Phmdyw

Hi All,

I've been sober for quite a while now. I've always been that woman who has "girl cliques" directed at me. It has always been incredibly harmful to my self-esteem. I believe this is due to the fact that I am attractive, intelligent, and have a lot going for me - but as the family scapegoat I also have a huge vulnerability about me which leaves me open to this type of behavior.

Usually the way it's done is by "subtle, elusive, passive-aggressive" cross-talk in meetings after I've had my turn sharing. The things that are said are immensely hurtful and everyone knows they're directed at me. These women go right for the jugular. They say things that are meant to be highly discouraging and devastating to my self-esteem. I know they are looking for relief from their own unresolved issues. I have literally had almost entire meetings do this to me after I speak and it is a way for the women to feel "united". I can be literally hungover for weeks after it's done and it's slowly brought me to a place where my health and emotional well-being are suffering.

I work very hard on myself and have a solid program of recovery. I work very hard to accept them. I've prayed and prayed but overall it's too much for me to handle. I never hurt anyone back. I don't do anything to bring it on. I'm not stuck-up, I have a huge loving heart. I don't want to speak up because they'd know they're affecting me, but they must know it anyway. I'm getting angrier and angrier and as we know resentment has the power to kill. It's affecting all my other relationships in the world.

I know AA isn't the healthiest place in the world but I wonder if it's time fight back. I want to make an example of one person to show everyone not to f*ck with me.

I have no trust left. I am ready to leave AA. I believe that people are suffering worst than ever in AA today because the world is a tougher place than ever, but I no longer want to bear the brunt of this. How can people do this to each other? Am I in the wrong fellowship? As the family scapegoat do I belong in Alanon? I'm a double-winner and maybe I'm throwing myself into the tiger Pit by being in AA? I worry that l'll get emotionally sick if I allow myself to be pished out of AA. I need to try to stay in the solution and the 12 steps.

Any advice?

Sunny27

Hi there

Speaking up is not about letting them know they are getting at you, it is about standing up for who you are and rightly so.

I am not the most outspoken person, but I would pull them up on it.

Can you give me an example of the things they say. I have never been to an AA meeting, but I post a lot on Personal Issues and Relationships forums and think I may be able to help.

Sunny x

SSIL75

I too think examples would be helpful. I'm having a hard time understanding what's going on and wonder if maybe your perception is off?

Sugah

I've seen this kind of subculture within AA, and it's that--a subculture, an anomaly, usually confined to one particular group or small geographic area.

I married a man I met in AA, and his home group was a couple of towns over from mine. I started visiting his home group, which I thought at first met twice a week at the same church. The vibe was very different in those two meetings. At one, I felt very welcomed. At the other, not so much. Most of the women who attended that meeting were distant from me at best and catty at worst. What I discovered was that the first was his home group and the second was another group entirely--and that one of the women, sober a handful of years, had "picked him out" for one of her sponsees when she made a year. He was completely unaware, of course! The longer I stuck around, the more I realized that this one woman had built her own little sponsorship family, and she was passing along a very twisted message to the ladies she worked with. I've heard about a man in another group who does essentially the same thing.

Eventually, I learned to steer clear of that group. The sponsor (ringleader?) never attended groups where she didn't have what she perceived as status, but her sponsees occasionally did. I made my husband's home group my own after we were married, and when I'd run into one of these sponsees there, I greeted them as warmly as I would anyone else--even the one who felt "cheated" because I "got to" my husband first (I'm not reading minds; she told me this directly). Away from their sponsor, some of them did see a different kind of recovery, got new sponsors, and got better. Others got drunk.

I'm sharing this as a roundabout way of asking: how large is your AA life? Are you going to the same meeting or meetings all the time? Are you involved in a home group and in service? Do you have a sponsor, and if so, what does she say?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

SteppingItUp

Precious and Irreplaceable Phmdyw,

I recognize this train of thinking because I have lived through this pattern myself. The bottom line is that it will do no good for a real alcoholic. As it has been said, "Poor me, poor me, pour me a drink...."

The Big Book tells me this:

The great news is that I have come to the other side with a totally new pair of glasses, and so much of my freedom is linked to this: I can see that I was wrong.

I needed to be able to stop playing the victim to get well, but I couldn't see how to do that by myself. I would also have taken great offense to the idea that I was being self-pitying or a victim in my life. I genuinely thought all of these other people were to blame for my struggles. My thinker was sick. The "I'll show them!" method just got me sicker and sicker. I knew my resentments were destroying me, but all of my desperate attempts to wish them away proved to be futile. This applies just as much when we're sober as it does when we're drinking.

I needed to be able to take my own inventory and put the loving care and direction of the God of my understanding beyond any human power. As it's written, "Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job--wife or no wife--we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place de- pendence upon other people ahead of dependence on God."

Well thank goodness it's not all about my spouse, my job, my boss, my doctor, my mother, my father, my sister, my teacher or my neighbor because I can't change them. However, what I can change, through a simple spiritual course of action, is myself, which just happens to include my entire experience of life. In fact, that is exactly what has been happening with me, and the results are magnificent.

I believe that I am living a miracle, which has come through the grace of this Higher Power. If our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us, then what would I be doing if I did anything but love and serve God's children? Axial change out of self sets us free.

Finding a Big Book thumping sponsor that took me through all 12 steps straight out of our basic text transformed my life. If you want what I'm talking about, I suggest you do the same.

As a woman in the rooms, I wish you an enormous amount of love, goodness and healing. Don't let an alcoholic mind walk you out that door. We are in fellowship together, so if there is ever anything I can do to help, feel free to get in touch.

Much love,

SIU



BB Quotes 1st Ed.

Hopeworks

Meetings are all different and just like all cultural communities take on a culture of its leadership... especially open meetings.

In our life we always seek out big book, step and speaker meetings where statistically you are more likely to find people who are serious about the solution and not the problem.

Remember that we are all broken but some of us are more broken than others... stick close to those who are trying to get well emotionally, spiritually and every other way. Love those that are still blinded by their own selfishness and stinkin' thinkin'...

There are GREAT people out there in meetings and it is easy to find them if you take the time to look hard enough and long enough... it is so very, very worth it.

Keep us posted.

dawnrunner

Great post SteppingItUp!!!!

One to read and re-read.

Terminally Unique

I am not a woman, but in my experience, such people naturally work in packs to wear others down. An environment such as the one you are in tilts things in their favor, particularly if you've shared your vulnerabilities. There is a way to survive in such an environment, which is to become like a mad dog, too dangerous to be bothered. It takes a certain kind of temperament to be able to pull that off, however, and I do not recommend this. Sickness invariably feeds on itself, and you would probably be better off leaving that particular group.

BackToSquareOne

Your post brought to mind this old Ani Difranco song :

Here's the lyrics : ANI DIFRANCO LYRICS - 32 Flavors

Here's the song : Ani DiFranco - 32 Flavors (HQ) - YouTube

onlythetruth

I am a woman and have seen the behavior you describe--not just at AA meetings, either, although AA meetings are an especially bad place for such behavior to take place due to the "No Crosstalk" rule. That rule can result in what you describe: the "Covert Nasty Share" where people say awful things right to your face, but without using your name--and you feel like you're trapped and can't defend yourself.

I would absolutely not listen to anyone who throws the "if you are upset, something is the matter with YOU" notion your way. It is normal to be upset at being bullied, which is exactly what is happening. Something would be wrong with you if you WEREN'T upset, and you are not "playing the victim" when you complain.

Now, you can pray for these people until the next millennium, and you can try to accept that they are sick, and maybe you should do all those things--that's up to you--but none of that will get the behavior to stop. Therefore, if you care about your emotional health, you would probably do best to leave that meeting and never return (obviously, go to meetings your tormentors don't attend).

On your way out the door, though, I'll suggest to you that the Covert Nasty Share method is a game that two can play. At the last meeting you attend, you can tell the group that you won't be back, because certain people have chosen to bully you. Feel free to embellish--describe the behavior in no uncertain terms while looking at the people involved. Note that this has affected your recovery and what a shame it is that in a spiritual fellowship you have been subjected to such abuse. If others try the "don't take my inventory" game, then get up and leave.

Do not use this situation as an excuse to drink, even if you do decide to leave AA altogether. But I'm sure you already know that!

aasharon90

I, for myself, am in AA for me. If i go to a
meeting, i try to focus on the meeting itself
and not the social aspect of it. I know that
the fellowship is important so I wont feel
alone in my recovery, but Im not into the
getting too close with folks. What I mean
is, its ok to say hellos and how r u and
what's going on kinda thing but for me, i
go to a meeting to get what i need recovery
wise to take home with me and use in my
everyday life.

I live an honest happily sober married life
at home with my husband and the rest is
the world around me.

All my life, ive lived with people i thought
I could trust, where love was suppose to be,
worked with people i trusted, cared about,
got close to people to only be hurt. To treat
others the way you'd what to be treated, with
kindness to only be stabbed in the back.

I learned in recovery to accept people, places,
and things just the way they are suppose to be
and that I cant change any of those situation no
matter how hard I try.

Today I go about my business, focus on my
own recovery, my own marriage and take care
of me. My recovery requires me to share my
own ESH with others that are still suffering
with addiction. I do that to the best of my ability
even if its right here in my home in front of my
computer. If this helps me stay sober one more
day for the past 21 yrs, then it must be working
for me.

And I dont have to physically get close to people.

If negative emotions come into play then I can
easily turn off my computer or click out of this site.

For me i will go to any lengths i need to go in order
to stay sober and guard it with all I have, because
being sober means everything to me.

It's That Important.

Phmdyw

Perhaps only the other Adult Children and Codependents will identify with this, but to say I am "wrong" is very black and white thinking. The type of behavior I dealt with causes us to become murderers against our own fellows who God brought into AA, and that's the worst crime we can commit. It's as bad as when a man is predatory towards a woman in the rooms. The solution to it is really the angry man prayer in the big book - I don't like their symptoms or the way they affect me, but I ask God to help me have patience, tolerance and pity. It says we would not hurt people like this so I won't fight back. Behaving like them would only hurt myself which is what they're doing to themselves without knowing it. Whenever we try to get relief from unresolved issues by hurting others, we don't grow, and so our own behavior sets in motion trains of circumstances we feel we don't deserve. I see this happen to people like them all the time and many drink again and die.

I want the growth.

It is NOT going to stop. AA is not the healthiest place in the world, and it's definitely time for me to spread my wings a little again and get out in the world and have some fun, too.

This meeting is a very unhealthy excuse for a "solution-based" meeting and was "by invitation only" until recently. I believe there is fear around new people coming in now, unless it's someone brand new sober or not thru the steps who doesn't cause them to feel intimidated. We are funny people, aren't we?!

So I have written it out, talked it out with someone, and am praying. It's not about their faces or them, they're not that powerful and there are plenty of people like this in the world. Thank God I have people to work with and I carry the message.

There are much healthier meetings of this sort where people have matured spiritually and I am more used to those anyway.

Whenever you have a bunch of sociopaths in with a codependent who's being vulnerable, the sociopath will always get abused. Keeping myself around healthy people is of the utmost importance - we all deserve that.

Thanks all.

Phmdyw

I meant to write in the last sentence that the "codependent" will always get abused.

WakeUp

A group in my area was having issues similar to what the OP described. That group did a group inventory that was moderated by someone outside of the group. It revealed a lot to the members of the group and they got to see their group character defects, and it seems they've been working on changing.

soberlicious

hahaaaa an AA meeting by invitation only? I thought I had heard it all LOL

I have personally been the brunt of the "mean girl" mentality too, in the rooms and out in the world. Honestly I don't mean to sound flip about it...I'm an ACOA as well, but people only have the power I give them. Years of therapy helped me with this, but when I internalized it and was able to practice it I cannot tell you the freedom I experienced.

That said, I also don't waste time in places or with people who are not good for me. Ditch the meeting. There are lots of women who are down to earth, confident, healthy, and don't feel threatened by others success and would be true sisters in recovery. Best to you!

AndreTT

I never went to an AA meeting in my life and I'm planning to go someday. I'm quite shocked by this. Isn't that a break of the Third Tradition??

WakeUp

You bet your bottom it is Andre!

Phmdyw

Not too harsh at all to say we only give people the power we give them. It's very true. I want the truth, I'm just tired of this kind of sh*t. I have just begun ACA and Alanon Adult Child meetings. Some of us have a vulnerability about us which leaves us open to this type of thing that the EGO MONGERS will use any chance they get. They're usually suffering with the same stuff, they've just chosen a shortcut that doesn't work I could probably also use a therapist too for codependency/trauma, perhaps even EMDR. Maybe I'll get on that today.

What I do love about this is the more experience I have to offer as I continue with this journey and get through each difficult thing. I know I sound upset today but within a week I'll be back to myself again with more growth, never giving up.

onlythetruth

I'm afraid if you start thinking about all the common AA practices that violate the traditions, you'll end up with a good-sized list. TV ads promoting the program clearly violate the 11th tradition, for example, as does the practice of soliciting for new members among the legal and judicial communities.

But I digress.

laurie6781

(((((Phmdyw)))))

I will share from my experience and my experience only.

Sad to say this still happens in AA as it happens in 'life in general.' There will always be 'people' like you have encountered.

When I arrived at AA in June of '81 I had a distinct 'hate' for women. In my mind they were 'back stabbing biotches' based on my 36 years of living, 22 of it as an alcoholic and all of it as a child of alcoholic(s). The lady I chose as my sponsor was 'older' than me, but not old enough to be my 'mother' more like an older sister with 16 years of recovery under her belt and a hubby who was also in AA.

For my first 6 months she kept trying to get me to go to a 'women's meeting' and I kept procrastinating and 'digging in my heels.' I finally told her why at about 6 months or so, or at least 'my perception' of 'why.' She sat me down, and first of all assured me the meeting she wanted to take me to where women her age or older, and they WOULD NOT JUDGE ME. She was so right, and I can honestly say those women SAVED MY AZZ many times. Not the women in the the 'general meetings', the women in my 'Woman's Meeting.'

I do understand totally!!!! I was 36, and by 6 months, was once again 'looking pretty damn good' and all the 'some are sicker than others' women were trying to get their 'digs' in. But something else was happening to me. I was taking to heart:

"what other people think of me is none of my business, what I and HP think of me is."

Made a big difference. I was able to start seeing that these 'ladies' (I use the term very loosely, lol) that were jealous, spiteful, demeaning, were in fact part of the groups of:

'some are sicker than others.'

I slowly developed a 'group' of friends and acquaintances, both female and male, some of them long time friends of my sponsor and her hubby, and those folks who were 'spiteful, demeaning, hateful, not nice' just didn't matter any more.

At about 15 months or so one of the Biotch's in a meeting looked at me and said,

''you are turning into another Beverly D."

My response, was

'THANK YOU.'

And, some in the meeting actually clapped. It was then I knew for sure, I was on the correct path for this Alkie.

I have been sober and clean continuously since 6-7-1981 and I have to say, PLEASE, PLEASE do not let some really sick people KEEP YOU from finding the joys of sobriety and a WONDERFUL life that you would never have expected to find.

Love and hugs,