I contend this question has no universal answer, though folks on the far ends of each "camp" might disagree.

I also contend the answer provides a hint of what type of recovery program might be effective.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Why not take a more direct approach and get rid of the addiction first and deal with rebuilding all the other stuff later.
Absolutely! And there's a recent thread (Moderation Management?) that provides some excellent dialogue on the futility of trying to work a program while "wet".
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Absolutely! And there's a recent thread (Moderation Management?) that provides some excellent dialogue on the futility of trying to work a program while "wet".

My take is that self improvement and growth both spiritually and every other way are a lifelong undertaking but we can seperate those things from a stop drinking program. They may have many things in common but they are not 100% dependant, one on the other.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
My take is that self improvement and growth both spiritually and every other way are a lifelong undertaking but we can seperate those things from a stop drinking program. They may have many things in common but they are not 100% dependant, one on the other.
Agreed, and I don't think any but the staunchest AA proponents would argue for 100% dependancy in 100% of people.

A wide variety of recovery approaches is necessary to suit a wide variety of people. I think it's a common human trait to---knowingly or not--be threatened by another's truth if it conflicts directly with our own.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post

Personally, I don't believe there is anything to treat
You and I sort of see this similarly... I feel it is of a person's essence. I wasn't born alcoholic, but I was born curious. LOL

However...

There was a reflex pathway that took hold... Bored? Drink or other stuff... Frustrated? Ditto... all that. You know, restless, irritable, discontent. It's real.

So learning another way to deal with that...

Also, people get to recovery with a WHOLE lot of wreckage, and RESENTMENT... seems AA is one good way to deal with that.

IDK, I think for some, just unplugging from the urge and the AV is enough, for others... (you know, REAL alcoholics.... LOLOLOLOL ) that may not be, enough.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark75 View Post
(you know, REAL alcoholics.... LOLOLOLOL ) that may not be, enough.

Instant No Button! Star Wars funnies FTW!
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