keithj

AA has a single program of recovery, laid out specifically and precisely in the BB. When someone shares with you their own ideas about alcoholism and sobriety, they are not necessarily sharing the AA program.

That said, we all have a unique story of what we were like, what happened, and what we are like now. In sharing that unique story, most of find that we aren't all that unique after all. In fact, we all share in common that 'phenomenon of craving' (I can't quit once I start) after the first drink or two, and the mental obsession (I can't stay stopped once I'm stopped). Beyond that, the recovered alcoholics in AA have all found a spiritual solution as the result of taking the 12 Steps.

Husky, is it possible that you don't feel that you fit in because you haven't done what the others in the room have done (taken the 12 Steps)? Is it possible that you have excluded yourself because you aren't willing to do what's worked for a couple of million sober alcoholics?

Analyzing the Steps never did much for me, try as I might. Taking the Steps, however, brought about a spiritual awakening, a transformed life, a revolution in my thinking, and many years of contented sobriety.

T5hlP5

Heavy drinker, light drinker, alcoholic, sub-alcoholic, pseudo-alcoholic, kind-of-alcoholic, maybe-but-not-sure-alcoholic, definitely-an-alcoholic-but-don't-care-alcoholic... AHHH!! What's the difference. Alcohol is a deadly drug no matter who you are. It hurts my internal organs and turns me into a suicidal maniac.

DayTrader

Husky, you've got one thing confused.....the heavy drinking vs. the alcoholic (as they're discussed as different "types" of drinkers in the AA Big Book) makes no mention of the alkie being a daily drinker. As a matter of fact, it even states that the "heavy drinker" may actually drink more (amount/frequency) than the alcoholic.

There absolutely is a difference between those who are heavy drinkers and those who are alcoholics.....and that difference hinges around the presence of the 3-fold malady and "choice." My best friend and favorite drinking partner in the whole world drank as much as and as often as, maybe even more than, I did. When he stops, he's ok. He makes some changes to his lifestyle and he's good to go. He's able to just not drink if he wants to and when he's not drinking, life is....well....it's just life - no biggie. For me, neither of those is my reality. I couldn't ever reaaaally "just say no" for long and, during times of abstinence, life wasn't all that rosy - in fact, it got heaver and heavier till I had no choice BUT to drink. So, my buddy would be a heavy drinker and me a real alcoholic. How much one drinks and how often they drink is irrelevant.

My experience as well Keith. And believe me.....it made me mad that I'd actually have to consider DOING the steps even though I was sure they were stupid and even more sure they wouldn't work (since I'd already proven it to myself.....in my head). And being totally honest, there was a small part of me, deep down, that wanted to do the steps, remain sick and then be able to call BS on EVERYTHING in AA. Luckily for me, working the steps doesn't allow such insanity to stick around for too long.

PaperDolls

I'm a binge drinking alcoholic. YOU can call me what ever you want. It doesn't make a sh!t bit of difference to me.

I used to be concerned with what others would think of my "qualifications". It was one of the many excuses I used to stay out of the rooms for a LONG time.

Today, I'm more concerned about how I feel about myself than what others think of me. I used to base my happiness on what other's thought of me. Damn, that wore me out!

There are tons of different personalities in AA (and the world!). Some like to judge others .... may be to make themselves feel better, I don't know. It's true you'll find that sort of thing at many meetings and I'm sorry it's made you uncomfortable. Ignore it. This is serious sh!t. People die everyday from this disease. Don't let anyone try to stop you from saving your life.

If AA isn't for you, as you've said tons of times, move on, try something different.

WakeUp

Pup,
Have you heard the story of how BIll Wilson visited a Buddhist country adn presented the 12 Steps to a monk? The mok looked them over and said, "These are very good, only we would replace the word God with Good."
So, if you're reading the Big Book just replace the word "God" with "Earth Mother Goddess." I'm primarily Buddhist myself, but I just say God in my meeting because it's less syllables.

Dee74

I have removed some posts.

Reminding everyone - lets keep it civil...insults and bickering invariably mean thread closures.

If there's a post you think contravenes our rules - report it - and then let us handle it.
D

recycle

Is there a distinction between a real sex addict and someone who just has a f*cking problem? (Sorry, if Smartass Anonymous ever comes along, I'll be there.) My point was, given the proliferation of 12 step programs for all kinds of obsessions, perhaps the question is "What am I willing to do?

I think for any recovery program to work, you have to be willing to change. In my (limited) AA experience, I had to be willing to put everything on the table. Since I had been willing to give up everything for drinking, it was a simple choice, if not an easy one.

HuskyPup

Oak, thanks. I have been working on the Spiral Steps, only by myself…I joined the ***** group, but not much posting goes on. I’d love it if a real, live group was in my area, though.

I tried posting my Spiral Step progress on a thread here, but got scared, as it seemed like it was being forced into a more tradiational mold, and was on the verge of devolving into bickering. But I will post more, anyway, and just go ahead, come what may. Can't hurt.

I think people get this idea I am not trying, and that kinda upsets me, because I am. And I did try AA, and to change the words like God and He and Him and the verbs to agree, but it was very hard, as the idea of an intervening, purposeful god seemed so embedded, even just beyond changing the words. But thank you, it was nice to hear from you, at this time when I was pondering going back to a few meetings, and trying to muster the strength, after the last experience, and just go and keep myself a bit more distanced.

Anyway, I was just seeking fellowship in recovery, people to be with who will not judge me because I don't follow their exact notion of how to recover…and maybe AA is not this place, I am thinking…they say take what you want and leave the rest, but when I try and do this, I get rejected, and a lot of people get really upset.


Thanks to all who offered suggestions. No Lifering here, a few SMART meetings a distance away, or at nights I work...but not much else in the Baltimore/DC area, really, which seems odd, given what a huge metro area it is.

I think what I find is that I get lonely in recovery, and longing to be with others in recovery, but without the rituals and strictures of what I had experienced before. Nothing against them for those who like repetition and that kind of more rigid, directive structure, just found it was not a good place for me to be honest, and talk about my feelings, and motivations, as time went on.

So what fuels this is a feeling of loneliness in recovery, not of wanting to 'bash' anyone, but reach out for support. Or even hugs. Stuff like that. Warm fuzzies.

TheJungianThing

You're not alone. While our paths might be different, my hunch is they merge together more often than not. What separates us is something that can't be proven. That's it. What I'm sure is in common is the need for a deep psychic change. Best of luck and post your experience with the spiral steps or whatever - it might help someone else.

SlimSlim

Interesting that you raised this question, as I was discussing this with my counselor last week in terms of the medical profession making a distinction between the alcoholic and the alcohol abuser. If you google the terms, you will find plenty of different hits.

Succinctly, the two are defined as:

"What is Alcohol Abuse?
Different from alcoholism, alcohol abuse is the misuse or overuse of alcohol to the detriment of relationships, family life, work and finances.

What is Alcoholism?
Alcoholism is alcohol abuse taken a step further. It is defined by craving alcoholic drinks, a loss of control when drinking, physical dependence upon alcohol and the exhibition of withdrawal symptoms when drinking stops, and a high tolerance to alcohol."

Both represent problematic drinking. In my conversation with my counselor, it was my observation that the distinction really does not make a difference to the individual in the short run, but may make a difference to medical professionals in terms of detox. While the alcoholic probably may never be able to drink again, the alcohol abuser must address the underlying problems which lead to alcohol abuse, otherwise the pattern is bound to repeat itself.

My counselor likes to call any kind of addiction "self abuse" and until we understand and address the reasons for self abuse and find coping strategies, we will continue to self abuse, whether it be with our original addiction of choice or a substitute.

I personally don't like the distinction, especially in early recovery, as it may lead to some inappropriate rationalizations/denial and conclusions that may sabotage recovery. People may tend to classify themselves as alcohol abusers, thus minimizing the negative effects of drinking on their lives, relationships and health.

That's my two cents worth on this topic.

Sugah

A number of years back, I used to hear a lot about the distinction between the heavy drinker and the alcoholic in a certain meeting. A home group member there, a guy with somewhere around twenty years, was disturbed by what he saw as an influx of new members from treatment facilities who, in his view, didn't really belong in AA.

He objected to the language they brought into the rooms with them:
90 meetings in 90 days
Meeting makers make it
Just don't drink and go to meetings
If the only thing I did right today was not pick up a drink, it was a successful day
etc...

He challenged folks to go home and look up the word, juggernaut, in their dictionaries and, in light of it, explain how these rehab suggestions were going to keep them sober.

His biggest caution to us all, however, was the danger in the heavy drinker occupying a seat long enough for a newcomer (who was legitimately alcoholic) to ask him or her to be a sponsor. He figured heavy drinkers only needed a good reason, not the steps, to stay sober, and without a spiritual awakening, without the deflation of the ego, said heavy drinker would say yes--and kill the newcomer. Why? His view had few heavy drinkers willing (or needing) to do the work the real alcoholic needed to do to stay sober (and have a spiritual awakening), therefore having nothing but those rehab slogans to pass along to the newcomer in dire need of spiritual assistance.

A lot of folks didn't like this guy because his delivery sucked. The content, not so much. He was very helpful to the rest of us in that many of the open meetings which had become a discussion forum for the problem of the day became a lot more focused on the steps, on the role of sponsorship, on what to look for in a potential sponsor, on the importance--the critical need--of a spiritual awakening for an alcoholic to stay sober.

HuskyPup, it's already been suggested you look at the criteria in the Big Book and make up your mind yourself. I don't know exactly why you're being interrogated. I've offered one perspective. Perhaps the members of your group are encouraging the humility necessary for you to make your start. What WakeUp posted about the Buddhist monk makes a very important point: The monk had the humility to look for a way that the steps could work for someone like him, not what needed to be changed in the steps before it could work for someone like him. All of us with nontraditional spiritual leanings have had to find our way through that.

Oh -- that old timer moved across the country, but his influence lives on in the meetings I attend. When a newcomer inquires about sponsorship, I suggest: find someone who's had a spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, who's been sponsored herself, and who lives what she talks.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

onlythetruth

HuskyPup:

I hear what you're saying, I really do, and I understand. We are social creatures and it's a great thing to be able to bond with others who are going through a similar experience.

But it can be frustrating to try to bond with people who are going through a similar experience but are approaching it in a very different way than we are. I've tried to find a solution to this myself. As you know, SMART Recovery was, for me, part of that solution, but the even larger piece, at least for me, has been to broaden my support system to include people who haven't had a problem with alcohol, but who have overcome some very serious problem in their own lives. I have been amazed by the commonalities I find with all sorts of others who have been in a dark place of their own and found their way to the light. The capacity of humans to grow and change, and the variety of ways in which they do it, have stunned me.

All of this to say that your support group may exist already, in your own circle, if you look for it. Even if you are the only person in your world who has had an addiction, you are unlikely to be the only one who has "recovered".

freethinking

Well, maybe try and look at it from their point of view....from what I remember, it is strongly suggested in AA that if you don't follow a program you will most likely relapse. So here you are, saying you don't really follow a program, have stayed sober anyway, and are also somehow giving them the impression you didn't drink that much (comparatively). Can you see how this could possibly get people to think you are not an alcoholic in this program while at their meetings?

I am not saying that all people in AA are close-minded. There are close-minded people in any program/way of approaching sobriety. Heck, in the AVRT thread on the Secular Connections board I was told I was "in between binges" because I wasn't making a "Big Plan". So this is not anything that is unique to AA - but it is a common thread (feeling their way has to be followed) for people who firmly believe you need to follow their way to a 'T' to stay sober. Since you are not following their program, can you not see how some might then conclude you are not an alcoholic? Why exactly do you tell them you are not following their program or sharing how much you drank?

Personally, if and when I go back to AA, I would not go in there telling people I don't do a program...it's just mind f*cks some people as far as I am concerned. However my point is, I think you have gotten that reaction because you are in AA, not running their program (that keeps them sober), and some people can't make sense of it. I think this is actually very expected and I'd try and look at it from their point of view.

**To answer your original question, I do not think an alcoholic is determined by how much they drank. I think it's determined by ones desire to stop drinking and their inability to do so.

miamifella

Sapling-- Unfortunately people are turned away from AA and other 12-step groups. I myself was told to go out and drink and use until I hit a real bottom. I have heard this said to a lot of people.

Of course, the people saying this have no real authority to do so. But it does not stop them from saying this anyway.

Sapling

They kind of say that in the BB...If it's in the book...It's AA.
Pg 31-32


We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.

miamifella

I think that what the BB says is a bit different than telling someone that they need to wait until they trash a career, destroy a marriage or are homeless before joining AA.

Maybe its just me, but I think that if you cannot stop drinking or using then you should be welcome--even if you have not wrecked everything yet. And nothing in the BB contradicts that.

I think that what this really is about is resentment. There are a lot of alcoholics/addicts out there who severely damaged themselves and resent those who recognize they have a problem before they trash everything. So they want to discourage those who try to get help early on.

sugarbear1

There's a common feeling alcholics share, which is this;

"But you don't really understand because MY case is different."

Terminally Unique

She means me, BTW, even though I have explained that I don't actually care how anyone stays sober.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you do this very thing in the AVRT thread before asking someone else why they do it in an AA meeting? AVRT welcomes this sort of criticism, but there are bound to be similarities in both of your motives, no? It might help to compare notes.

freethinking

I'm not getting into it with you again about this. You did say I was "in between binges" because I was not subscribing to the Big Plan aspect of AVRT. But, as far as I'm concerned, every "program" needs people like you because you guys are the ones who are zealous enough about it to carry the message of the program. People like me probably would not. I discuss my beliefs wherever I feel like it because people who question my ability to stay sober or even my qualifications as an alcoholic and the like don't bother me outside of these forums (in fact discussing these things on this website is a good outlet for me). HP seems to be bothered by it in the real life meetings he goes to, hence me pointing out what I did above.

Terminally Unique

HuskyPup,

I have to concur with OTT here. It may also help you to find a group with common interests, as opposed to common problems. Barring that, I think that LifeRing would probably suit your style. There are not many LifeRing groups in the East Coast, and it should not be too difficult for you to start one up if you wanted to. To my knowledge, there are no LR meetings in Maryland where you are, so the organization might give you more leeway than usual.