MickeyAnMeisce

Terminally Unique-

How do you think people would if they were actually power less over their DOC?

BackToSquareOne

If you cut to the chase isn't the real question "Does the concept of powerlessness supersede free will". From a biological point of view we know that very real changes occur in the brain in addictions. The screwed up brain chemistry, the THIQ and all the other things that can be proven by modern science make it crystal clear that the cravings are very real and often overpowering for the addict. But again is it really fair to put forth the proposition that intense cravings overpower free will?

Terminally Unique

How would they what?

MickeyAnMeisce

Proof read before posting.

How would people behave if they were powerless over their DOC?

HuskyPup

This has always seemed quite the reverse to me...almost everyone I have known with a drinking problem seems to operate from the standpoint that they are helpless in a world of forces more powerful than they are, and in this sense, they 'give up', and resign themselves to drinking, to being dis-empowered as opposed to empowered. In an existential sense, 'alcoholic' seems to be a kind of life-script or 'game' played from the standpoint of 'I am powerless, thus I am blameless.'

The idea that there are things more 'powerful' than me has never been one I have questioned: Hurricanes, earthquakes, atomic bombs, armies, growing old and one day ceasing to live, the inability to 'cure' various diseases such as caner, the random nature of how things happen, the forces of entropy and decay, chaos theory, evolution, the big bang, high-tension power-lines with millions of volts of electricity are all things I would consider more powerful than me, to name a few.

I am not sure why it is so often said people with a drinking problem think there is nothing more powerful than themselves, as I have seldom if ever noted an example of this line of thinking.

Terminally Unique

No legitimate religion advocates the surrender of free will in order to restrain base urges, certainly not to a Styrofoam cup, a doorknob, a bedpan, a coke can, a radiator, a light bulb, or a group of drunks. I think you mentioned before that you are Catholic, so I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from the following, but it doesn't sound like powerlessness to me.

From Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section One, Chapter One, Article 3 ("Man's Freedom"):

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother's exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.

Terminally Unique

If I had to guess, precisely as they do in recovery groups today, engaging in endless rituals to ward off the desire to get drunk or high. Either that or simply resigning themselves to their fate like the character Ben Sanderson in "Leaving Las Vegas."

DayTrader

I didn't suggest you're killing alkies..... and I like your message.........

What I said was give it some thought.

...and believe me, I'm far less dogmatic than I appear.

What I'm suggesting is that while they may reach their own conclusion soon enough.......they may not. And even if they DO reach it sooner or later, why would I want to have anything to do with prolonging someone's happiness?

I went to a funeral this past Sunday evening for a 24yr old who never was able to reach the conclusion that he was powerless over booze and heroine. I didn't know him personally but his dad is a friend of mine in recovery. He (the son) was in therapy, went through rehab 3x I believe (maybe 2....), had support groups, even hit up some meetings....... he was convinced he could, one of these days, think himself into sobriety.

All I'm saying is that maybe......for some ppl.....telling them to "just swim......swim.......you can do it.......ca-mon.....SWIM!!!" isn't going to work - IF they don't know how to swim - in other words.....if they don't have the ability (aka - the power) to swim. If that's the case......and we never know who those folks are in advance.....then we all need to mind the message we're carrying. It's just something to be cognizant of. It's something I try to be cognizant of anyway.

DayTrader

Heh.... I'll give you that ppl SAY they're not the be-all and the end-all......but watch their actions. Often that'll tell you a completely different story.

Simplistically, if I say I'm a good guy and that I'd never rob you......but then I rob you the next day......what's the reality? Obviously, that I'm a thief. Even though I've told you and everyone around me that I'm not. Heck.....I probably don't even believe I'm a crook......even as I'm in the act of robbing you blind. ---> that's the sort of stuff I "see" all the time in recovery circles. Folks being 100% convinced of one thing but, in their actions, proving something altogether different.

I see this sort of stuff all the time in AA - among the "solid" members as well as the newcomers. Hell, I see it in my OWN darn life all the time too - bouts of hypocrisy based upon a delusion.

BackToSquareOne

I don't get how it follows that someone had no free will because they made bad choices.

DayTrader

heh.....good that you don't see that......cuz it doesn't make sense and it's not reality.

there is, however, a difference between losing free will and not having the ability to make certain choices.

Boleo

STOP MAKING SENSE!

You are making the assumption that alcohol-ISM makes sense. I myself am powerless over alcohol because I have lost the power of choice when it comes to picking up that first drink.

So does that mean I must drink again? If "I" were the only power between me and the first drink, I would have to drink it. It makes no sense what-so-ever how am staying sober. My sobriety is a by-product of spiritual fitness. When I am spiritually fit, the "Addictive Voice" is dead silent. It does not even begin to tempt me. The spiritual solution that I have found has nothing to do with me drinking or not-drinking. The need for me making the choice in the first place is simply no longer there. If you want to make sense of that, good luck. It is a Zen concept:

DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT!

:rotfxko

DayTrader

I could also add that if one HAS power of their drug of choice....then it's truly a drug of choice.

If, on the other hand, one is powerless and/or has lost the power or choice....it's no longer a drug of choice but a drug of no-choice.

Mark75

Wow... This is gettin' good!!! Thanx everyone.

Yes, as I understand free will, in a religious context anyway... we must come to God of our own free will... and that as we live in the spirit, we do so by our own free will.

So, then does Free Will = Power? If we have free will, then do we by definition have the power to always make the right choice? Is alcoholism, willed? Certainly it is an effect...

I don't know, I am just asking the questions. If we as recovering alcoholics in the 12 step program, cede our will to our higher power (as per Boleo), in terms of our alcoholism (or cravings as per BacktoSquareOne), isn't that an act of free will?

I hope that made some sense... I am getting in over my head theologically and philosophically, though I am enjoying the discussion.

BackToSquareOne

It seems to be a bit of an oxymoron to suggest that one can have free will and be powerless at the same time. It is however obvious that diseases of addiction can greatly diminish ones capacity to make rational decisions, the pull of the addiction can be very compelling.

Boleo

That is such a deep question that only a Cabalist would even try to answer it.

To give you an idea what Cabalism would say of free-will, there are only 3 ways to exercise freewill;

1. Give in
2. Give up
3. Give to (others)

In other words, only through "giving" do we exercise free-will.

Mark75

soberlicious

This is true for me too, but in my case it is not a by-product of my "spiritual fitness".

either way we are both free.

and that's beautiful...

polaris

Sorry I havent read most of this thread, but...

Perhaps admitting being "powerless" over something you have countless times over failed to control when you originally intended to do so? If you have a long record of failure at doing that, then it may be most logical (obviously addiction and emotions so often override logic) decision would be to abstain-which I see as the equivalent of the admission of being "powerless". Much easier said than done obviously- alcoholics wouldnt exist if it were so simple/easy, and its a shame it isnt.

MickeyAnMeisce

This is not consistent with the Fourth, Fifth, Eighth, and Ninth Steps.

This is how you claim that people who believe that they are powerless over alcohol behave. How would people who are actually powerless over alcohol behave?