Mark75

No one ever told me that, certainly not AA.

Did someone in AA tell you that? If so, ignore them.

BASEjumper

Nope. In fact when I went to AA meetings the guy I was working with told me to take the parts of the program that worked for me and don't worry about the rest. He had been sober in AA for 15 years and I really liked him.

I think an individuals AA expeirence can vary widely depending on the meeting and the peope who make up the group. I bounced around until I found a group I liked, even though after 18 months of sobriety I don't attend AA meetings anymore.

EricL

Not everyone needs to "find god" in order to achieve sobriety, to speculate on a message I never received is futile though.

As for being flawed... absolutely. I most certainly have flaws that I cannot combat on my own-dishonesty, resentment, fear, etc. These are flaws that blocked me from the solution for so long. As the result of not having the solution I have now, I developed alcoholism.

Maybe the confusion is in my use of the word 'flaw'? I do not mean inherently flawed, or imperfect. I simply mean I developed a set of shortcomings or defects over time.

Mark75

Awesome thread... Now I got me some work to do.... LOL

sugarbear1

Double post

sugarbear1

Since it's begining, aa has been bashed by others, especially in widely-read magazines. It was seen as a religious cult, blah bla blah. It's in print, read about it's history.

No matter how we rationalize or minimize, all humans are not perfect. Even if I don't say I did something, it can be a lie by omission. Resentments, entitlements & life can be reasons why alkies drink. Once I drink one, my body looks to drink to a certain point-for me it was "to forget."

There's more to say, so I'll end with aa works for many, but not all alkies. For me, aa saved my life (and I started there 25 years ago). I have 6 solid months of sobriety now.

Whatever works, do it to stay stopped!

06yz125

I'll have to check out that issue of playboy. (For research purposes of course)

Please understand though..my morals would normaly not allow me to view such
disgusting pictures...without calling my sponsor first...LOL

Mark75

Did you do your sex inventory yet? LOL

Pigtails

I guess I'm confused as to why we need to believe in a higher power to better ourselves? What if this is all there is? Isn't that still a reason to live a good life, for ourselves and everyone we love and who loves us?

I would like to believe in something spiritual but find it very hard. Lately my appreciation of life and my desire to make my life the best it can be, and to be grateful instead of anxious, think positively instead of negatively, etc., have been my quests. I don't know how to construct a "higher power" other than those goals, which to me seem like a higher plane on which I had been living before. If that makes sense.

Thank you for the interesting dialogue. I see what you mean and I agree with you about the point of AA. I don't think it means to cut people down, but to lift us up with spirituality. I am really just struggling to define spirituality for myself and to fit it into my life.

DrivenHeart85

Reason #36 why I dropped out of AA...more porn mags, less guilt. lol Totally kidding.

Pigtails

Ha ha. I didn't mean to start a discussion/joke thread about Playboy but I appreciate the laughs. ;-) And in defense of the magazine... I like to read anything and everything and so I often find myself perusing the magazines in my boyfriend's/brother's/guy friend's, etc.'s, bathrooms or living rooms etc. Honestly I don't think the pictures in Playboy are half as explicit as on porn sites online. And to me they are more tastefully done than the photos even in Maxim, even though they show a bit more.

My main reason for liking Playboy though is that it's one of very few popular magazines that still publishes literary short fiction! And it never fails to have interesting, thought-provoking articles and interviews with fascinating people... the latest issue has a great interview with Craig Ferguson (a very smart and funny man), in which he discusses his recovery from alcoholism. (I will admit that the crassness of some of its cartoons/ads, not to mention the overt objectication of women, bothers me... but I have a love/hate relationship with it because of its well-written articles. What a conflicting dilemma, ha ha.)

PS For whoever said try Playgirl--- I read that they stopped publishing it except online--- there's no more magazine version. Which saddens me because I thought about leaving Playgirls laying around to see how my boyfriend would react when I mention that it balances out all the Playboys, ha ha ha.

Mark75

I'm confused about that too, Pigtails, LOL... I don't see it as trying to "better myself" ... I see the search for a higher power as finding serenity and meaning in this world... So that I can be happy... The extended serenity prayer, in fact, has a phrase about being "reasonably happy in this world"

I had trouble with the "reasonably" part, LOL, I mean, how about just being really freaking happy... LOL

Anyway...

You are doing fine... you are searching, asking and struggling to define your higher power... awesome, really, I am not being patronizing... it's the search... seek and you shall find... all of that! I can't define my higher power, so I won't try... it's always changing anyway.

Pigtails

I saw a bumper sticker today that said "The meaning of life is to live it," and I was like, "Yeah, that's very profound." For me the key to trying to find serenity has been acceptance... that I a certain way, that other people are a certain way, that life is a certain way, and that I should just be grateful and enjoy it instead of trying to change everything or focusing on the negative aspects of life or people etc. It was hard for me to realize that "contentment" should be as big of a goal as "joy," because I always thought there was something great and super exciting right ahead around the corner... nothing was ever enough for me. Now I realize I have plenty, and that I don't want to take any of it for granted. Maybe that's my own way of finding "God," I'm not sure.

Terminally Unique

EricL is correct here, and I would add that most of the secular recovery organizations, with the exception of RR, also consider alcoholism a symptom of something else. They simply refer to the cause as "underlying issues" instead of character defects. Both approaches are effectively re-defining the traditional view of alcoholism as sin.

Mark75

Yes. And I can't always say that I am grateful. Gratitude is an often discussed topic... and I have a hard time with it as a concept... hmmm... I think "the meaning of life is living it" is profound as well... and it is an ACTION... note the verb.... living life... what better way to be grateful... using the life we have by just living it...

dbearw

I appreciate this thread as I have been totally into AA and then relapsed (more than once) while really trying to "get" the program. I worked the steps, 3 times back to back, spent countless hours trying to "find" my defects after the glaring ones were out of the way. After each relapse I'd try to dig up every wrong I've ever done, even things like I met this person and could have been a better friend rather than acquaintance if I had been sober, all the times I wasted potential and so on. I think I took it a little too far. Luckily my sponsors didn't let me try to make some crazy amends to people I hardly know.Through therapy I'm learning not to beat myself up, that some of this is just anxiety on my part, and I need to accept my own humanity. All humans have character defects. I'm learning how to lighten up, have a little fun now and then. I think AA is good generally, but I was taking myself a little too seriously.

Pigtails

I can relate to this because I too am over-analytical, angst-ridden, and too hard on myself. On the other hand, I have some serious flaws and have done some majorly wrong things. So I think I need to address the big issues while letting myself slide on some smaller ones. Thanks for the discussion!

ronf

Mornin all, This thread seems to have a number of people struggling with the "God thing" If I may? throw in my 2 cents. I struggled with this for years, my childhood version just wasn't cutting it! I finally accepted my own conscience as my guide. I CAN get my head around the concept that this is my Higher power's? God's? way of dealing with me on a personal level. My conscience is real, it makes me feel good, or it makes me cringe when I've done wrong. If I make it any more complicated then that I start going in circles.

For what it's worth, Ron

ForeverDecember

I'll be an alcoholic my whole life, and hopefully upstanding, morale and honest too; being one doesn't exclude the others.

BASEjumper

That may be the way most community meetings view alcoholism, but I can tell you that is not the way the medical community views it.

Alcoholism is a primary disease, which means it stands on it's own, independent of any other conditions. Alcoholism has sypmtoms, but is not a symptom of something else.

Some people are dual diagnosis, which means they also suffer from anxiety or depression. But you don't get that diagnosis until after you've been sober a while, because alcohol can cause those symptoms.

I don't want people who may be reading this and trying to get sober to think that if they can just figure themselves out, the drinking will simply go away.

There are lots of ways to get sober, and I'm unconcerned which one people choose. But the bottom line is that if you're an alcoholic and you drink you will die.

Do I have flaws, defects? Of course, just like everyone else. I work on self-improvement, and it's a noble goal for a person. But I don't think addressing character issues will save you from an alcoholic death.