Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3229202)
If by cure we mean a return to health and independent living, free from alcohol, there certainly is a cure. |
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
(Post 3229257)
If you were shipwrecked on an island with no place to buy booze would you still be an alcoholic? |
Originally Posted by Charon
(Post 3232201)
Nope - remission only. One sip and the disease is totally back. There is a huge difference between cured and in remission.
Originally Posted by Charon
(Post 3232201)
Cured would mean that one would no longer be an alcoholic and woulld be able to drink normally. Simply not going to happen for any alcoholic.
Originally Posted by Charon
(Post 3232201)
You might think I'm splitting hairs or engaging in semantics - I assure you I am not. Precise thinking is absolutely essential to defeat the beast in our heads. Cured plays into the beast's hand - quite simply, I'm definitely not going there. I can live with remission - thinking I'm cured would be a death sentence. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3232212)
I will actually go even further than to say that I am "cured" and say that I am not an alcoholic, and therefore do not need a cure. |
I'm reminded of Cool Hand Luke... what we got here is a failure to communicate.... Each of us has our own beliefs and own ways of interpreting the recovery journey. Let's try and be respectful and perhaps even agree to disagree? D |
Originally Posted by Charon
(Post 3232226)
I hope your higher power can, at some point, overcome your arrogance. My Zuni faith tells me to pray for you even more than myself - that is counter intuitive but I will offer what I can. What you call arrogance I call a higher standard. I believe in everyone's capacity to fully and permanently recover from addiction, even if they do not believe it themselves. In our society, addicted people are regarded as diseased sickos, walking time-bombs, discriminated against by the courts and other social agencies. A large reason for this is the much lower standard of tentative sobriety aspired to by many who are seemingly intent on spreading their own insecurity to others, and who consider having no plan to drink entirely sufficient. Therefore, I will state, loudly and clearly, that I do have a plan: I will never drink or use again, and I will never change my mind. I hold myself morally accountable for unconditional lifetime abstinence, cutting myself no slack whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique I believe in everyone's capacity to fully and permanently recover from addiction, even if they do not believe it themselves. "Cured" is a tricky word in this context because there are those who subscribe to the disease model of addiction and those who don't. "Cured" makes the first group uncomfortable, while it isn't even relevant to the second group. So obviously it's gonna bring up some passionate responses. I would agree with TU that there seems to be alot of insecurity/fear surrounding recovery. Addiction is serious and in my opinion the fear based mentality often seen in the recovery industry is not helpful in overcoming addiction, in fact the opposite. |
Originally Posted by soberlicious
(Post 3232379)
Addiction is serious and in my opinion the fear based mentality often seen in the recovery industry is not helpful in overcoming addiction, in fact the opposite. I think one of the most dangerous ideas I've ever heard is the notion that "the further I am away from my last drink, the closer I am to the next"...what fear-based, defeatist idea! The further I am away from my last drink....the further I am away from my last drink. That's how I see it. |
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
(Post 3233291)
I think one of the most dangerous ideas I've ever heard is the notion that "the further I am away from my last drink, the closer I am to the next"...what fear-based, defeatist idea! I don't quite see it that way, and I still agree though that alcoholism is an illness of a kind that can not be cured with common science, but can be successfully treated with a pyschic solution which keeps the alcoholism in remission. The living problems associated with the alcoholism are thereafter removed and will not return contigent on the continuing quality of the pyschic solution. My last alcoholic drink was back in 1981. I'm no closer today or tomorrow to that next drink then I was the same day I quit. I like to keep things simple and understandable, and I don't need fear of alcoholism running my life anymore to stop me from drinking. My detox, rehab stay, gestalt therapy, and living the AA program provided me with the required pyschic solution to freely live a fearless sober life yesterday, today, and tomorrow. |
I find it interesting that I consistently misspelled psychic in the above post, lol. |
To be sure, fear has served an indispensible role in helping get many an alcoholic sober. So, I don't mind hearing a little fear in the words of a person who has just a few days/weeks of sobriety under his/her belt. With that said, I believe fear has a much less enduring role insofar as long-term sobriety is concerned. |
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
(Post 3234034)
Yeah, its a dumb dangerous motto. The idea is alcoholism always wants a drink, and so its inevitable that the alcoholic will take that drink unless the alcoholic experiences an intervention ie sobriety. So then sobriety offers only a reprieve from that next drink. And so a miracle of remission keeps the alcoholism from taking that next drink to the ongoing benefit of the alcoholic. Yeah, okay. I don't quite see it that way, and I still agree though that alcoholism is an illness of a kind that can not be cured with common science, but can be successfully treated with a pyschic solution which keeps the alcoholism in remission. The living problems associated with the alcoholism are thereafter removed and will not return contigent on the continuing quality of the pyschic solution. My last alcoholic drink was back in 1981. I'm no closer today or tomorrow to that next drink then I was the same day I quit. I like to keep things simple and understandable, and I don't need fear of alcoholism running my life anymore to stop me from drinking. My detox, rehab stay, gestalt therapy, and living the AA program provided me with the required pyschic solution to freely live a fearless sober life yesterday, today, and tomorrow. blessings zb |
Originally Posted by Ranger
(Post 3234126)
To be sure, fear has served an indispensible role in helping get many an alcoholic sober. So, I don't mind hearing a little fear in the words of a person who has just a few days/weeks of sobriety under his/her belt. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3235109)
practically proves the state of their own tentative, uncertain, on-the-edge-of-relapse sobriety. |
Originally Posted by Sapling
(Post 3235116)
I'd rather be in that state..Then believing I'm cured. I'm one drink away from a drunk.....I have just as much the alcoholic mind as I had when I started the journey I am on...And I always will have it. I can never forget that. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3235109)
...I consider anyone who feels inclined to disclose how much "sober time" they have without me asking first, immediately suspect. Their need to per-emptively establish "credibility" in such a way practically proves the state of their own tentative, uncertain, on-the-edge-of-relapse sobriety. Intentionally establishing credibility to get the attention of the listener. Have you ever found it useful to elucidate the breadth of your knowlege base when attempting to sell your opinions to others? General insecurity. Simply put, some people are socially awkward and feel the need to wear all manner of credentials on their sleeves. |
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
(Post 3235109)
This is true, and I agree. That said, I consider anyone who feels inclined to disclose how much "sober time" they have without me asking first, immediately suspect. Their need to per-emptively establish "credibility" in such a way practically proves the state of their own tentative, uncertain, on-the-edge-of-relapse sobriety. My thinking has changed on the subject though. One, I like to know that getting to X, Y, or Z years is possible, especially when it's evident that the person talking isn't working a "perfect program" anymore than I am. Two, it's helpful (for me) to hear that even the folks with 20, 30 or 40 years still have difficulties practicing spiritual principles from time to time (I've got this thing sometimes about wanting to get everything perfect). Three, It helps me gauge how I'm going to respond to a question or a comment - how I talk to someone who's new in recovery and is still unfamiliar with the process is different from how I'd speak to someone with more time and experience. And four, If I'm going to learn something new to me, you better believe I'm going to want the best help or coach I can find. I'm going to want someone with a lot of experience and who's been successful - that's just using common sense. |
Originally Posted by Sapling ...I'm one drink away from a drunk.....I have just as much the alcoholic mind as I had when I started the journey I am on...And I always will have it. I can never forget that.
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique You may rest assured that I know this, but I nevertheless appreciate the honesty. More than a few would, well, flat out lie and suggest otherwise, thinking I'd be impressed. Well, in all honesty, my alcoholic mind is in a state of remission. Asleep. Frozen. Unpowered. Ignored. Turned Off.... well, you get the idea. Speaking for myself, if my alcoholic mind was active and awake, same as when I started quitting getting drunk back when, guess what I would be doing?! Sure, there is some time required to change out my alcoholic mind for a sober mind, but that was getting done in the first year of my sobriety. For the next few years, sometimes things got complicated, and my alcoholic mind would comeback online, and my sobriety would put it back into the twilight zone where it belongs. It's been over thirty years.... and if I had to had deal with an alcoholic mind all those years, I absolutely would have been drunk decades ago... in fact within the first year, you know. So really?! You guys are still gonna be dealing with the alcoholic mind while being sober for the rest of your sober lives??!! Cheese 'n crackers! Seriously, no problemo, live and let live. Its a journey, not a destination, right? |
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
(Post 3235504)
Speaking for myself, if my alcoholic mind was active and awake, same as when I started quitting getting drunk back when, guess what I would be doing?! Really, it gets so much easier and better. I don't worry about alcohol and whether or not I am gonna drink it... I'm not... I worry about how my work is, how my kids, now adults, are doing, what's my relationship with God and my loved ones like? Sure there are bad days... my wife has them too, and she's not alcoholic! |
It may be de-activated...But it's still there....I don't fight it...Just like to know it's there. |
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