Alcoholism and character defects/ morality
Always, Never & Forever
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by BASEjumper 
There are lots of ways to get sober, and I'm unconcerned which one people choose. But the bottom line is that if you're an alcoholic and you drink you will die.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
That may be the way most community meetings view alcoholism, but I can tell you that is not the way the medical community views it.
Alcoholism is a primary disease, which means it stands on it's own, independent of any other conditions. Alcoholism has sypmtoms, but is not a symptom of something else.
Alcoholism is a primary disease, which means it stands on it's own, independent of any other conditions. Alcoholism has sypmtoms, but is not a symptom of something else.
It had one item: drinking.
I am atheist, neither religious nor spiritual, but I kind of dig the old fire and brimstone view of alcoholism as sin/vice myself. It has simplified things immensely, and good old fashioned moral judgment has proven to be both the necessary torque in my recovery, as well as the final stake through the heart of my former addictions.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 694
I have always struggled with ‘God’, I do want to believe but when I have conversations I am always told I must not… so I guess I am on the agnostic fence.
I do however believe the universe can be traced back 13.7 billion years, which started as immense energy, I also believe like a sand castle on the beach the universe will eventually become so disordered and spread out but will exist in some form, energy can’t be naturally created or destroyed, it always will be something…
It's like ‘God’ threw a bunch of rocks through time; some of them became conscious and had a chance to change their direction if only for a spec in time, ‘I think so therefore I am’ comes to mind, I have a conscious and I am changing my direction to benefit my outcome, to resist entropy as long as I can, to do that I allow my conscious to lead me, to do that I have to know the difference between the ‘good’ voices and the ‘evil’ voices in my head.
I do however believe the universe can be traced back 13.7 billion years, which started as immense energy, I also believe like a sand castle on the beach the universe will eventually become so disordered and spread out but will exist in some form, energy can’t be naturally created or destroyed, it always will be something…
It's like ‘God’ threw a bunch of rocks through time; some of them became conscious and had a chance to change their direction if only for a spec in time, ‘I think so therefore I am’ comes to mind, I have a conscious and I am changing my direction to benefit my outcome, to resist entropy as long as I can, to do that I allow my conscious to lead me, to do that I have to know the difference between the ‘good’ voices and the ‘evil’ voices in my head.
Gone In
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I'm well aware of the definition of alcoholism adopted by both the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine, but neither are the medical community. I'm also well aware of the inconsistency in combining it with either spiritual or psychological treatment, which I have posted about elsewhere. I recall listening to primary disease lectures and then being told to work on either my underlying issues or my character defects, at which point I told them that if alcoholism was indeed a primary condition, I had a much better idea, and showed them my fearless moral inventory / underlying issue list.
It had one item: drinking.
It had one item: drinking.
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I am atheist, neither religious nor spiritual, but I kind of dig the old fire and brimstone view of alcoholism as sin/vice myself. It has simplified things immensely, and good old fashioned moral judgment has proven to be both the necessary torque in my recovery, as well as the final stake through the heart of my former addictions.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
Well, having been in AA for nine years, and read all the literature, and worked the steps multiple times, and been to a couple thousand meetings, I'm pretty comfortable with my conclusion that AA does consider alcoholism to be a moral failing. The BB is really pretty clear about it.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help." BB, page 62.
Guys, I'm not trying to bash AA. Really. I know you folks love the program, and that's fine. But if AA doesn't consider alcoholism a moral failing, then the above words would not be in its primary text.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
"So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help." BB, page 62.
Guys, I'm not trying to bash AA. Really. I know you folks love the program, and that's fine. But if AA doesn't consider alcoholism a moral failing, then the above words would not be in its primary text.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 139
Your higher power can simply be your desire to not drink. I understand how some people are put off on AA by the whole "God" thing. It didn't just annoy me when I first went, it freaked me out as my first husband was an abusive religious fanatic and christianity has made me nervous since then
If you look deeper, higher power does not mean Christianity. It can be anything. Your desire to not drink, whatever you believe in, etc.,
The only thing I will say is that in this day and age, AA may want to change its terminology and some procedures. Replace the word "God" with higher power or sobriety. and enough with the lord's prayer at the end of meetings. This comes straight from Christianity and alienates people of other beliefs, though I know that is not the intent.
If you look deeper, higher power does not mean Christianity. It can be anything. Your desire to not drink, whatever you believe in, etc.,
The only thing I will say is that in this day and age, AA may want to change its terminology and some procedures. Replace the word "God" with higher power or sobriety. and enough with the lord's prayer at the end of meetings. This comes straight from Christianity and alienates people of other beliefs, though I know that is not the intent.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
I'm curious to hear this, can you elaborate on how a moral judgement helped in your recovery and drove in that final stake?
In my case, I have, through painful experience, come to see the difference between right and wrong as it pertains to my own drinking. Since drinking will probably turn me into a belligerent sociopath, and since I cannot predict with certainty what I will do once I drink, I have concluded that drinking, in and of itself, for me, is the most immoral act of all. As such, I have decided to never have a drink again, and to never change my mind, regardless of circumstances, as a matter of principle.
This insight allows my moral conscience to automatically detect any thought or feeling that so much as suggests the slightest possibility of any future drinking, with very little effort on my part. Once recognized, the machinery of AVRT kicks in, and I detach from such thoughts or feelings. This has not come naturally, and at first it took some conscious effort, but it is pretty automatic now, like dropping a hot potato before it burns me. I am mindful that this sort of talk might make me come off as a prohibitionist or religious fundamentalist, though.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
I don't want people who may be reading this and trying to get sober to think that if they can just figure themselves out, the drinking will simply go away.
[/QUOTE] There are lots of ways to get sober, and I'm unconcerned which one people choose. But the bottom line is that if you're an alcoholic and you drink you will die.[/QUOTE]
I haven't taken a drink in some time, and I will still die. More fearful to me has always been simply blotting out my life immersed in the hell that I formerly existed in. Death, at the time, was generally viewed as a sweet release.
[/QUOTE] Do I have flaws, defects? Of course, just like everyone else. I work on self-improvement, and it's a noble goal for a person. But I don't think addressing character issues will save you from an alcoholic death.[/QUOTE]
Speak for yourself. Addressing these issues in the way I did proved crucial for me, and many others I know. For me, confronting some of these truths about myself allowed me to gain a victory over alcohol I was previously unable to achieve when I tried to simply put the plug in the jug, or simply attend AA meetings, or other half measures.
Gone In
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
You would be, since almost all proven problem drinkers try to deny that drinking, for them, is profoundly wrong. It is the very nature of addiction itself to create that illusion, or at least to minimize that aspect of it. I certainly did. Most people in recovery will also insist that addiction is not a moral issue, or that moral and philosophical convictions alone are not enough to defeat an addiction. There is some truth in that, but such convictions certainly don't hurt, either.
In my case, I have, through painful experience, come to see the difference between right and wrong as it pertains to my own drinking. Since drinking will probably turn me into a belligerent sociopath, and since I cannot predict with certainty what I will do once I drink, I have concluded that drinking, in and of itself, for me, is the most immoral act of all. As such, I have decided to never have a drink again, and to never change my mind, regardless of circumstances, as a matter of principle.
This insight allows my moral conscience to automatically detect any thought or feeling that so much as suggests the slightest possibility of any future drinking, with very little effort on my part. Once recognized, the machinery of AVRT kicks in, and I detach from such thoughts or feelings. This has not come naturally, and at first it took some conscious effort, but it is pretty automatic now, like dropping a hot potato before it burns me. I am mindful that this sort of talk might make me come off as a prohibitionist or religious fundamentalist, though.
In my case, I have, through painful experience, come to see the difference between right and wrong as it pertains to my own drinking. Since drinking will probably turn me into a belligerent sociopath, and since I cannot predict with certainty what I will do once I drink, I have concluded that drinking, in and of itself, for me, is the most immoral act of all. As such, I have decided to never have a drink again, and to never change my mind, regardless of circumstances, as a matter of principle.
This insight allows my moral conscience to automatically detect any thought or feeling that so much as suggests the slightest possibility of any future drinking, with very little effort on my part. Once recognized, the machinery of AVRT kicks in, and I detach from such thoughts or feelings. This has not come naturally, and at first it took some conscious effort, but it is pretty automatic now, like dropping a hot potato before it burns me. I am mindful that this sort of talk might make me come off as a prohibitionist or religious fundamentalist, though.
When I think about it I was going to say when I drank I never was sociopathic, but to be honest I drove drunk so I can't say that now can I?
I suppose it would be morally wrong for me to drink: It would hurt my wife, hurt myself, and possibly someone else if I drove drunk, which I have done before.
I never looked at it that way.
What about for those alcoholics actively drinking, does that insane compulsion to drink relieve them of that moral obligation? I used to drink many times nearly in tears, not wanting to drink at all but unable to stop.
Do you think the choice to drink has to be back in your hands before you carry that moral responsibility?
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
That's an interesting point. I was thinking along the lines of a moral judgement on the character of an alcoholic for being an alcoholic, not making a subjective moral judgement about the act of drinking (for me).
When I think about it I was going to say when I drank I never was sociopathic, but to be honest I drove drunk so I can't say that now can I?
I suppose it would be morally wrong for me to drink: It would hurt my wife, hurt myself, and possibly someone else if I drove drunk, which I have done before.
I never looked at it that way.
What about for those alcoholics actively drinking, does that insane compulsion to drink relieve them of that moral obligation? I used to drink many times nearly in tears, not wanting to drink at all but unable to stop.
Do you think the choice to drink has to be back in your hands before you carry that moral responsibility?
When I think about it I was going to say when I drank I never was sociopathic, but to be honest I drove drunk so I can't say that now can I?
I suppose it would be morally wrong for me to drink: It would hurt my wife, hurt myself, and possibly someone else if I drove drunk, which I have done before.
I never looked at it that way.
What about for those alcoholics actively drinking, does that insane compulsion to drink relieve them of that moral obligation? I used to drink many times nearly in tears, not wanting to drink at all but unable to stop.
Do you think the choice to drink has to be back in your hands before you carry that moral responsibility?
view as a moral failing. But, for me, the two have been intertwined. I could not address one without addressing the other. By which I mean, simply trying to not drink did not work. Maybe I would string together some days, hell I even went 8 months once, but without facing these things that stood in my way from the solution I eventually found, then the insane urge to drink would never leave me alone.
As for the "choice", I still believe that I do not choose to not drink. Simply that by working towards the solution I have, then the alcohol problem was removed from me. It is a nonissue and requires no "choice" on my part. That said, I do not hesitate to work with wet drunks on this solution. For me, the obsession to drink was removed fairly quickly.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
I suppose it would be morally wrong for me to drink: It would hurt my wife, hurt myself, and possibly someone else if I drove drunk, which I have done before.
I never looked at it that way.
I never looked at it that way.
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
What about for those alcoholics actively drinking, does that insane compulsion to drink relieve them of that moral obligation? I used to drink many times nearly in tears, not wanting to drink at all but unable to stop.
Do you think the choice to drink has to be back in your hands before you carry that moral responsibility?
Do you think the choice to drink has to be back in your hands before you carry that moral responsibility?
Gone In
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 223
Originally Posted by EricL
I wouldn't recommend solitary self appraisal either? Me using my own mind to try to figure out my mind and fix my own mind has proven futile-every single time.
I haven't taken a drink in some time, and I will still die. More fearful to me has always been simply blotting out my life immersed in the hell that I formerly existed in. Death, at the time, was generally viewed as a sweet release.
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
There are lots of ways to get sober, and I'm unconcerned which one people choose. But the bottom line is that if you're an alcoholic and you drink you will die.
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
Do I have flaws, defects? Of course, just like everyone else. I work on self-improvement, and it's a noble goal for a person. But I don't think addressing character issues will save you from an alcoholic death.
Originally Posted by EricL
Speak for yourself. Addressing these issues in the way I did proved crucial for me, and many others I know. For me, confronting some of these truths about myself allowed me to gain a victory over alcohol I was previously unable to achieve when I tried to simply put the plug in the jug, or simply attend AA meetings, or other half measures.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WI
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
I understand we all still die. I wanted to underscore the fact that alcoholism is fatal, and it's a grim death indeed, as dawnrunner can attest
Fair enough, that was a broad statement on my part. Can you share how doing that helped you stay sober? Maybe I (and others) can learn something.
Fair enough, that was a broad statement on my part. Can you share how doing that helped you stay sober? Maybe I (and others) can learn something.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by EricL
I haven't taken a drink in some time, and I will still die. More fearful to me has always been simply blotting out my life immersed in the hell that I formerly existed in. Death, at the time, was generally viewed as a sweet release.
Originally Posted by Alcoholics Anonymous, 1st Ed, Page 152
He cannot picture life without alcohol. Some day he will be unable to imagine life either with alcohol or without it. Then he will know loneliness such as few do. He will be at the jumping-off place. He will wish for the end.
Gone In
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 223
That passage really struck me too. When I first read it, I was in that place at the time, where you can't imagine life with or without alcohol. A truly untenable position, where death is a release.
I don't think I've ever felt so alone, scared and miserable in my entire life.
I don't think I've ever felt so alone, scared and miserable in my entire life.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,937
Originally Posted by BASEjumper
Fair enough, that was a broad statement on my part. Can you share how doing that helped you stay sober? Maybe I (and others) can learn something.
Now despite what the Big Book says it wasn't all me, but much of it was. As I worked to remove my character defects I removed my part in the hostility in my life. When life sends me a bump in the road, I don't make it worse. When I am the one that put the bump there in the first place I can work towards not doing that to myself. Slowly but surely my life became a place that was tolerable sober. I ceased fighting everything and everyone and my life has become a rather peaceful place, with no need to "take the edge off".
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by ronf
Mornin all, This thread seems to have a number of people struggling with the "God thing" If I may? throw in my 2 cents. I struggled with this for years, my childhood version just wasn't cutting it! I finally accepted my own conscience as my guide. I CAN get my head around the concept that this is my Higher power's? God's? way of dealing with me on a personal level. My conscience is real, it makes me feel good, or it makes me cringe when I've done wrong. If I make it any more complicated then that I start going in circles.
For what it's worth, Ron
For what it's worth, Ron
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
I am new to AA but so far have found that it helps me stay sober much easier than I can on my own. I could relate to the "criticisms" that people who go to AA are depressed, dishonest, and immoral... because I feel like I was all of those things and am trying to change who I am to become a better person. I feel like alcoholism was one of my issues but I have others and that I need a radical turn-around with how I deal with life. I feel that AA so far helps me in all ways of my life and not just with not drinking. I do think there are elements of alcoholism that make an alcoholic lie and be deceptive and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Am I totally off base here-- are there alcoholics who are upstanding, honest people? I don't necessarily consider alcoholism to be a moral/character defect but it seems that one problem can affect another and that dealing with issues by drinking makes it less likely that a person will be as mature, direct and hoenst as people who don't drink. Why is it such a bad thing if there is a program to help these people? Or is the foundation of the program totally biased because it assumes the worst in people/alcoholics?
But someone else put it more bluntly: "change or die". Since I was a psychological & spiritual disaster, it seemed like a good idea. I was a typical drunk: enormous ego combined with low self esteem, self-willed, self-centered and grandiose. I'd been lying to myself and others for a long time. If I continued being this person I'd drink again. "The person who comes in these rooms will drink again..."
When I put down alcohol I felt enormous self-hatred, guilt and resentment. Untreated, these emotions will lead me back to a drink quickly. The work I did with a sponsor kept these things in check enough that I didn't drink. The only step I've done perfectly in 20 years is the Step 1: I didn't drink. It's "progress, not perfection."
I've heard that cognitive therapy works great for recovering alcoholics but when I got sober (1991) nobody knew any of this. It's not one size fits all and if the thought of going to AA keeps you from getting sober, an addiction specialist can lay out the options and help come up with a plan that works for you. But in the end, no matter which path we take we must change our insides. The alcohol itself is but a symptom.
Mornin all, This thread seems to have a number of people struggling with the "God thing" If I may? throw in my 2 cents. I struggled with this for years, my childhood version just wasn't cutting it! I finally accepted my own conscience as my guide. I CAN get my head around the concept that this is my Higher power's? God's? way of dealing with me on a personal level. My conscience is real, it makes me feel good, or it makes me cringe when I've done wrong. If I make it any more complicated then that I start going in circles.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
Living better than we did drinking makes sobriety easier and life smoother. Not sure why someone would slam AA for providing an avenue for people to pursue that goal.
If lying or sleeping around while drinking created problems and conflicts that hurt people and stopping that behavior in sobriety makes it less likely that the alcoholic will need alcohol for relief, then what's the beef with that? And why would those of us who are living better care in any measure about the distress critics have with a process they are not involved in?
Should I care that they are upset that I'm living better through doing all the AA stuff? Why would I pay any attention to the uninvolved and yet perpetually offended crowd?
If lying or sleeping around while drinking created problems and conflicts that hurt people and stopping that behavior in sobriety makes it less likely that the alcoholic will need alcohol for relief, then what's the beef with that? And why would those of us who are living better care in any measure about the distress critics have with a process they are not involved in?
Should I care that they are upset that I'm living better through doing all the AA stuff? Why would I pay any attention to the uninvolved and yet perpetually offended crowd?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Thanks for this terrific topic. When I got sober I was told that "AA is for people who want it, not for people who need it." The Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, says "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking". And, that the steps are "suggestions" only.
But someone else put it more bluntly: "change or die". Since I was a psychological & spiritual disaster, it seemed like a good idea. I was a typical drunk: enormous ego combined with low self esteem, self-willed, self-centered and grandiose. I'd been lying to myself and others for a long time. If I continued being this person I'd drink again. "The person who comes in these rooms will drink again..."
When I put down alcohol I felt enormous self-hatred, guilt and resentment. Untreated, these emotions will lead me back to a drink quickly. The work I did with a sponsor kept these things in check enough that I didn't drink. The only step I've done perfectly in 20 years is the Step 1: I didn't drink. It's "progress, not perfection."
I've heard that cognitive therapy works great for recovering alcoholics but when I got sober (1991) nobody knew any of this. It's not one size fits all and if the thought of going to AA keeps you from getting sober, an addiction specialist can lay out the options and help come up with a plan that works for you. But in the end, no matter which path we take we must change our insides. The alcohol itself is but a symptom.
I'm an agnostic and my sponsor, with 25 years, is an atheist. I have a higher power and work the steps. Some people in AA say you can't get or stay sober unless you believe in god but that's not true. It's a "higher power as I understand him/her.........."
But someone else put it more bluntly: "change or die". Since I was a psychological & spiritual disaster, it seemed like a good idea. I was a typical drunk: enormous ego combined with low self esteem, self-willed, self-centered and grandiose. I'd been lying to myself and others for a long time. If I continued being this person I'd drink again. "The person who comes in these rooms will drink again..."
When I put down alcohol I felt enormous self-hatred, guilt and resentment. Untreated, these emotions will lead me back to a drink quickly. The work I did with a sponsor kept these things in check enough that I didn't drink. The only step I've done perfectly in 20 years is the Step 1: I didn't drink. It's "progress, not perfection."
I've heard that cognitive therapy works great for recovering alcoholics but when I got sober (1991) nobody knew any of this. It's not one size fits all and if the thought of going to AA keeps you from getting sober, an addiction specialist can lay out the options and help come up with a plan that works for you. But in the end, no matter which path we take we must change our insides. The alcohol itself is but a symptom.
I'm an agnostic and my sponsor, with 25 years, is an atheist. I have a higher power and work the steps. Some people in AA say you can't get or stay sober unless you believe in god but that's not true. It's a "higher power as I understand him/her.........."
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
