AA as the initial recovery resource; forever?
Interesting thread ... I will share my experience as someone who has a passion for research/history and am in love with an A who would have fit the criteria for a "card carrying" hopeless alcoholic for the old timers of early AA.
My RAH tried every recovery method under the sun and in the end it was the AA program in it's original historic form and the 12 steps that literally saved his life. However, I would agree that it is not the "only" way but for some I would argue it might be their only way out and that was the argument that many hardline AA Big Book thumpers believe.
When AA was in it's infancy and being "pioneered" there were start up groups in various states with different philosophies and differing results. The Ohio group was pioneered by Dr. Bob and those he sponsored followed his lead in how they taught others to work the program and the 12 steps (they weren't even called that then although the principles were taken from the Oxford Group and their prinicples were from the Bible).
Ohio had an astonishing 80 plus percent rate of success while New York were no where near that number. It is pretty easy to discern why the numbers were so different as Dr. Bob, Clarence Snyder and other leaders always qualified the person who wished to get sober in that they were hopeless alcoholic who was willing to go to any length to get sober and would follow direction of the recovery community he would enter.
It was very rigid dogmatic program and the meeting structure was different (there were no open meetings as we know today and it was all about the steps themselves and started on your knees to your HP which at that time was always Jesus Christ). You didn't even get to attend a meeting until you were issued a "card" hence the card carrying member of AA.
Needless to say there were no court ordered attendees and social butterflies were nonexistent in the early days. Being shotgunned into sobriety does not work and if you ony accept those who have truly bottomed and are desperately seeking help your success rates will improve. All who were admitted into the program had already done the steps (they were done very quickly and a prerequisite to moving forward and getting your card).
There was quite a row within AA as it evolved into a more welcoming and open organization and while there was never a split between the groups there was some real heat. It has been said that had Dr. Bob been the only founder AA would have never left Ohio and if Bill W had been the only founder AA would be a for profit corporation!
If we reverted back to an extremely strict entry program for AA we could enhancethe the results by controlling the population of those who participate if statistics are what we are striving for... I think we most agree that a looser more relaxed welcoming AA is more productive and the seeker of sobriety can choose how he wants to approach his own recovery.
Some start out as "meeting makers" and relapse enough that they reluctantly seek out the Big Book Thumpers that they once despised and follow the old school patterns and get sober.
Some stay sober as meeting makers only and are quite content.
Some leave and drink again.
Some stay for a period get sober and leave and never drink again and some do drink again.
Some choose another path such AVRT or RR and get sober and others drink again.
It is a very complex disease and all people are different and the AA program is just too diverse in population to get a real number on recovery rates.
Life is a series of choices and with the internet anyone can study the subject of alcoholism and recovery philosophies and figure out what might or might not work for them!
My RAH tried every recovery method under the sun and in the end it was the AA program in it's original historic form and the 12 steps that literally saved his life. However, I would agree that it is not the "only" way but for some I would argue it might be their only way out and that was the argument that many hardline AA Big Book thumpers believe.
When AA was in it's infancy and being "pioneered" there were start up groups in various states with different philosophies and differing results. The Ohio group was pioneered by Dr. Bob and those he sponsored followed his lead in how they taught others to work the program and the 12 steps (they weren't even called that then although the principles were taken from the Oxford Group and their prinicples were from the Bible).
Ohio had an astonishing 80 plus percent rate of success while New York were no where near that number. It is pretty easy to discern why the numbers were so different as Dr. Bob, Clarence Snyder and other leaders always qualified the person who wished to get sober in that they were hopeless alcoholic who was willing to go to any length to get sober and would follow direction of the recovery community he would enter.
It was very rigid dogmatic program and the meeting structure was different (there were no open meetings as we know today and it was all about the steps themselves and started on your knees to your HP which at that time was always Jesus Christ). You didn't even get to attend a meeting until you were issued a "card" hence the card carrying member of AA.
Needless to say there were no court ordered attendees and social butterflies were nonexistent in the early days. Being shotgunned into sobriety does not work and if you ony accept those who have truly bottomed and are desperately seeking help your success rates will improve. All who were admitted into the program had already done the steps (they were done very quickly and a prerequisite to moving forward and getting your card).
There was quite a row within AA as it evolved into a more welcoming and open organization and while there was never a split between the groups there was some real heat. It has been said that had Dr. Bob been the only founder AA would have never left Ohio and if Bill W had been the only founder AA would be a for profit corporation!
If we reverted back to an extremely strict entry program for AA we could enhancethe the results by controlling the population of those who participate if statistics are what we are striving for... I think we most agree that a looser more relaxed welcoming AA is more productive and the seeker of sobriety can choose how he wants to approach his own recovery.
Some start out as "meeting makers" and relapse enough that they reluctantly seek out the Big Book Thumpers that they once despised and follow the old school patterns and get sober.
Some stay sober as meeting makers only and are quite content.
Some leave and drink again.
Some stay for a period get sober and leave and never drink again and some do drink again.
Some choose another path such AVRT or RR and get sober and others drink again.
It is a very complex disease and all people are different and the AA program is just too diverse in population to get a real number on recovery rates.
Life is a series of choices and with the internet anyone can study the subject of alcoholism and recovery philosophies and figure out what might or might not work for them!
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by adore79
*on an unrelated note, this thread made me wonder what alcoholics did to get sober long ago before 12 step programs were created. id imagine not many of them got sober and maybe they didnt care. i dont know.
Originally Posted by mark75
No... Nothing has to be for life.
Interesting thread ... I will share my experience as someone who has a passion for research/history and am in love with an A who would have fit the criteria for a "card carrying" hopeless alcoholic for the old timers of early AA.
My RAH tried every recovery method under the sun and in the end it was the AA program in it's original historic form and the 12 steps that literally saved his life. However, I would agree that it is not the "only" way but for some I would argue it might be their only way out and that was the argument that many hardline AA Big Book thumpers believe.
When AA was in it's infancy and being "pioneered" there were start up groups in various states with different philosophies and differing results. The Ohio group was pioneered by Dr. Bob and those he sponsored followed his lead in how they taught others to work the program and the 12 steps (they weren't even called that then although the principles were taken from the Oxford Group and their prinicples were from the Bible).
Ohio had an astonishing 80 plus percent rate of success while New York were no where near that number. It is pretty easy to discern why the numbers were so different as Dr. Bob, Clarence Snyder and other leaders always qualified the person who wished to get sober in that they were hopeless alcoholic who was willing to go to any length to get sober and would follow direction of the recovery community he would enter.
It was very rigid dogmatic program and the meeting structure was different (there were no open meetings as we know today and it was all about the steps themselves and started on your knees to your HP which at that time was always Jesus Christ). You didn't even get to attend a meeting until you were issued a "card" hence the card carrying member of AA.
Needless to say there were no court ordered attendees and social butterflies were nonexistent in the early days. Being shotgunned into sobriety does not work and if you ony accept those who have truly bottomed and are desperately seeking help your success rates will improve. All who were admitted into the program had already done the steps (they were done very quickly and a prerequisite to moving forward and getting your card).
There was quite a row within AA as it evolved into a more welcoming and open organization and while there was never a split between the groups there was some real heat. It has been said that had Dr. Bob been the only founder AA would have never left Ohio and if Bill W had been the only founder AA would be a for profit corporation!
If we reverted back to an extremely strict entry program for AA we could enhancethe the results by controlling the population of those who participate if statistics are what we are striving for... I think we most agree that a looser more relaxed welcoming AA is more productive and the seeker of sobriety can choose how he wants to approach his own recovery.
Some start out as "meeting makers" and relapse enough that they reluctantly seek out the Big Book Thumpers that they once despised and follow the old school patterns and get sober.
Some stay sober as meeting makers only and are quite content.
Some leave and drink again.
Some stay for a period get sober and leave and never drink again and some do drink again.
Some choose another path such AVRT or RR and get sober and others drink again.
It is a very complex disease and all people are different and the AA program is just too diverse in population to get a real number on recovery rates.
Life is a series of choices and with the internet anyone can study the subject of alcoholism and recovery philosophies and figure out what might or might not work for them!
My RAH tried every recovery method under the sun and in the end it was the AA program in it's original historic form and the 12 steps that literally saved his life. However, I would agree that it is not the "only" way but for some I would argue it might be their only way out and that was the argument that many hardline AA Big Book thumpers believe.
When AA was in it's infancy and being "pioneered" there were start up groups in various states with different philosophies and differing results. The Ohio group was pioneered by Dr. Bob and those he sponsored followed his lead in how they taught others to work the program and the 12 steps (they weren't even called that then although the principles were taken from the Oxford Group and their prinicples were from the Bible).
Ohio had an astonishing 80 plus percent rate of success while New York were no where near that number. It is pretty easy to discern why the numbers were so different as Dr. Bob, Clarence Snyder and other leaders always qualified the person who wished to get sober in that they were hopeless alcoholic who was willing to go to any length to get sober and would follow direction of the recovery community he would enter.
It was very rigid dogmatic program and the meeting structure was different (there were no open meetings as we know today and it was all about the steps themselves and started on your knees to your HP which at that time was always Jesus Christ). You didn't even get to attend a meeting until you were issued a "card" hence the card carrying member of AA.
Needless to say there were no court ordered attendees and social butterflies were nonexistent in the early days. Being shotgunned into sobriety does not work and if you ony accept those who have truly bottomed and are desperately seeking help your success rates will improve. All who were admitted into the program had already done the steps (they were done very quickly and a prerequisite to moving forward and getting your card).
There was quite a row within AA as it evolved into a more welcoming and open organization and while there was never a split between the groups there was some real heat. It has been said that had Dr. Bob been the only founder AA would have never left Ohio and if Bill W had been the only founder AA would be a for profit corporation!
If we reverted back to an extremely strict entry program for AA we could enhancethe the results by controlling the population of those who participate if statistics are what we are striving for... I think we most agree that a looser more relaxed welcoming AA is more productive and the seeker of sobriety can choose how he wants to approach his own recovery.
Some start out as "meeting makers" and relapse enough that they reluctantly seek out the Big Book Thumpers that they once despised and follow the old school patterns and get sober.
Some stay sober as meeting makers only and are quite content.
Some leave and drink again.
Some stay for a period get sober and leave and never drink again and some do drink again.
Some choose another path such AVRT or RR and get sober and others drink again.
It is a very complex disease and all people are different and the AA program is just too diverse in population to get a real number on recovery rates.
Life is a series of choices and with the internet anyone can study the subject of alcoholism and recovery philosophies and figure out what might or might not work for them!
OP:
"I am curious to know from others experience; in a sense that if a persons' primary tool for recovery becomes AA, will that person then have to be involved in the program for the rest of their life and if they are not will they eventually succumb to their alcoholism without it?"
I, like you took a shotgun approach. I used AA and SR and my docs and in hospital detox as well as some counseling and rehab which I left after two days. (No that was not a relapse) I took a lot from my reading of SMART and took something from everything I researched and read.
I have been sober for a year and will remain so.
I did not do the steps, or go to 90 meetings in 90 days. I never asked for a sponsor. But I used AA twice a week at one little group I called my home group, and took my face to face support from them, people who gave of themselves and were some of the nicest people I have ever met and who I consider among my friends today. I was hesitant because I don't do religion or churches, and no I am not an atheist either that is not the topic. But the fact that I am not religion oriented was also no impediment for me in AA. I stopped going to AA after 3 months and went back to thank them at my one year anniversary. I guess they thought I was relapsed or dead they were so glad to see me. They asked me to check in every month or two and that I will do. It is just visiting with friends all in one place.
I wanted to answer because several of the folks there have been going to meetings for decades and go several times a week. And while I credit AA with being equally responsible with SR in my recovery, I did very little of the usual activities of AA. The AArs here and there did not come out and stone me or call me a heretic. Every one of them knew what I took from AA and that I am giving it away in my own way. Several members kept trying to hook me into going to other meetings and in the best way were trying to share the similar meetings in the area with me. I did find with two that saying thanks but no thanks wasn't the right answer so I took to taking their suggestions and thanking them and then throwing out the note when I got home. But I found my AA group to be terrific! They let me talk and be me with no fear of judgment or shocking anybody and they were good folks who were doctors and techs and regular folks too. They answered my questions about my PAWS and relapses and a million other issues I had. I listened to them and found so many inspirations in my two weekly meetings I attended that I honestly could not take more. Like college where if you want an A you put in 3 hours prep for every hour in class, B is 2hrs., and a C is one hour of prep for every hour in class. Thus 12 hours of classes is 36 hours of prep and 12 hours in class = 48 hours a week.
I would not put less time and effort into my sobriety than I did in my college classes. I got all A's then, and in my sobriety I got all A's from myself - I am sober.
If there were SMART meetings here I might have attended them and AA or them alone depending. But I can tell you that I got exactly what I needed from them. I saw others who got exactly what they needed from AA as well, and those differently from me. AA has a place for every level of involvement for those who want to get sober. My group is like here on SR. We are here so no reason to throw stones at those who use AA as well, or Smart, or other groups. There are some who used only here at SR and stayed sober.
I applaud your shotgun approach like I used. See you now will know when one of your shotgun pellets is not working for you anymore or if you have outgrown one. You can move on with no bad feelings or issues.
As far as all the statistics bandied about here, I care for only one indisputable statistic that I know is true. Some how, some way, I found the strength to save my self from alcohol with a little help from my friends here, and locally on 21 September 2010.
"I am curious to know from others experience; in a sense that if a persons' primary tool for recovery becomes AA, will that person then have to be involved in the program for the rest of their life and if they are not will they eventually succumb to their alcoholism without it?"
I, like you took a shotgun approach. I used AA and SR and my docs and in hospital detox as well as some counseling and rehab which I left after two days. (No that was not a relapse) I took a lot from my reading of SMART and took something from everything I researched and read.
I have been sober for a year and will remain so.
I did not do the steps, or go to 90 meetings in 90 days. I never asked for a sponsor. But I used AA twice a week at one little group I called my home group, and took my face to face support from them, people who gave of themselves and were some of the nicest people I have ever met and who I consider among my friends today. I was hesitant because I don't do religion or churches, and no I am not an atheist either that is not the topic. But the fact that I am not religion oriented was also no impediment for me in AA. I stopped going to AA after 3 months and went back to thank them at my one year anniversary. I guess they thought I was relapsed or dead they were so glad to see me. They asked me to check in every month or two and that I will do. It is just visiting with friends all in one place.
I wanted to answer because several of the folks there have been going to meetings for decades and go several times a week. And while I credit AA with being equally responsible with SR in my recovery, I did very little of the usual activities of AA. The AArs here and there did not come out and stone me or call me a heretic. Every one of them knew what I took from AA and that I am giving it away in my own way. Several members kept trying to hook me into going to other meetings and in the best way were trying to share the similar meetings in the area with me. I did find with two that saying thanks but no thanks wasn't the right answer so I took to taking their suggestions and thanking them and then throwing out the note when I got home. But I found my AA group to be terrific! They let me talk and be me with no fear of judgment or shocking anybody and they were good folks who were doctors and techs and regular folks too. They answered my questions about my PAWS and relapses and a million other issues I had. I listened to them and found so many inspirations in my two weekly meetings I attended that I honestly could not take more. Like college where if you want an A you put in 3 hours prep for every hour in class, B is 2hrs., and a C is one hour of prep for every hour in class. Thus 12 hours of classes is 36 hours of prep and 12 hours in class = 48 hours a week.
I would not put less time and effort into my sobriety than I did in my college classes. I got all A's then, and in my sobriety I got all A's from myself - I am sober.
If there were SMART meetings here I might have attended them and AA or them alone depending. But I can tell you that I got exactly what I needed from them. I saw others who got exactly what they needed from AA as well, and those differently from me. AA has a place for every level of involvement for those who want to get sober. My group is like here on SR. We are here so no reason to throw stones at those who use AA as well, or Smart, or other groups. There are some who used only here at SR and stayed sober.
I applaud your shotgun approach like I used. See you now will know when one of your shotgun pellets is not working for you anymore or if you have outgrown one. You can move on with no bad feelings or issues.
As far as all the statistics bandied about here, I care for only one indisputable statistic that I know is true. Some how, some way, I found the strength to save my self from alcohol with a little help from my friends here, and locally on 21 September 2010.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
AA doesn't have to be anything. It comes down to doing what works best for you. The problem with alcoholism is denial is always perched on your shoulder. AA keeps reminding you you're an alcoholic. I don't know what fills that very important function.
After 20 years of AA, the people who relapse and come back universally say they drank because they stopped going to meetings. I can't afford to take chances on my sobriety because I don't think I have another recovery in me.
And, what about giving back? Helping other alcoholics trying to get sober?
Of course it's your choice.
After 20 years of AA, the people who relapse and come back universally say they drank because they stopped going to meetings. I can't afford to take chances on my sobriety because I don't think I have another recovery in me.
And, what about giving back? Helping other alcoholics trying to get sober?
Of course it's your choice.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Leominster, Ma
Posts: 119
My husband was clean and sober in AA for over 10 years, then he left the program and then he drank and then he died...
everyone is different, if you're looking for a reason for not wanting or "needing" to go to meetings anymore, you're thinking of AA as being something you HAVE to do and no alcoholic I know ever wanted anyone to tell them what to do.. funny, after awhile most folks I know over the past 25 years WANT to go now, at first they were so desperate to live they didn't dare leave, now it's a tool for daily living.
best of luck. a day at a time...
everyone is different, if you're looking for a reason for not wanting or "needing" to go to meetings anymore, you're thinking of AA as being something you HAVE to do and no alcoholic I know ever wanted anyone to tell them what to do.. funny, after awhile most folks I know over the past 25 years WANT to go now, at first they were so desperate to live they didn't dare leave, now it's a tool for daily living.
best of luck. a day at a time...
My husband was clean and sober in AA for over 10 years, then he left the program and then he drank and then he died...
everyone is different, if you're looking for a reason for not wanting or "needing" to go to meetings anymore, you're thinking of AA as being something you HAVE to do and no alcoholic I know ever wanted anyone to tell them what to do.. funny, after awhile most folks I know over the past 25 years WANT to go now, at first they were so desperate to live they didn't dare leave, now it's a tool for daily living.
best of luck. a day at a time...
everyone is different, if you're looking for a reason for not wanting or "needing" to go to meetings anymore, you're thinking of AA as being something you HAVE to do and no alcoholic I know ever wanted anyone to tell them what to do.. funny, after awhile most folks I know over the past 25 years WANT to go now, at first they were so desperate to live they didn't dare leave, now it's a tool for daily living.
best of luck. a day at a time...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: pacific standard time
Posts: 289
i can't think further ahead than what is working for me today, and this morning i woke up at 5:30am (on purpose) and meditated, worked on my 4th step, meditated more, prayed and went to a 7am AA meeting (my home group).
in a few hours i'm headed to a 8pm meeting, then to a 10pm meeting (hot friday night out on the town!)
all i know is what has worked for the last 115 days and what is working for me today. When i start looking into the future, I freak out and start to get angry about having this stupid disease (see? i just called it stupid)
so basically, my experience thus far has been to not think about any success rate beyond what is working for me today and how i got here.
AA is working in a way that no other program ever has; it could be because i am doing the work, or it could be because it's just the right program for my recovery. I don't know, and I can't ask Why.
i'm starting to understand why "why" is not a spiritual question (i hear that a lot these days)
I don't know why any of this is working i just know that these steps are working for me, and they came to me by way of Alcoholics Anonymous.
all of it together is one big package - my drug addiction is part of it, but aa still works for me right now.
as an aside, i identify as "alcoholic" not "an" alcoholic - because my alcoholic mind is allergic not only to alcohol but to narcotics, and drama and resentment and emotional reactions.
I think i'm starting to understand the disease in such a way that I'm less concerned with what i'll need forever and really focused on what i need and need to do today.
wow, sorry to ramble like that. i say this every time, but i seriously never thought i'd ever wind up in aa, let alone sharing with others any hope that has been restored by aa. but fact is, hope is slowly restored.
ok now i'll shut up.
in a few hours i'm headed to a 8pm meeting, then to a 10pm meeting (hot friday night out on the town!)
all i know is what has worked for the last 115 days and what is working for me today. When i start looking into the future, I freak out and start to get angry about having this stupid disease (see? i just called it stupid)
so basically, my experience thus far has been to not think about any success rate beyond what is working for me today and how i got here.
AA is working in a way that no other program ever has; it could be because i am doing the work, or it could be because it's just the right program for my recovery. I don't know, and I can't ask Why.
i'm starting to understand why "why" is not a spiritual question (i hear that a lot these days)
I don't know why any of this is working i just know that these steps are working for me, and they came to me by way of Alcoholics Anonymous.
all of it together is one big package - my drug addiction is part of it, but aa still works for me right now.
as an aside, i identify as "alcoholic" not "an" alcoholic - because my alcoholic mind is allergic not only to alcohol but to narcotics, and drama and resentment and emotional reactions.
I think i'm starting to understand the disease in such a way that I'm less concerned with what i'll need forever and really focused on what i need and need to do today.
wow, sorry to ramble like that. i say this every time, but i seriously never thought i'd ever wind up in aa, let alone sharing with others any hope that has been restored by aa. but fact is, hope is slowly restored.
ok now i'll shut up.
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