Are alcoholism recovery methods similar to political views???
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I guess I always thought that if there were more than one viable option in recovery, that we would've developed some sort of test you could take to see which one would be most effective for your personality type. But maybe no one knows what makes an AA'er different from someone who finds success in non-12 step recovery.
I remember when I was a hardcore Christian oh so many years ago now. I did everything the way I saw other people do it and the way I was told to do it and I never questioned any aspect of it but I demanded everyone else believe the same religion. Then when I got to college, I got a dose of reality and my personality changed and I promised myself to never blindly follow anything again without at some point questioning why I'm doing it and whether or not I truly support it based on my own thinking. AA kind of got around that filter because so many people said it worked and I wanted my life back so desperately.
And yeah, this post is probably a lot of over generalizations but I'm at work and am angry and upset about some new circumstances, so over generalizing about things as a distraction is beating out further rumination on the injustices of the corporate world. lol
I remember when I was a hardcore Christian oh so many years ago now. I did everything the way I saw other people do it and the way I was told to do it and I never questioned any aspect of it but I demanded everyone else believe the same religion. Then when I got to college, I got a dose of reality and my personality changed and I promised myself to never blindly follow anything again without at some point questioning why I'm doing it and whether or not I truly support it based on my own thinking. AA kind of got around that filter because so many people said it worked and I wanted my life back so desperately.
And yeah, this post is probably a lot of over generalizations but I'm at work and am angry and upset about some new circumstances, so over generalizing about things as a distraction is beating out further rumination on the injustices of the corporate world. lol
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Currently addicted and newly-abstinent people are at a time of special vulnerability, beaten down, questioning their own judgment. They are easy prey for anything that appears to help, especially if it avoids permanently quitting for just a little bit longer, even a minute. Hence the appeal of elaborate self-improvement rather than quitting schemes.
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Originally Posted by Ranger 
Unfortunately, it is also natural for a person to not only assume his/her path is right for everyone, but to even feel threatened by those who successfully follow alternate paths (or, said differently, to feel unduly bolstered by the number of people who successfully follow the same path).
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I think people may not realize that the recovery debates that go on here are really just a reflection of how addiction is viewed in society at large. Some view it as a moral issue, others a medical disease, spiritual deficiency, psychological hangup, maladaptive coping mechanism, etc. If you take a close look, you can actually see this reflected in people's posts, and once you do, you can understand what is animating them.
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Yeah, I suppose if you want to assign a solution to a problem, there should be an agreement upon what that problem actually is. lol
My drinking seems like a maladaptive coping mechanism and probably a spiritual issue too. If I didn't think we just lived randomly and died randomly, it'd probably be a little less depressing. lol It's definitely an addiction to an effect for me though. I don't think there are any chemicals in beer that are physically addicting. I just have a lot of freaking obnoxious voices in my head that I like to shut up with beer and since it works so consistently well, I do it all the time. And also since it works so consistently well and I do it all the time, I get fat, tired, crabby, depressed, nauseous, heightened social anxiety, lack of financial freedom, have to switch types of beer all the time because they usually induce nausea after I stick to one brand for too long, I also feel that my life isn't where I want it to be because of the fruit basket of problems listed above. So can I give up my short term wants for my long term wants? Gonna take some work. I can see why the Rational Recovery book called the addictive voice the beast. lol "Here drink this...it tastes awful, will make you vomit and slowly and painfully ruin your life in the long run, but for now it's gonna be a real good time!!!!!" It usually leaves out that first half though...sneaky *******.
Anyway, typing to avoid work again...better get back to that. lol
My drinking seems like a maladaptive coping mechanism and probably a spiritual issue too. If I didn't think we just lived randomly and died randomly, it'd probably be a little less depressing. lol It's definitely an addiction to an effect for me though. I don't think there are any chemicals in beer that are physically addicting. I just have a lot of freaking obnoxious voices in my head that I like to shut up with beer and since it works so consistently well, I do it all the time. And also since it works so consistently well and I do it all the time, I get fat, tired, crabby, depressed, nauseous, heightened social anxiety, lack of financial freedom, have to switch types of beer all the time because they usually induce nausea after I stick to one brand for too long, I also feel that my life isn't where I want it to be because of the fruit basket of problems listed above. So can I give up my short term wants for my long term wants? Gonna take some work. I can see why the Rational Recovery book called the addictive voice the beast. lol "Here drink this...it tastes awful, will make you vomit and slowly and painfully ruin your life in the long run, but for now it's gonna be a real good time!!!!!" It usually leaves out that first half though...sneaky *******.
Anyway, typing to avoid work again...better get back to that. lol
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Politics make my skin crawl less than religion does, so that's why I didn't want to use religion as the example...plus you start saying that recovery is like religion and then someone is going to jump in and say, "OMG, it's not about religion, it's about spirituality!" lol
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*shudders at bible study and fellowship*
I've blended and picked and chose what worked for me. I had a friend who kept failing on another board I visit more frequently who eventually mailed me and asked me about how I built the foundation for my (limited) success (nearing 9 months sober now and I'm VERY happy with how things and my life are going!).
I started laying out to her what I did knowing full well that I didn't follow any program steps specifically. I'll be darned if I didn't start analyzing it and thinking about it that minus the spiritual steps, if I hadn't really followed AA loosely. I don't know if this was sub-consciously or more of a fact that I have a psychology degree and (long winded) I tried to go about things in a way that would make sense from that stand point...and well that's kind of what AA does. Well, let me broaden that out to say just twelve step programs in general.
We got into a "debate" the other day (on said ***** group), however about AA vs SMART, etc. and in the end, we all agreed quite frankly it doesn't freaking matter, as long as you find something that works FOR YOU and gets you sober and happy!!
I've blended and picked and chose what worked for me. I had a friend who kept failing on another board I visit more frequently who eventually mailed me and asked me about how I built the foundation for my (limited) success (nearing 9 months sober now and I'm VERY happy with how things and my life are going!).
I started laying out to her what I did knowing full well that I didn't follow any program steps specifically. I'll be darned if I didn't start analyzing it and thinking about it that minus the spiritual steps, if I hadn't really followed AA loosely. I don't know if this was sub-consciously or more of a fact that I have a psychology degree and (long winded) I tried to go about things in a way that would make sense from that stand point...and well that's kind of what AA does. Well, let me broaden that out to say just twelve step programs in general.
We got into a "debate" the other day (on said ***** group), however about AA vs SMART, etc. and in the end, we all agreed quite frankly it doesn't freaking matter, as long as you find something that works FOR YOU and gets you sober and happy!!
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Choose a program -- any program. Give it 110%. Evaluate the results. If it doesn't work for you, choose another program. Give it 110%. Evaluate the results. Keep doing this until you find something that works for you. That would be my suggestion. Susan
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Originally Posted by choublak
I would have said, similar to some religious groups.
In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit Court ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:
Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
— Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007.
Althogh these rulings are concerned with mandated attendance as directed by the courts. I having a background in religious studies have personally concluded that AA is "religious in nature" yet AA is not a religious institution. Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
— Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz
All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:
the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, September 7, 2007.
When a couple billion of religious people practice prayer and engage in the practice of acknowledging God as the highest authority of everything in life and AA has discussions, suggestions, literature concerning God/HP's and prayer...well its rings of a religious nature to me.
As with most everything in life, interpretation is everything. Along with that, there never seems to be a lack of conflict even with the simplest things in life. So there will be, as I understand it, a ongoing conflict between people with different POV's. IMO, spirituality in its vast array of forms has been a subject of heated discussion from those that have been established in religious beliefs
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Yes, Zencat, courts which have considered the issue have uniformly decided that 12 step programs are religious for purposes of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. In some jurisdictions, prison officials can be held liable for money damages for requiring 12 step attendance without offering non-faith-based alternatives. Here is an excerpt from the Second Circuit's ruling in one of the seminal cases, Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 115 F.3d 1068 (2nd Cir.1997), affirmed, Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 173 F.3d 120 (2nd Cir.1999), cert. denied sub nom. Orange County Dept. of Probation v. Warner, 528 U.S. 1003 (1999).
"The County also argues that forcing Warner to attend Alcoholics Anonymous did not violate the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. We disagree. The Supreme Court has repeatedly made clear that "at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so.' " Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 587, 112 S.Ct. 2649, 2655, 120 L.Ed.2d 467 (1992)......
The A.A. program to which Warner was exposed had a substantial religious component. Participants were told to pray to God for help in overcoming their affliction. Meetings opened and closed with group prayer. The trial judge reasonably found that it "placed a heavy emphasis on spirituality and prayer, in both conception and in practice." We have no doubt that the meetings Warner attended were intensely religious events.
There can be no doubt, furthermore, that Warner was coerced into participating in these religious exercises by virtue of his probation sentence. Neither the probation recommendation, nor the court's sentence, offered Warner any choice among therapy programs. The probation department's policy, its recommendation, and its printed form all directly recommended A.A. therapy to the sentencing judge, without suggesting that the probationer might have any option to select another therapy program, free of religious content. Once sentenced, Warner had little choice but to attend the A.A. sessions. If Warner had failed to attend A.A., he would have been subject to imprisonment for violation of probation. See N.Y. Penal Law §§ 60.01(4), 65.00(2) (McKinney 1987); N.Y. Veh. & Traf. Law §§ 511(2), 1192(1) (McKinney 1986 & Supp.1996).
Had Warner been offered a reasonable choice of therapy providers, so that he was not compelled by the state's judicial power to enter a religious program, the considerations would be altogether different."
115 F.3d 1068: Robert Warner, Plaintiff-appellee, v. Orange County Department of Probation, Defendant-appellant :: US Court of Appeals Cases :: Justia
"The County also argues that forcing Warner to attend Alcoholics Anonymous did not violate the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. We disagree. The Supreme Court has repeatedly made clear that "at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so.' " Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 587, 112 S.Ct. 2649, 2655, 120 L.Ed.2d 467 (1992)......
The A.A. program to which Warner was exposed had a substantial religious component. Participants were told to pray to God for help in overcoming their affliction. Meetings opened and closed with group prayer. The trial judge reasonably found that it "placed a heavy emphasis on spirituality and prayer, in both conception and in practice." We have no doubt that the meetings Warner attended were intensely religious events.
There can be no doubt, furthermore, that Warner was coerced into participating in these religious exercises by virtue of his probation sentence. Neither the probation recommendation, nor the court's sentence, offered Warner any choice among therapy programs. The probation department's policy, its recommendation, and its printed form all directly recommended A.A. therapy to the sentencing judge, without suggesting that the probationer might have any option to select another therapy program, free of religious content. Once sentenced, Warner had little choice but to attend the A.A. sessions. If Warner had failed to attend A.A., he would have been subject to imprisonment for violation of probation. See N.Y. Penal Law §§ 60.01(4), 65.00(2) (McKinney 1987); N.Y. Veh. & Traf. Law §§ 511(2), 1192(1) (McKinney 1986 & Supp.1996).
Had Warner been offered a reasonable choice of therapy providers, so that he was not compelled by the state's judicial power to enter a religious program, the considerations would be altogether different."
115 F.3d 1068: Robert Warner, Plaintiff-appellee, v. Orange County Department of Probation, Defendant-appellant :: US Court of Appeals Cases :: Justia
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth
Yes, Zencat, courts which have considered the issue have uniformly decided that 12 step programs are religious for purposes of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Silkworth.net, an unabashedly pro-AA web site, has a very interesting article titled "Spiritual, not Religious" which references the ruling from the case of GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN.
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While I go to AA, the great majority of countries do not have widespread AA meetings. Maybe England but the U.S. is the "home" of AA. In Russia, people are hypnotized to stop drinking. AA was deemed too religious in the old communist Soviet Union. Of course, Russia has a HUGE alcohol/drug problem today.
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Originally Posted by Justfor1
While I go to AA, the great majority of countries do not have widespread AA meetings. Maybe England but the U.S. is the "home" of AA. In Russia, people are hypnotized to stop drinking. AA was deemed too religious in the old communist Soviet Union. Of course, Russia has a HUGE alcohol/drug problem today.
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