What Alcoholism Is?
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Sure, acceptance (that we have a problem) is important, and as you point out, we don't want to get so caught up in questioning the man, or AA, or whatever it happens to be, that we neglect our own immediate problems.
But you seem to be suggesting that we should only question things after implementing a plan for recovery, which IMO is far too late! If we don't permit ourselves to be discerning when evaluating competing recovery options and reflecting on our own cognitive processes, we won't be making an informed decision when we finally do set down a plan for ourselves.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that such questioning is itself a part of the recovery process. It's important that we understand as much as possible how our minds are working, so that we can lead that mind to function more perfectly (or at least less destructively).
Still, I'm happy to hear that you recognize the importance of questioning and discernment, even if we disagree about when precisely we should apply it. Many folks I've encountered don't even do that. I've been told by some that I shouldn't (even after having years of sobriety under my belt) try to understand my mind at all! Instead, they say, I must "keep it simple," and not "overthink it." That kind of anti-intellectualism is extremely frustrating and, quite frankly, dangerously naive. But because it is so prevalent in alcoholic circles, it seems to me even more important to stress the role of discernment, self-reflection and striving for understanding in the recovery process.
But you seem to be suggesting that we should only question things after implementing a plan for recovery, which IMO is far too late! If we don't permit ourselves to be discerning when evaluating competing recovery options and reflecting on our own cognitive processes, we won't be making an informed decision when we finally do set down a plan for ourselves.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that such questioning is itself a part of the recovery process. It's important that we understand as much as possible how our minds are working, so that we can lead that mind to function more perfectly (or at least less destructively).
Still, I'm happy to hear that you recognize the importance of questioning and discernment, even if we disagree about when precisely we should apply it. Many folks I've encountered don't even do that. I've been told by some that I shouldn't (even after having years of sobriety under my belt) try to understand my mind at all! Instead, they say, I must "keep it simple," and not "overthink it." That kind of anti-intellectualism is extremely frustrating and, quite frankly, dangerously naive. But because it is so prevalent in alcoholic circles, it seems to me even more important to stress the role of discernment, self-reflection and striving for understanding in the recovery process.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 133
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot 
My chronic alcoholism is indeed an illness of mind, body, and spirit -- and not merely my brain seeking alcoholic pleasure. I cannot control the desire to drink. The desire to drink has been removed from me or otherwise made powerless [locked up] because of my sobriety. My alcoholic mind is shut down, and my sober mind is alive and well.
As well, I don't accept that alcoholics relapse because of character defects or otherwise lacking in quality of personality. Relapses are made manifest from living a life which supports and nourishes alcoholism instead of living a practical common sense sober non-drinking life. For me, that sober life also includes living spiritually.
As well, I don't accept that alcoholics relapse because of character defects or otherwise lacking in quality of personality. Relapses are made manifest from living a life which supports and nourishes alcoholism instead of living a practical common sense sober non-drinking life. For me, that sober life also includes living spiritually.
My own attraction with RR, for the record, is I've only one main thing in my life I would like to change, my drinking. I'm a good father, loving husband, hard worker and devoted friend. The only thing my drinking has done is kept my wife awake on occasion, that I've already apologized for. AA requires me to search for unnecessary reasons to apologize to people for transgressions that never happened, just to join the club.
"To thine own self be true"
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
I'm curious VP, how much time would you advise the newcomers posting here to take ito reflect on their own cognitive processes, developing an understanding of how their minds are working and researching the competing recovery options in a discerning way before finally setting down and making a plan for themselves?
You may recall when we're drinking there's not an abundance of spare hours left over to devote to all these subjects you say are best studied in advance of doing something about what's damaging our lives.
Tacking on another year or two for pre-sobriety research and careful decision making utilizing the several hours of clear thinking available to us each week might well wind up being a huge negative to those within our contact spheres.
But I do agree that we would wind up afterwards with more and better information than we had available to us before starting our examination of the subject. Some of that additional information may indeed carry quite a cost, but all knowledge is valuable.
Perhaps you could prepare a list of material for wet drunks to go through as a beginning course of study for them, on their good days.
You may recall when we're drinking there's not an abundance of spare hours left over to devote to all these subjects you say are best studied in advance of doing something about what's damaging our lives.
Tacking on another year or two for pre-sobriety research and careful decision making utilizing the several hours of clear thinking available to us each week might well wind up being a huge negative to those within our contact spheres.
But I do agree that we would wind up afterwards with more and better information than we had available to us before starting our examination of the subject. Some of that additional information may indeed carry quite a cost, but all knowledge is valuable.
Perhaps you could prepare a list of material for wet drunks to go through as a beginning course of study for them, on their good days.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by vinepest
If we don't permit ourselves to be discerning when evaluating competing recovery options and reflecting on our own cognitive processes, we won't be making an informed decision when we finally do set down a plan for ourselves.
I've yet to go to a funeral for someone who actively engaged in the 12 steps, had a psychic change as a result and recovered... I did, though, go to 2 funerals this summer (one for an alkie and one for heroine user) who died in that period of discernment. To suggest someone who's an active alkie or addict continue to "think" and not act.......well......I hope that's not what you're suggesting.
If I "wake up" and I'm standing in the middle of the freeway with cars baring down on me.....it's best to get off the road first, then figure out how the heck I got there later.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
I've never seen any drunk work any program while still actively drinking. I can readily recall having both the Big Book and the RR book in plain sight while I was pouring that whiskey down my throat. I was going for the old "recovery by osmosis" method, which is somewhat amusing in hindsight. You need to put the bottle down long enough to get started.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by DayTrader
I'd agree.....unless you're a real alcoholic or drug addict, in which case.....the time for discernment has already come and gone.
OH GOD, not the "Real Alcoholic" thing again....
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 95
It's really all of the above - or can be. And alcoholism is very different than alcohol abuse. If just not drinking was the answer, rehabs would turn out sober, well-adjusted people - or so would toilet bowls for that matter. Alcoholism is the thinking, the personality and all of the traits (which are remarkably similar among us all) that underly the drinking and it's characterized by people who find the fix for it through alcohol. Many people have the same issues we have but there is one thing missing for them - alcohol doesn't fix it for them. So, rather than just feeling and thinking the things we do, as many others do as well, we add the pile of horrific consequences that result from drinking on top of those core issues. Usually consequences get us introduced to recovery - but it's not what makes it stick. It's when we realize what's underneath the drinking and the consequnces. That's where spritual options come into play. Spirituality is deeper than medicine and psychology - it deals with who we are rather than just what we think or how we function biologically. It's about Being rather than doing. For some, once they open up to the vast freedom and insight that lies in the seeking of spiritual truth, the idea of the old freedom that drinking gave them - the treatment for their alcoholism - becomes repulsive and and useless. The realization that the freedom that came from alcohol was a lie finally hits deep into our core.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by pangur
RobbyRobot: I'm sorry if I sounded like I was demeaning to you or others, that wasn't my intention, no offense intended and how you feel about your state is 100% yours, mine likewise. I was just trying to clear up some confusion about AA and AVRT, it is a thorny subject, but we all seek the same objective. AA has helped millions of people, and will continue to do so in the future.
My own attraction with RR, for the record, is I've only one main thing in my life I would like to change, my drinking. I'm a good father, loving husband, hard worker and devoted friend. The only thing my drinking has done is kept my wife awake on occasion, that I've already apologized for. AA requires me to search for unnecessary reasons to apologize to people for transgressions that never happened, just to join the club.
"To thine own self be true"
My own attraction with RR, for the record, is I've only one main thing in my life I would like to change, my drinking. I'm a good father, loving husband, hard worker and devoted friend. The only thing my drinking has done is kept my wife awake on occasion, that I've already apologized for. AA requires me to search for unnecessary reasons to apologize to people for transgressions that never happened, just to join the club.
"To thine own self be true"
"To thine own self be true"
Cheers!
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
IMHO,
Real alcoholic is a term used within AA, as defined by the AA Big Book, as a serious wake up call for members within the fellowship who are having difficulty keeping sober. As we can imagine, not everybody who gets a drunk on is an alcoholic whatsoever. As well, not everbody that dosen't drink or dosen't ever get a drunk going is an undiscovered alcoholic either.
Real alcoholic has no meaning outside of AA. To apply its meaning outside of AA circles is useless and worse because it creates a kind of social clic that can be used as a measurement of somebody's authenticity and moral standing spiritually.
I am a real alcoholic but not because I have alcoholism. I am a real alcoholic because I ascribe my illness of alcoholism to the AA definition as laid out in the Big Book. It's really as simple as that...
I embrace the AA understanding of alcoholism and practice AA steps in my daily living and because I do so, I am by default defined as a real alcoholic.
Others who do not ascribe their alcoholism to the AA definition, are no less alcoholic.
In both camps, if you will, we can find both problem drinkers and alcoholics. No single science, philosophy, religion, medical practice, or personal experience can define with supreme truth what is what for somebody else. At the end of the day, we all must be true to ourselves, and be responsible to our own understandings and definitions of what is or is not alcoholism.
AA has a workable and liviable understanding of alcoholism, and that particular understanding did not generally exist successfully in the public mind before AA. It is well experienced by countless drunks after all the decades since the birth of AA that it works in keeping chronic alcoholics sober for their entire lives. This is an accepted fact.
Other means and ways also exist which can and do keep chronic alcoholics sober too for their entire lives. This is also an accepted fact.
I am a real chronic alcoholic -- so what!? My stating so only discloses my acceptance of the AA understanding of alcoholism, and nothing more than that...
Real alcoholic is a term used within AA, as defined by the AA Big Book, as a serious wake up call for members within the fellowship who are having difficulty keeping sober. As we can imagine, not everybody who gets a drunk on is an alcoholic whatsoever. As well, not everbody that dosen't drink or dosen't ever get a drunk going is an undiscovered alcoholic either.
Real alcoholic has no meaning outside of AA. To apply its meaning outside of AA circles is useless and worse because it creates a kind of social clic that can be used as a measurement of somebody's authenticity and moral standing spiritually.
I am a real alcoholic but not because I have alcoholism. I am a real alcoholic because I ascribe my illness of alcoholism to the AA definition as laid out in the Big Book. It's really as simple as that...
I embrace the AA understanding of alcoholism and practice AA steps in my daily living and because I do so, I am by default defined as a real alcoholic.
Others who do not ascribe their alcoholism to the AA definition, are no less alcoholic.
In both camps, if you will, we can find both problem drinkers and alcoholics. No single science, philosophy, religion, medical practice, or personal experience can define with supreme truth what is what for somebody else. At the end of the day, we all must be true to ourselves, and be responsible to our own understandings and definitions of what is or is not alcoholism.
AA has a workable and liviable understanding of alcoholism, and that particular understanding did not generally exist successfully in the public mind before AA. It is well experienced by countless drunks after all the decades since the birth of AA that it works in keeping chronic alcoholics sober for their entire lives. This is an accepted fact.
Other means and ways also exist which can and do keep chronic alcoholics sober too for their entire lives. This is also an accepted fact.
I am a real chronic alcoholic -- so what!? My stating so only discloses my acceptance of the AA understanding of alcoholism, and nothing more than that...
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,949
What Alcoholism Is?
I go by the medical definition of alcoholism:
Primary. Once a person develops alcoholism it becomes a stand alone illness. In this way alcoholism is not a symptom of another medical illness.
Chronic. Alcoholism develops over time. The progression from heavy drinking to alcoholism can be rapid or gradual.
Progressive. Simply meaning, once one has alcoholism it gets worse over time. Medical complications from alcoholism can be seriously debilitating.
Potentially Fatal. Untreated alcoholism can kill a person.
So my understanding of what alcoholism is is rather cut and dry. The probable cause and best treatments for alcoholism can be varied depending on a persons opinion, experience and philosophy of such a matter. What I know from my experience and the experiences of others like myself is, there is no one single treatment for alcoholism that is appropriate for everybody.
Primary. Once a person develops alcoholism it becomes a stand alone illness. In this way alcoholism is not a symptom of another medical illness.
Chronic. Alcoholism develops over time. The progression from heavy drinking to alcoholism can be rapid or gradual.
Progressive. Simply meaning, once one has alcoholism it gets worse over time. Medical complications from alcoholism can be seriously debilitating.
Potentially Fatal. Untreated alcoholism can kill a person.
So my understanding of what alcoholism is is rather cut and dry. The probable cause and best treatments for alcoholism can be varied depending on a persons opinion, experience and philosophy of such a matter. What I know from my experience and the experiences of others like myself is, there is no one single treatment for alcoholism that is appropriate for everybody.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by DayTrader
To suggest someone who's an active alkie or addict continue to "think" and not act.......well......I hope that's not what you're suggesting.
We don't need to suspend action while thinking carefully about the situation. But neither do we need to suspend our best judgment when taking action!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by langkah
I'm curious VP, how much time would you advise the newcomers posting here to take ito reflect on their own cognitive processes, developing an understanding of how their minds are working and researching the competing recovery options in a discerning way before finally setting down and making a plan for themselves?
You may recall when we're drinking there's not an abundance of spare hours left over to devote to all these subjects you say are best studied in advance of doing something about what's damaging our lives.
Tacking on another year or two for pre-sobriety research and careful decision making utilizing the several hours of clear thinking available to us each week might well wind up being a huge negative to those within our contact spheres.
But I do agree that we would wind up afterwards with more and better information than we had available to us before starting our examination of the subject. Some of that additional information may indeed carry quite a cost, but all knowledge is valuable.
Perhaps you could prepare a list of material for wet drunks to go through as a beginning course of study for them, on their good days.
You may recall when we're drinking there's not an abundance of spare hours left over to devote to all these subjects you say are best studied in advance of doing something about what's damaging our lives.
Tacking on another year or two for pre-sobriety research and careful decision making utilizing the several hours of clear thinking available to us each week might well wind up being a huge negative to those within our contact spheres.
But I do agree that we would wind up afterwards with more and better information than we had available to us before starting our examination of the subject. Some of that additional information may indeed carry quite a cost, but all knowledge is valuable.
Perhaps you could prepare a list of material for wet drunks to go through as a beginning course of study for them, on their good days.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Some can safely self reflect and recover from alcoholism, some can't. I would suggest, that for some, not all, too much self reflection in early recovery could take a person back out, hence ... dangerous.
Self reflection is useful to me now. But at first, I found it counterproductive, and still do at times... naval gazing is not always a good thing.
You and I probably don't disagree on a lot. But I do think that over intellectualization is not a particularly useful tool in early recovery, in real (
) alcoholics.
Self reflection is useful to me now. But at first, I found it counterproductive, and still do at times... naval gazing is not always a good thing.
You and I probably don't disagree on a lot. But I do think that over intellectualization is not a particularly useful tool in early recovery, in real (
) alcoholics.
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I've never seen any drunk work any program while still actively drinking. I can readily recall having both the Big Book and the RR book in plain sight while I was pouring that whiskey down my throat. I was going for the old "recovery by osmosis" method, which is somewhat amusing in hindsight. You need to put the bottle down long enough to get started.
Back when I was still drinking, I lived in daily drunkeness with a guy who attended AA meetings, and he had a Big Book as well, naturally. Him and I would all too often get into really selfish drunken talks as we "discussed" the AA program and Big Book. He was always drinking it seemed, even as he attended AA. He did have a few days between drunks, but otherwise he was a rotten example of the program working. I had never at that time been to an AA meeting, and it was still years later that I finally got sober after attending my first meeting and doing a residential detox and rehab.
I don't believe that self-reflective thinking is really much of a problem if the alcoholic is thinking with a sober mind. Thinking with an alcoholic mind is of course a completely different experience and that kind of thinking only leads nowhere fast... of course.
Its really about the alcoholism and the sobriety -- the differences between the two experiences is absolutely remarkable. This is what is important, and not the actual experience of thinking or self-reflection, which is completely natural and healthy, imo.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
It's amazing to me......how many people, especially those of you who've been around more than a handful of days, weeks, months or years still are freaked out by someone in AA's usage of the word "real." Anyway.....TU drove the same point home after my post and we're in agreement. If my usage of "real" upset someone, maybe that's something you need to take a look at.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
Originally Posted by DayTrader
It's amazing to me......how many people, especially those of you who've been around more than a handful of days, weeks, months or years still are freaked out by someone in AA's usage of the word "real." Anyway.....TU drove the same point home after my post and we're in agreement. If my usage of "real" upset someone, maybe that's something you need to take a look at.
The term "Real Alcoholic" infers that there must be a lot of "Fake Alcoholics" out there. That's the inference my mind draws whenever I hear/see that phrase.
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