Pigtails

These were exactly my thoughts. If alcoholism often comes with other issues and causes/helps someone to make bad decisions, what is so bad about a program that helps the person make better choices and not drink? To me they are often entwined although it is also helpful to read the posts of people here who say they were good, moral people who drank. I know there are all different types of alcoholics but for me and for many, alcohol caused us to make very poor chocies and helped strip us of character and morality, or else made it so that we never gained these things because were were too busy drinking.

So when I think of it this way, AA isn't a religion but it does say, you need a new way of life, something else to live for besides alcohol/your own selfish desires. And my higher power can be my conscience/ my desire to live a good life and be a good person. Because that is my main reason for not drinking, and it's a good thing to remind myself about every time I feel like I can/should drink.

Mark75

You got it, Pigtails!!!

Terminally Unique

"The subjects for a movement inventory are legion. The important thing is that the process has begun. I hope that every considerable gathering of A.A.'s will give thought to sessions on taking inventory of A.A. and to inviting critics, even hostile ones, to participate because you sometimes find that people animated by what may appear to be the worst possible motives speak truth in large portions."

soberlicious

Change or die...you need a new way of life...um, these ideas are not exclusive to AA...I figured them out all by myself whilst in the psych ward.

Mark75

TU... a little bit out of context, wouldn't you say? The critics that Bill W. was referring to were those involved in the process... i.e. involved in group inventory... i.e., members of AA.... that is way different than those people langkah was referring to...

langkah

Terminally Unique...A little background on your Bill quote from '63. There had been 2 lightweight slightly negative articles and one misguided and generally nasty one that saw national exposure by that point in our history, and there were members who wanted to ridicule the writers of the articles for getting things so very wrong.

It was critical at that juncture to appear incredibly and sincerely mature to obtain the votes needed to install a majority of alcoholics on the Trustee Board. Setting the journalists straight might have developed into a controversy and thus was likely to impair the realization of the far more important (to Bill) personal crusade he wanted to see and did see completed before his death.

The reality is that no misguided outside critic even when animated by the worst possible motives has changed a thing in AA. He was being PC to control others in order to acheive a personal goal.

Hope that helps you better understand your quote.

Today of course there's no need to engage the non-engaged when they get hot and fluffed up about their misperceptions. As I mentioned in the quote of mine you liked, there's no reason to care.

As an aside, quite a few of Trimpey's statements should be looked at and evaluated, just as Bill's are by so many, especially non-AAs. Shall we start an interesting quote thread?

Like the one where Jack explains that his personal ideas regarding recovery surpass in importance all other ideas in every other field of human knowlege over the last few hundred years.

What do you think he meant by that?

Dee74

I think we're drifting off-road topic wise...I suggest you guys start a new thread or take it to PM?

D

Terminally Unique

langkah,

I know what Bill Wilson was responding to—articles similar to the one that prompted this very thread—which is why I chose it. I appreciate your take on his motives, however.

Pigtails

I guess I shouldn't have really made the focus of the post the article (really comments about the article, which I didn't even read itself) or even AA. They have just been thoughts I had been having which happened to coincide with the magazine I was reading. I mean, yeah, I wonder why AA's answer to alcoholism is spirituality. To me it implies that alcoholics are somehow empty or broken. I can understand that premise as I feel it about myself. I'm not sure what's so wrong with it that people feel the need to bash it. I guess it's the old choice versus disease debate. I'm not sure. But what I've gotten out of this discussion is that alcoholism and other issues are often linked, and that turning to alcohol can rob us of better ways of dealing with things and strip us of our connection with a meaningful purpose in life, or even our connection with other human beings.

mattparadise

One resonse noted that the big book is older than WWII. A lot has happened since then in this rapidly changing world of ours. You can read it and take what you can from its pages, but I wouldn't recommend that you take it too seriously.

I find that I'm better off without AA than I ever was with it... Just like EtOH...

Mark75

It is not only alcoholics that look to spirituality to bring meaning and serenity to their lives ... Right?

Pigtails

True. I used to think people who "needed" "religion" were weak, yet there I was needing alcohol. Silly me. :-/

UofI2008

In regards to your OP, I would read the book "Under the Influence" I believe there is a sticky at the top of this forum about it. It talks about how our "defects" are just a product of what our alcohol dependency does to us. I read it and loved it. In fact, it gave me a new perspective on AA, rehab, and the more traditional programs.

DayTrader

2 quick things came to me....

1. IF you have the ability to better yourself, your surroundings and the people/places/things in your life, just make them better and you're all set. While I don't believe for a SECOND that we're powerLESS in those areas......I see that there's usually a deficiency in the power we can muster - hence the need for "additional power."

2. If life's great, or you're willing to accept it as it is and be happy.....then you're good to go. Real recovery and true sobriety are about getting HAPPY. If you're enjoying life, your job, your spouse, family, the people in your life......etc etc...then hell, you're done. I can delude myself into believing I'm happy for periods of time but, sooner or later, reality smacks me in the face and I have to concede that things aren't quite right yet. .....which takes me back to that 1st point above - If I have the ability to change myself and/or the other things around me......then do so. If I don't have that ability then I can just accept them as they are and try to move on as best I can OR I can look for some additional power. Personally, I like the additional power route.

Pigtails

Thank you for adding to my growing list of must-read books. (I love to read and have been "addicted" to reading recovery books-- right now I'm reading "First Year Sobriety: When All that Changes is Everything" and I find it so helpful.) I've read parts of Under the Influence online/here at SR but look forward to reading the entire book.

Pigtails

I like the idea in theory but I just can't seem to believe in anything supernatural. For me right now it's my conscience, as someone else said... the part of me that wants to do the good/right thing and knows it can have a happy life. Also the group, and just letting go to fate/the universe. That is as far as I can get right now, but it doesn't really feel to me like additional "power" from some supernatural source-- it's just drawing on what's in me and realizing there are forces such as nature/fate that are outside of my control.

SteppingItUp

So are the Bible, the Constitution and the Rosetta Stone. Not sure how stickability discredits it.

Because as I see it for myself, nothing in the course of human history, before or after its writing, comes close to being nearly as solid and powerful in the effective treatment of alcoholism (and addiction) in me and so many others all around the world. I'm not saying it's the only way, but it's the only way that has worked for me. Also, as far as I can tell, alcoholism has not changed since the 1930's.

If you think you have a better way, I'd be interested in learning about it.

recycle

Pigtails, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and the intention to move forward. One of the things I had to let go of was the need to figure everything out before acting. I have found recovery to be an iterative process. I am continually moving between theory and practice, between cognition and direct experience.

My inability to believe that the supernatural exists has not precluded an honest search and application the program. Saying it is the journey and not the destination is cliche, but I have found it a pragmatic truth that helps keep me sober.

Wishing you the best.

Pigtails

You nailed it -- I get stuck in analysis paralysis and feel incapable of making decisions until I have thought of every possibility over and over and over. I am trying to break free of this. And going to AA even though I can't say I understand the point. It does help and that is all that matters to me right now. Thanks!!

BadCompany

That's all the more you need to bring to the God stuff right now.