Alcoholism and character defects/ morality
 

Hi everyone, I usually post in Newcomers to Recovery (I am currently 13 days sober) but I've been thinking about something related to alcoholism/AA so I thought I'd post here.

Yesterday I was reading Playboy (I'm a straight woman and I honestly like the writing!) and it contained comments about treatment for alcoholism, specifically AA. It was only in the Letters section and I hadn't read the issue that had a piece about AA, but only the readers' response (apaprently the original piece was about how AA doesn't work for some alcoholics, and looked at options for medicine/drugs that help alcoholics stay sober, or something). One guy, who wrote a book called Undrunk: The Skeptic's Guide to AA, was saying that AA helped him despite all the criticism it gets about being too religious anda bout alcoholics needing spiritual help because they are broken and bad people, etc. I could really relate to what that guy wrote. Another guy, who writes a blog criticizing 12-step programs, said that AA is bad because it assumes alcoholics are dishonest, immoral, depressed people who need some brainwashed spiritual awakening crap to be able to change who they are.

I am new to AA but so far have found that it helps me stay sober much easier than I can on my own. I could relate to the "criticisms" that people who go to AA are depressed, dishonest, and immoral... because I feel like I was all of those things and am trying to change who I am to become a better person. I feel like alcoholism was one of my issues but I have others and that I need a radical turn-around with how I deal with life. I feel that AA so far helps me in all ways of my life and not just with not drinking. I do think there are elements of alcoholism that make an alcoholic lie and be deceptive and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Am I totally off base here-- are there alcoholics who are upstanding, honest people? I don't necessarily consider alcoholism to be a moral/character defect but it seems that one problem can affect another and that dealing with issues by drinking makes it less likely that a person will be as mature, direct and hoenst as people who don't drink. Why is it such a bad thing if there is a program to help these people? Or is the foundation of the program totally biased because it assumes the worst in people/alcoholics?

I would really love to hear what other people think about this topic because as I explore my issues and my alcoholism, I keep getting tripped up on this chicken-and-egg type dilemma: Did I do all of these bad/wrong things because of alcohol, or did I drink too much because I was bad/wrong, or is it a bit of both??

It doesn't really matter, I think. Will recovery from alcohol addiction remove all your deficiencies? Probably not. Will recovery improve your life? I'd guess yes. Leave it at that.

And I suggest you read Playboy for the pictures...for recovery, read the AA Big Book and you'll see that it doesn't characterize alcoholics like blog-guy seems to suggest.

I've been on both ends of the recovery spectrum. When I was in AA I felt a little "silenced and beat up", that was just me and my AA experience though...it was enough to lead me down a different recovery path eventually but AA does seem to work well for other people so they can just go nuts with it while I go nuts with my thing. :D

But I don't think I was ever the run-of-the-mill drunk ***hole type. I was more the passive, isolated, don't let anyone know about my addiction type. I know I've gotten angry when drunk with others but it's never been violence...minus my ex's car. lol I've kept jobs, graduated college and have had no run ins with the law...this can be accomplished with a lot of fear, anxiety and awareness revolving your addiction. lol

In my opinion, some of us were jerks before alcohol and some weren't. But AFTER alcohol, we've all did at least a handful of things we wouldn't had we been sober which is why spiritual healing can sound appealing.

And if you're a straight female, switch to Playgirl...that stuff's gonna give you an inferiority complex. lol:tongue1:

I think the trap is thinking that all alcoholics are the same. There are many roads into alcoholism. What works for people in finding a way out depends on a variety of things. It’s not simple. I think you are right on track in observing that one problem effects another.

The bottom line is that we all do bad/wrong things. We do because we are human. The important thing, in my opinion, is what do we do as a result of doing those bad/wrong things.

Looking at the quote at the bottom of your page from Jennifer Knapp, I think you would like Carl Jung’s letter to Bill Wilson. You can find it here.

barefootsworld.net/images/jung_letter.jpg

It’s a better answer to your question than I could hope to give.

No.

Alcoholics are all the same, a bunch of lieing degenerates who are morally bankrupt and can't be trusted.

Seriously though, remember that the AA book was written before WWII, and things have changed a lot since then. That doesn't mean there's no value in the AA book, I read it and found it helpful.

Having the disease of alcoholism doesn't make you a morally deficient or a bad person, in my opinion. Though alcohol affects your judgement and certainly made me do things I otherwise wouldn't have done. Things which I am accountable for.

Even when I was drinking I was a moral person. I would say I was pretty honest as well...I'm single and live alone so I never really had to lie to anyone about my drinking.

Try Playgirl instead;)

I think that alcoholism is a disease, not a character defect.

However, I think that, as an alcoholic, I needed to do more than just stop drinking.

I had to take a look at my life and figure out why I had gone off-track. I was neither dishonest, nor immoral. I needed to find ways to believe in myself and my place in the world, to increase my self-esteem so that I no longer looked for things that were outside of myself, to fill me. I needed to re-connect with my spiritual self, which I had lost as a result of childhood abuse.

I don't feel I have a character defect. I didn't particularly lie while drinking, I just neglected to tell the person I was living with I was sneaking beers while he was at work. I did go to great lengths to hide it. I didn't tell my daughter either but she busted out laughing when I told her I was an alcoholic, because I never acted drunk and its taken me a year of counseling to figure out I wasn't the monster my former signifcant other said I was. It was an abusive relationship. I didn't really "DO" anything bad while drunk. Mainly sat on the couch and cried. I paid for my beer myself, still paid my own bills with my own money which I worked for. I have also since found out the only person who accused me of being an alcoholic monster has done really horrible, foul things to other people and then tried to point out their flaws or outright make up flaws to justify why it ok to treat others this was. Oh and guess what guys for people who remember my situation? Not only is this supposed non drinker drinking, he is getting drunk with his uncle who was lucky enough to get a kidney transplant, which he needed because of drinking. Its public on both of their facebooks.
In other areas of my life, I don't lie, I dont cheat, I don't steal. I work, pay my taxes and even volunteer, which I don't have to. I had been using alcohol to self medicate my anxiety which is something I know I will never do again. I should have just been getting the hell out of the situation I was in instead. I have been restored to sanity, not only because I quit drinking problematically. I have taken control of my own life again and I am becoming healthy in ALL areas.

I do not believe that it makes a whole lot of sense to claim that alcoholism is both a disease over which one has no control, and a product of character defects, moral shortcomings and selfishness.

With that said, am I a "better person" now than I was when I was drinking? Yes, I undoubtedly am.

I'm going to have to check out that issue of Playboy. I haven't looked at one, I mean read one, in years.

I view character defects as behaviors I want to improve in myself, and there is always room for improvement (and if I run out my wife could probably name a few more if I asked her). For example one area I've grown in, is that I no longer use my middle finger to signal to other drivers.

Don't get hung up on the term "character defects" I see it as a reflection of language from my grandmother's generation.

By the way, I've read Undrunk: A Skeptic's Guide to AA by A.J. Adams and would recommend it. It helped me decide to give AA a try and I'm glad I did.

AA does not consider alcoholism to be a moral failing. In fact, it's just the opposite. The BB states we can have moral convictions galore, and it still won't help us overcome alcoholism.

My character defects are the same as everyone else. It's just that those defects keep me blocked off from a desperately needed power. No big deal for a non-alkie; they can get by just fine with those defects. But for an alkie like me, whose problem is lack of power and whose only hope is the maintenance and growth of a spiritual connection, those defects can be deadly.

There are a lot of opinions and ideas on what AA is and what AA is not put out there by a lot of people with very little experience in AA. The BB states clearly what AA is. Better yet, take the Steps and have your own experience with AA. Then you'll know exactly what it is.

For some bizarre reason there are people who are hell bent on telling us that AA doesn't work, or it's a cult, or it's a Christian/Religious program; that admitting "powerlessess" makes us wimps or zombies or cultists or doormats. I read this stuff and ask myself "What meetings do these people go to? Have they ever really looked at the steps, or are they just making assumptions based on their own personal agenda and baggage?".

I look at the people around the table at my home group, and I see happiness, and hear laughter, and hopefulness. And this is bad because...?

Are 12-step programs for everyone? Of course not. But...
...then that's all you need to know.

And CONGRATULATIONS on your 13 days!

Well, having been in AA for nine years, and read all the literature, and worked the steps multiple times, and been to a couple thousand meetings, I'm pretty comfortable with my conclusion that AA does consider alcoholism to be a moral failing. The BB is really pretty clear about it.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help." BB, page 62.

Guys, I'm not trying to bash AA. Really. I know you folks love the program, and that's fine. But if AA doesn't consider alcoholism a moral failing, then the above words would not be in its primary text.

Thank you everyone for all the helpful (and some humorous ;) responses. It’s helpful to remember that not all alcoholics are the same, although when I go to AA meetings I feel very much like many of the other members! So I start to think that the disease affects all of us the same way, and that may not be true. Sometimes I am too extreme/black and white in my thinking.

For me, I have been dishonest and immoral about many things, not just drinking, or while drinking. Sometimes I find myself thinking, “Well I HOPE it was my alcoholism that made me do some of this stuff… and that that’s not really me!” The strange thing is, the same day I thought that, I read a portion from the book I am really trying to improve my way of living, which I’ve realized I can’t do while drinking.

Awuh, thanks for the link to the letter from Carl Jung, I found it very interesting. I have been listening to Jennifer Knapp/Christian music that I liked in high school, even though I’m no longer Christian. I find it helpful to use as a metaphor, like, turning my life over to a higher power of my understanding (not that I’ve figured out exactly what that is yet). So this is all very interesting for me to think about. Thank you.

Zebra- Thanks for recommending Undrunk, I already wanted to check it out and now I definitely will. :-)

I think what meetings people initially go to make a difference. My first was a large meeting crammed with a large amount of people, no close parking, creepy men that followed me to my car. Offensive topics. All the while spouting "god".
Then I found a nice group at a local hospital that was more...I dunno... civilized? One of the ladies took me to a women's group which was nice too, night and day. Did not continue to live in that area but if I did I would have continued with the latter two groups.
I am not into AA myself but the big book is definitely of value to anyone who wants to quit drinking.

"Take what works, and leave the rest" :)

Nope, it's just the opposite. well...

The foundation of the program is spiritual. The problem is not the alcohol, the problem is us.... Alcohol is mentioned only in the first step.

OTT laid out some reasons why he thinks AA considers alcoholism a moral failing. I think he has it wrong, and, he will think I do, and that's OK..... Hmmm.... Since the basis of AA is spiritual, our journey must be one of removing that which blocks us from our higher power. Therefore, we must take inventory and discover what that is. No big deal, frankly I assume that it is part of the human essence to have "character defects" and I am not personally offended by that notion.

It's nice to have you here on SR, it is helpful for all of us to explore these questions... well, it is for me.

I read Undrunk... Downloaded on my kindle. Definitely give it a read, but my own experience with AA is much richer and deeper than what is discussed in that book... Read the text of AA.... "Alcoholics Anonymous" ... that's the program of AA... not meetings, meetings support the program AA. See what YOU think.

None of which even come close to inferring that alcoholism itself is a moral failing... what it does say, fairly clearly I always thought, is that we are deeply flawed people- the alcoholism we are so powerless over is a symptom of these flaws. And, only by addressing these flaws (defects) can we ameliorate this symptom of the flaws. Hence why nowhere in the text does it teach me how to not drink, instead it teaches me how to find a solution to the problem of which the drink is a symptom.

Before AA, alcoholism was seen as a moral failing. That the habitual drunk was seen as a person of weak character because of the lack of willpower or moral strength.

IMO, AA is a faith based program where the 12 steps move a person towards a spiritual solution. The alcoholic is seen as someone that has an illness and not a moral failing. I see the moral component of AA more directed at loosing overt self-interest so they may become more receptive to their HP's direction and to help other alcoholics.

I'm an alcoholic and I don't consider myself a deeply flawed person. I started drinking at 13 years old and drank for 20 years until I went to an OP rehab for 9 months to get sober.

If they had told me at the outset I was a deeply flawed person and needed to find god to remove my defects I doubt I would be sober today.

I don't see how telling someone trying to get sober that they are a deeply flawed human being is helpful.