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Going Out and Going Insane

Old 01-14-2012, 08:09 PM
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Going Out and Going Insane

have found it on two occasions that it is better to go out and to come back then deal with the current insanity that I was in. Based on personal experience, it is sometimes worth it to go out and get your sanity back. It is better to drink for a moment and regain your sanity, than give up your sanity and go insane.

This is not orthodox teaching in the rooms, but personal experience has taught me that I had to go out in order to deal with certain personal struggles.

I am going to give on AA and put all of my recovery into SMART recovery. It is worth doing the PHd disseration that this program needs to become an established to AA. I am going to get PHd in Addiction Recovery and try to meld a version of the 12-steps and SMART Recovery to achieve a pathway to sobriety with people with OCD and autism and also atheistic and agnostic. My own problems at my current job force me to go over for the PHd in addiction psychology.\

I have tried to twelve steps to remain sober and they have not worked. It is time that sometime does the pioneering research into trying AA and SMART Recovery works. My life is worth it because the just the twelve steps alone has failed. It is time that we see that a combination of the steps and non-twelve step program work. I gave up sobriety today, but perhaps it is for the master cause. The master cause is to see somebody that does it both the twelve steps and SMART Recovery and write that major PHD dissertation that keeps generations sober. To put that research together and combine into one master PHD disseration is worth it.

It is sole reason why I am able to quit my job despite issues with my employer. It is the hope that I remain sober today because I now have the reason to give everything for soberity. It is a lot and lot of work, but this is what I am passionate about. I tried to auditing, and it failed to provide happiness in my career. I drank over my job because I had a security issue that I cannot handle I have drunk twice over this job and it is enough to drive me insane. And it is at the point of that point that both me and employer want to see me quit.

Once you drink over a job, it is time to leave that job. My job has not provide me happiness or has provided my employer with the performance that they deserve. There has been too many security breaches that I ashamed over and that I want to quit because of I bear the responsibility of not following the security regulations that I could. So it is time to go and get that PHD and let my employer use somebody's else talent to do the job.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by crisco View Post
have found it on two occasions that it is better to go out and to come back then deal with the current insanity that I was in. Based on personal experience, it is sometimes worth it to go out and get your sanity back. It is better to drink for a moment and regain your sanity, than give up your sanity and go insane.

This is not orthodox teaching in the rooms, but personal experience has taught me that I had to go out in order to deal with certain personal struggles.

I am going to give on AA and put all of my recovery into SMART recovery. It is worth doing the PHd disseration that this program needs to become an established to AA. I am going to get PHd in Addiction Recovery and try to meld a version of the 12-steps and SMART Recovery to achieve a pathway to sobriety with people with OCD and autism and also atheistic and agnostic. My own problems at my current job force me to go over for the PHd in addiction psychology.\

I have tried to twelve steps to remain sober and they have not worked. It is time that sometime does the pioneering research into trying AA and SMART Recovery works. My life is worth it because the just the twelve steps alone has failed. It is time that we see that a combination of the steps and non-twelve step program work. I gave up sobriety today, but perhaps it is for the master cause. The master cause is to see somebody that does it both the twelve steps and SMART Recovery and write that major PHD dissertation that keeps generations sober. To put that research together and combine into one master PHD disseration is worth it.

It is sole reason why I am able to quit my job despite issues with my employer. It is the hope that I remain sober today because I now have the reason to give everything for soberity. It is a lot and lot of work, but this is what I am passionate about. I tried to auditing, and it failed to provide happiness in my career. I drank over my job because I had a security issue that I cannot handle I have drunk twice over this job and it is enough to drive me insane. And it is at the point of that point that both me and employer want to see me quit.

Once you drink over a job, it is time to leave that job. My job has not provide me happiness or has provided my employer with the performance that they deserve. There has been too many security breaches that I ashamed over and that I want to quit because of I bear the responsibility of not following the security regulations that I could. So it is time to go and get that PHD and let my employer use somebody's else talent to do the job.
i hope it works for you crisco.. best of luck to you!
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:23 PM
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Based on personal experience, it is sometimes worth it to go out and get your sanity back. It is better to drink for a moment and regain your sanity, than give up your sanity and go insane.
This makes no sense to me - not nowadays anyway.

If you think drinking will give you back sanity Crisco I'm afraid you're very much mistaken.

Have you thought any more about seeing a Dr or a therapist for your anzirty and depression?

I think that route will beat drinking, or even starting a PhD, hands down everytime.

D
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:24 PM
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double post.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:25 PM
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Sounds like you are going through some serious challenges, but also that you are working toward a recovery plan that you can embrace.

Any program is just a tool. The program itself doesn't work or not work. It's inert. It's the people intent on recovery that do the work. Different people, different perspectives and experiences in life, find different tools address their situations when applied.

I think you will find many people who combine recovery methods and programs, and ample examples on which to do your dissertation. It's good to take an in depth look at this, and get the information out there.

I hope you find some relief soon from your stressful situations, and I will be honest. I hope those solutions don't include further drinking. It may ease your mind temporarily, but surely it is damaging your health in the meanwhile.

Recovery programs help us discover non drinking/using options to dealing with life's issues. They help us develop the resources within ourselves.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
Sounds like you are going through some serious challenges, but also that you are working toward a recovery plan that you can embrace.

Any program is just a tool. The program itself doesn't work or not work. It's inert. It's the people intent on recovery that do the work. Different people, different perspectives and experiences in life, find different tools address their situations when applied.

I think you will find many people who combine recovery methods and programs, and ample examples on which to do your dissertation. It's good to take an in depth look at this, and get the information out there.

I hope you find some relief soon from your stressful situations, and I will be honest. I hope those solutions don't include further drinking. It may ease your mind temporarily, but surely it is damaging your health in the meanwhile.

Recovery programs help us discover non drinking/using options to dealing with life's issues. They help us develop the resources within ourselves.
It was only temporary solution. VERY TEMPORARY. I did not regret what I did, but the moment was too upsetting for me to maintain a very fragile six month of sobriety and go insane. I tried to remain sober on Friday and I was drive to the point of insanity.

It is only recommended to drink when you have are the point of insanity that there is no solutions other than alcohol. And alcohol can provide a moment of sanity that you can go forward in our life. The alcohol temporary relieves the problem so you can think off alternative solutions to a problem and that are acceptance to move forward in life. Sobriety at that point is paralyzing and delibitating.

For a moment, sobriety was debilitating I have to drink over it. I felt so much anger and rage against myself that I had to drink or go insane killing somebody because I was angry over myself. I had suicidal thoughts. Sobriety provided no ways out in that time. Drinking over that moment would end the misery and I was able to accepted what I did.

Calling another alcoholic might have worked, but only for a time. In my case, the drink numbed all of those feelings and now I am total acceptance of my actions. I am going to quit my job without remorse or anger. I accept my a action against my employer.

It is not failure off AA either. AA gave me the total acceptance of the issue, but it required a drink to reach that conclusion. Without AA, I would have never been able to deal with this problem successfully. I had to what was right in that particular point in my life and used the tools that I had at that time. I totally took responsibility for the issue and blamed it my own fault. Without AA, I would never be able to do that. I admitted that I had to resign and find a new career field. Without AA, I would not be able to do that. This program has been a success beyond my own wildest dreams because I am quit my job without providing excess drama. Yes, it took liquor in my case, but without the program, I could never have endured this moment.


Yes, it take a drink, but AA provides the tools in life. In my life, despite my relapse, it provide me tools to deal with the problem. It was through my relapse and using the tools of AA that I have to restored myself to sanity

From my example, the tools of AA are always apply especially when we relapse. And sometime, it takes the relapse and tools of AA to return us back to state of sanity.

Too many people in this program have tried to remain sober when their capacity was beyond it. They needed a temporary relapse to grasp ahold of reality.

I know this because this I handle reality and I dealt with reality. Trying to deal with an issue that forced me to write a resignation letter to my boss was too much to remain sober. I took that first drink and that I stopped. I did not let the madness proceed me.

The alcohol was only there for today and today only. It is not there on Sunday or Monday. It is gone. I have to deal with sober reality as it is, but to get that temporary escape from the madness of my insanity that I get restored back towards to sanity.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:26 PM
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I'm listening to an AA speaker. He's telling me what's really wrong with me.

"Driven by a hundred forms of fear...."

He says "driven" does not imply choice. There are multiple other things by which I'm driven and they all cause internal unmanageability in my life. Left unattended they will drive me out to drink at some point. I take inventory and try to give them a name, identify the problem. Then I talk to my conception of God about them and someone else. If I owe an amends or restitution for harms done as a result, I make them. Then I sense as if I'm safe, protected and in a "neutral zone" as it were. My insides and head are less noisy, less irritated.

But rest assured if that didn't work or comes to a point where it doesn't work - drinking will - while I hope that day doesn't come for me, I'm grateful for you sharing your experience and offering hope that one can continue to hold and recover. One way shape or form, you can recover and get out of the alcoholic sea before you drown. Grab ahold of anything and everything you can - remember it - experience it - and get back to sobriety and recovered. Then get to helping someone else.

I came to AA because I remembered my mom told me years before that a friend of the familiy had gotten sober in AA. I wrote it off at one point. But in the depths of my despair I remembered him and that it worked for him. You can be that guy for someone else, maybe me someday who knows - maybe I"ll drink one day and wake up to what I've done like you have and before I sink to far down I'll remember "crisco" that guy from SoberRecovery. He fell in the alcoholic sea, but got out, he didn't drown - maybe I can too.

Good luck.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:16 PM
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Yeah and We Should Not Have

The more that I look at this post. The more that I state I can done it sober. Now, I have to go to back to all of the AA meetings that I go and admit that I am new person.

I just not going to do that. I just to tell people how much that I have. I am going to attend my regular meetings, but not let them know that this incident happened.

I too embrassed to admit that a newcomer for the fourth time. I just to want to move beyond this incident and just focus on sobriety.

I cannot afford to go to the Saddleback Club meetings and rely on the sobriety there. It is best to be silent on how much on recovery time that I have and just shut up in meetings.

I am not asking for more help to the problem. I asking forless help to my problems because I am too needy. I am a drain to my sponsor so I should dump him and that I become my own sponsor. I have failed too many times in this program for somebody to sponsor so I need to sponsor myself until I get over six months, I need less help and more will power to do things my own.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:04 AM
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crisco, I often dwell on fringe of what you have posted, that it's not working and the insanity of it all.
Here's my take;
There was a time when the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.
However, what makes sense to me as a alcoholic is,
The definition of insanity is to take a drink and know the result, and that is to do more insane and stupid things after that first drink. ( more of a personalized version for the real alcoholic)
So what's insane for this alcoholic after the first drop of alcohol?
1: I will crave more alcohol because the first drink will set off the phenomenon of craving.
2: The sudden change of personality, therefore I become instantly deluded and drink more for 1 reason that one drink was not enough and a thousand reasons that it's never enough.
3: The next day I will drink again because of what happened the previous day into blackout.
So, for me it's sane to think of the consequences before the drink, and to take a drink knowing the consequences or 1,2 & 3 is an insane action.

The insane thought also is to think I can drink normally.
Can someone please explain what is "normal drinking" just for the record ?Because no one has ever described what is, "normal drinking of alcohol".
I have drunk with hard drinkers who still have their family and jobs intact, a second car, boat, jet ski, grand children and a 4 wheel drive vehicle.
I have drank with these people in some distant past and have never been welcomed to drink with these types ever again, many times.
How do they do it?

Ok, so we are now at the point of , "in sobriety", having recovered, we still become restless, irritable and discontent, and all we know is that a drink will "fix it", yet if we take that drink we repeat the 1,2 and 3 cycle over again and remain alive to tell the story if lucky.

For me there are 2 AA's
1: The Big Book of AA ( instructions, or the path )
2: The fellowship of AA
( I cannot describe the fellowship of AA at this point in time, except to say what a lovely bunch of sober alcoholics they are and I'm one of them.)

So we have Step 1.
Step 1 is clear to me about my alcoholism, my physical "allergy" over alcohol and that I am powerless to stop the phenomenon of craving once I take that first drink. I am clear of that, and I know I can pass on that clarity to the suffering alcoholic who is ready to listen. ( I was not ready to listen for 35 years of trying to drink normally).

The one point I am clear about is in the BB of AA, in the Doctors Opinion that says:
We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all;
Key word here is "class".
What "class"?
The "class that has the phenomenon of craving?
Therefore I ask myself, "do I have that, the phenomenon of craving"?
Yes I do have that, in my inner most self I now know why I can never drink alcohol like "normal drinker, class"!!

This was not rocket science when I was taken through this first step in recovery. Sure enough it took me about 18 months to "get it".

I also needed to "test" the "jekyl and hyde" thing that is described on page 21
of the BB of AA, ( the instructions/recipe/whatever)
I tested it by taking a drink 3 weeks in AA, and sure enough, that "change" is what I thought being drunk and merry was all about. No, that's part of the disease of alcoholism. It cannot be x-rayed, ya cannot see it and only occurs once alcohol is taken. That is what one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic identify with. I do not know what it's like to NOT have the change in personality, same as the drinkers who don't have it, may never know what it's like to have it. We just have it!

But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.note He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk.
Ok, so I hope this explains the first half of Step 1, "Powerless over alcohol"
Do I admit that I don't have the power to stop the physical effects of alcohol in my body, do you admit these things and are these then accepted?

Once accepted, half the battle was over, I now became aware of my drinking, I now no longer have to prove I can drink, because of these facts posted above.
The obsession to drink got removed, aka Spiritual Awakening/Experience.

Again, this is not rocket science.

Ok, Life unmanageable, took me a while to sort that one out, but it was my thinking, whatever I try to do to live normal, became a nightmare even early in sobriety.
Why?
I did not know any other way to live.
That's where the fellowship of AA help me, and it's not just meetings and coffee. It's service, therefore it started to become a new way of living, I started to think sanely, ( each has their own individual circumstances)
Do I like everyone in the fellowship of AA?
No, but I love being there.

Ok, the thing about God in AA!
Chapter: We Agnostics.
In the beginning of that chapter it says;

In the preceding chapters you have learned something of alcoholism. We hope we have made clear the distinction between the alcoholic and the nonalcoholic. (Step 1)

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type

Step 2, once admitting we are powerless over alcohol, we need to find a power greater than ourselves, since alcohol drained us of any power by the time we surrendered, to alcohol, NOT surrendered to the willingness to live on.

How are we to find this "power"?
if,
If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism
The so called "university degrees".

The where and the how of it is in the book of AA,
The how is taking the 12 steps to get to that power, it's a "inside job"
That's what Steps 4 to 9 are about, some action, not just reading about.
One cannot bake a cake just by reading the recipe, ya have to do some work.
Once the BS is begining to clear up by taking the steps between 4-9, from my own experience I felt the peace and the power to not pick up the first drink, no matter what.
The God thing is what it is and I cannot explain it nor do i wish to ever attempt to even try, I just know it's there and use that source of power to keep me sober along with some other requirements, the disciplines.

Step 10 is self explanatory,
but Step 11 is one of my favorite steps.
It allows me to relate to that power, it helps with the alcoholic chatter in the head and that is what the very first early AA groups were doing back then, they practiced the Four Absolutes, or now as it is called, The Four Standards of AA
Who is practicing these things today while studying for a university degree on "how to stop drinking for the real alcoholic"?
Valium did not do much for me, all it did was block me from my source of inner strength.

Step 12, ( key words,"the result" and "we try")
Well, I need to stay sober and there is someone out there that want to sort out their alcohol issues, may as well offer them what was offered to me.
Gets me out of that self pity routine than has has a one way street back to the bar and I don't want to go there, but I don't want to take a drink to stop the inevitable Restlessness, Irritability and Discontentment while sober.
Therefore AA the book is a if not, the Solution to my drinking problem provided I take a few simple steps under the guidance of a sponsor who has that type of recovery and is a living example of it.

All references from the BB of AA were taken from first edition.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:54 AM
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Quitting your job, dropping your sponsor and then producing the solution for the problem of alcoholism for all the coming generations?

Might want to sleep on that.

Coming off a drunk isn't the best time to plan your future, because you're pretty nuts right now. Your sponsor can explain yourself to you if you can bear to get honest with him.
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Old 01-15-2012, 04:20 AM
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I find it far better to say a prayer in times of upheaval than to pick up a drink.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by crisco View Post
It was only temporary solution. VERY TEMPORARY. I did not regret what I did, but the moment was too upsetting for me to maintain a very fragile six month of sobriety and go insane. I tried to remain sober on Friday and I was drive to the point of insanity.
I felt so much anger and rage against myself that I had to drink or go insane killing somebody because I was angry over myself. I had suicidal thoughts. Sobriety provided no ways out in that time. Drinking over that moment would end the misery and I was able to accepted what I did.

Calling another alcoholic might have worked, but only for a time. In my case, the drink numbed all of those feelings and now I am total acceptance of my actions. ...

Too many people in this program have tried to remain sober when their capacity was beyond it. They needed a temporary relapse to grasp ahold of reality.
I do understand the fears and feelings that led to your choosing to drink to "relieve" them.

I made that choice myself this past summer, the tricky bit is that drinking affects decision making and inhibition. I very nearly ended up dead of an overdose.

For many people choosing to drink in a situation like yours could lead to death rather than clarity. That is why many of us choose to get sober, because we realize that for us, drinking when we feel overwhelmed has become counter productive. We know we MUST find another way, or we will die.

I am glad that you made it through your situation. But I disagree with your statement of too many people having remained sober when their capacity was beyond it. I think, if we find ourselves beyond our capacity to manage on our own, we seek help that addresses the situation, and for addicts, drinking is NOT help. I've checked myself into psych wards a few times when I knew I was beyond my capacity to manage. There are options.

Killing ourselves, someone else are not necessary, there are options other than drinking. I cannot in honesty ever suggest an addict return to their DOC. But I do know that sometimes, when overwhelmed we truly cannot see all of our options. This is why I feel it is critical that we come up with a plan B, plan C and plan D. So when we start feeling overwhelmed we already have an action plan that does not involve drinking or using.

I have relapsed for the exact reasons you state above, so I truly do understand the feelings and reason you made the choice you did. I now fully understand that it is critical for me to have action plans established.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by crisco View Post
I am not asking for more help to the problem. I asking forless help to my problems because I am too needy. I am a drain to my sponsor so I should dump him and that I become my own sponsor. I have failed too many times in this program for somebody to sponsor so I need to sponsor myself until I get over six months, I need less help and more will power to do things my own.
Reading this gets me to wondering. I am not suggesting you dump AA, but from what you say here, you might want to investigate some other recovery programs.

AA is based on putting self will down, conceding to the program and a sponsor is very strongly suggested, lest the alcoholic go their own way and get lost.

There are recovery programs that work on the premise that addicts can use their own will, strengths and abilities to get and stay sober.

You might want to look at AVRT, SMART, and Rational Recovery and see if their approach feels right to you.

For some addicts conceding defeat, putting down self will and submitting totally to a program IS the only way they can get and maintain sobriety. I do not know how much you have been able to put yourself into the program of AA, you might not be finding success there because you didn't truly give yourself up to the program, or you might not be finding success there because it is not the program for you.

For alcoholics, drinking is never a real solution, but there are a variety of real solutions available. Glad you are here searching and investigating. You express determination and intent to get sober, there is no reason that you should not achieve that goal.
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:34 AM
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One thing I hear you saying is that you deserve to be beaten up by yourself thoroughly. Either because you messed up at work, or because AA didn't work well enough for you, or you didn't work for AA, or you let down your sponsor, or...

I believe that truly loving oneself is very hard for many alcoholics (many humans generally). A lot of our weird behavior comes out of this fact, where we feel we deserve to suffer, to fail, to be held in contempt, to be shamed, to be beaten. We are ashamed of ourselves and hide, and punish ourselves with whips of mental self-abuse.

Where does this come from? We aren't born like this. I don't know. BUT:

The important thing is to fall in love with yourself. Not society's definition of what you should be, but you as you are, in your very truth. How would you treat yourself if you were in complete admiration of the miracle that is you? You wouldn't drink poison, or seek to be comatose...

One thing we did in my rehab group was (in connection with one of the steps in our workbook), think about childhood and how our earliest emotions were received by the adult world. Many of us remembered a big angry NO, or hundreds of them, or violence, or shaming. The patterns are laid down early. Not to blame parents but given the number of messed-up people walking around we're doin' it wrong!

Just a few thoughts about the self-criticism I heard in your post - give yourself a break. You are a treasure, and your own best treasure. Treat yourself like the precious thing you really are, and don't let anyone (yourself first of all) talk to you that way.

Hope you are OK today.
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Old 01-15-2012, 05:40 PM
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Well, it's in today's Daily Reflections, (Jan 16) about that essential rock bottom, and the why it so.
But to be a bit more open and non exclusive, these rock bottoms we have in life in general are those turning points in life. It just happens to be the alcoholic's rock bottom is a real crash scenario where there is literally no where else to go.
Either keep drinking or do something else. Goes way back to the basic of basic, and that is talk to another alcoholic, preferably one that has some experience in sobriety and probably shrug like I do and pray!
There is nothing left to at that point of a drinking journey when all is lost except for a few life essentials.
Back then in 1935, what were the options? Same as today, alcohol has not changed in chemical structure and nature, so why should a proven solution be changed?
Usually it's the drinker's perception and direction that needs to change.
Self Centredness is a fair place to start to sort it out.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by crisco View Post
It is better to drink for a moment and regain your sanity, than give up your sanity and go insane.
Sorry I can't offer any help here....This is where I stopped reading.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by crisco View Post

Once you drink over a job, it is time to leave that job. My job has not provide me happiness or has provided my employer with the performance that they deserve.
Uh, I'd say if you drink over a job you need to crack down on figuring out how it is you are going to stay sober...I would not say it is time to leave that job. You're not going to get much happiness from a job until you get your life and drinking problem in order, period.

You sound like you are very much in denial. Worry less about saving the world and worry more on saving yourself. I also cannot relate to jumping from not being sober to wanting to promote SMART recovery. Have you even been seen by a psychiatirst? I am no medical professional, but this screams Bipolar Disorder to me.
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:57 AM
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As long as alcohol is the solution, it will be sought. Then the delusional thinking continues. When alcohol stops being the solution, there are other solutions.

Best wishes on staying stopped!
sugarbear1 is offline  
Old 01-16-2012, 09:21 AM
  # 19 (permalink)  
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There isnt any problem you cant make worse by drinking. Believe me I tried. Just sayin...
stugotz is offline  
Old 01-16-2012, 09:37 AM
  # 20 (permalink)  
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Crisco, please get some help. Your messages on here are full of delusions, depression, and anxiety. Nobody online can help you with these, talk to your doctor, please.
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