Ranger

Not so much as I am saying both are examples of mentally deranged behavior.

The point—apparently not well made—is that for an alcoholic, picking back up is a form of insanity. As far as I’m concerned, the frequency of this action is different conversation altogether and an academic one at that.

Hmmm...I expected this notion might be more disagreeable with the RR crowd than AA enthusiasts.

gaffo

Intellectualizing this is dangerous to me. There is only one reason I've broken my resolutions--I opened a beer and drank it. If I don't do that (except in my annoying AV dreams) I'm okay for the moment.

Terminally Unique

Except that langkah is AA, although he does have more familiarity with other modalities than your typical AA. He's trying to establish that deranged behavior (drinking again) is common in alcoholics, and presumably, inevitable if someone makes a resolution not to.

Mark75

I kinda like Keith's point about taking action versus ironclad resolutions.

I never really felt like my own resolution was "ironclad"... in fact, in AA speak... "just don't drink, just for today" my interpretation to this is that when not ever drinking again, ironclad, freaks me out, I just bring it back to today.

Now, I am beyond not drinking just for today, but it was an enormously helpful tool early on... But I don't worry too much about ironclad resolutions. I just try to stay on the beam, spiritually speaking. That's more reliable anyway, than any ironclad resolution I can make.

soberlicious

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Why does it have to be one "versus" the other? For me, action is part of the ironclad resolution and the ironclad resolution is part of the action.

"Ironclad resolutions" and foxhole prayers are two entirely different things.

langkah

'He's trying to establish that deranged behavior (drinking again) is common in alcoholics, and presumably, inevitable if someone makes a resolution not to.'

I think we can agree it sure happens a whole hellova lot.

Because this thing we have operates in a way that places it beyond where our desires can change or affect it, if someone makes a resolution or makes a interior commitment, or a public solemn pledge without lingering reservations or does not do any these things, or does all these things there's no difference.

Deciding to make it go away and telling it to go away doesn't make it go away, and those who assure themselves it has in fact gone away and tell their friends and neighbors they are very sure it's gone for good most often find otherwise.

You never observed or experienced that before?

Let me see if I can do the substitution/presume line as you did...seems you're trying to deny you have seen this approach fail for practically everyone for a very long time in different recovery modalities, and despite that still presume yourself personally exempt from failure and you feel comfortable in assuring friends and neighbors that it's really gone away this time, unlike those other times.

Hey, I've nothing against hope as a solution for alcoholism. As far back as I can find people have hoped this time was different because they really, really wanted it to be different than all those other times and promised themselves and people they cared for it certainly and without a doubt would be.

Newcomers declaring they are treating their alcoholism with hope is like listening to a radio station that plays but one old record that is scratched too badly to allow it to play through and must be continually restarted.

You can imagine how exciting it is to hear a newcomer saying they actually did something. It's like someone finally snuck in a different song. It's so cool I don't mind waiting very long spaces for it.

Mark75

Well, yea I guess I see your point, soberlicious, and can't disagree. There may not be much difference or inherent superiority of one way or another. I was just sharing my own experience. Ironclad resolutions never worked for me.

Terminally Unique

Of course I have observed this, and experienced it, but what does that prove? I no longer presume it has "gone away" though, and I fully expect that even 10, 20, 30, or 40 years from now, I will still have an annoying voice in my head telling me that it might be a good idea to have just one drink.

I'm aware that some people need to try and undermine the confidence of others in order to justify their own failures, but it won't work on me. I have seen "swearing off" fail for people, yes, but you are mistaken about one very important thing. Unlike those people, who want the desire (or "obsession," if you prefer) to go away in order to abstain, so that they can then follow the path of least resistance, I don't presume that the desire has gone away, or that it ever will go away. Big, gigantic, astronomical difference.

I am beyond hope, langkah. I absolutely know that unless someone puts a gun to my head and says "drink or eat a bullet," in which case survival itself would take precedence, that I will never drink again.

Terminally Unique

I follow your logic, but I would argue that it doesn't take any "action" at all in order to not do something (drink alcohol). Strictly speaking, it takes inaction.

soberlicious

Of course you would LOL...and thank goodness for that as it keeps it interesting!

and I would argue that employing inaction is actually taking action...

onlythetruth

I certainly don't have a crystal ball: nobody does.

But I know that I'm not going to drink. Or smoke. Or make myself throw up. Or sleep with my ex-husband. Or do any of the things that are theoretically possible for me to do, but which I've left in the rear view mirror for a good reason.

RobbyRobot

And I would argue that to actually succeed in my not drinking that next drink takes responsible sober action by me personally, each and every day, for the rest of my natural life, otherwise personal inaction will absolutely get me back to drinking.

Isn't it grand what we can do with words, ideas, perspectives, and experience respectively!

Interesting thread. Good times!

Terminally Unique

Yeah, I know, just couldn't resist. Certainly, the effort I put into learning AVRT could be considered action, since it didn't "just happen" all on its own.

BackToSquareOne

I think it's great that people have different opinions, it gives you the opportunity to look at things from all sides and draw your own conclusions. If we agreed on everything we would be a bunch of nodding heads and there would be no purpose for a discussion forum.

For example everyones "Final Bottom" was their last one but by the same token it could always get worse. Until you draw your last breath you don't know that for a fact. By the same token if I make the claim that I know for a fact that I'll never drink or use drugs again or violate my diet or exercise program or do any number of things again, then, by my logic I'm assuming I'm infallible. It's not the assumption that allows you to achieve those things as much as it is the course of action that makes it possible. Do the best laid schemes of mice and men ever go awry?

RobbyRobot

Not really about infallibility. There are lot's of things I, and everyone else too, have done previously but will never do again. Like the experience of the loss of our respective virginity.

Other examples come to mind as well.

Drinking alcoholically is simply something that has already been by me, and it has no future not because i'm infallible, but because I don't drink alcohol. Its really that simple. And I don't drink alcoholically anymore because my alcoholism illness has been permanently arrested by my spiritual sobriety and that in turn is guaranteed by my living an ongoing daily spiritual maintenance. No way I'm ever gunna get drunk anymore. There, I said it again.

There are many things I no longer do anymore. One only has to think on it and somethings (experiences) simply will not happen again, and will not happen because of choice, not infallibility.

Finally, if I was infallible, logic would actually dictate that I would necessarily be infallible in all things of my doing, when in fact I am infallible in none of what I do. And for that, I'm grateful, and humbled.

Threshold

My number one is that I made my resolution to quit while I was feeling the consequences of using, rather than the incentive to use. I never vowed to not use again when I was faced with a situation I desperately sought to mentally hide from. Nope, at those times I was all "well, just one more time, it's better than the alternative, next time I'll have a plan to deal with this that doesn't involve using"

My resolutions wore off with the hang over, or what ever other consequences I was experiencing.

My number two reason was that I didn't want to quite using, I just wanted to avoid the consequences. So I was lying to myself, saying "I quit" but really all I was trying to do was to find a way to skirt paying the piper. And when I thought I'd found a clever way, then I suddenly had no reason to actually quit.

My resolutions only stick when they are based firmly on reality. I accept that there is no way, in this Universe, for me to use without consequences. And that I must find a purposeful alternative to using in situations when emotions seem overwhelming.

Until I find something that works when my chips are raining down all around me...I'll choose to use. When I've identified that something, and gotten handy with it, there is no more incentive to use.

I have found that I have to practice using those alternatives before the crap hits the fan, so that I'll be ready to go when it does hit.

If I treat my addiction as an issue ONLY when I am abusing substances and processes, I get nowhere. I have to realize it's a 24/7 issue, and deal with it when I'm strong, not only when I am weak.

onlythetruth

I don't think this has anything to do with infallibility, because it is absolutely possible to know FOR A FACT that one will never do certain things, even things one has previously done. Sleeping with my ex is a good example. We are divorced. I am no longer married to him. In fact, we are both married to other people now. So, although it is theoretically possible for me to sleep with him again, neither of us being dead yet, I really do know for a fact that I will never again sleep with him.

Drinking is similar. I am every bit as divorced from that as I am from my ex-husband. I've "divorced" drinking, and am committed to an entirely different lifestyle. Therefore, although it is theoretically possible for me to drink again, the reality is that I'm not going to do so, and I don't see any point in attempting to convince myself otherwise.