MickeyAnMeisce

But obsessions and compulsions, at least when part of a psychiatric disorder, are profoundly ego dystonic (i.e., they do not fit with the person's perceptions of him or herself). In fact, the ego dystonia experienced during obsessions and compulsions is a distinguishing characteristic of obsessive-compulsive disorder with respect to obsessive-compulsive personality disorder.

I think that it is an oversimplification to say that people are going to insist that their behavior is part of their perception of self, especially in order to defend continuing self-destructive practices.

Mark75

Well, TU, I think you minimize this re-acclimation thing. Habits and compulsions and addictions may lie within the same spectrum ... But, are you comparing habitual Internet surfing with alcoholism, or cutting or whatever? I don't understand.

OceanSize

Hi. I'm on step 1, and 40 days sober.

for the last 40 days the the only thing that has kept me from getting a glass of wine at a coffee shop (instead of coffee) is the powerlessness that is required for me to surrender.

Thus far, this is the only thing that has worked. I am taking this slowly.

I discovered the Step 1 prayer last night (and let me tell you, this is not a religious thing for me, as i am not religious - and never thought I'd be so moved by prayer) (but I am... and also, prayer, even though i've never been a religious person, is the only other thing that has helped over the last 40 days)

this prayer associated with Step 1 has kept me afloat today. This morning i said it out loud numerous times, in tears, and then again out loud at a meeting.

anyway, this prayer relieved me of some fears today, and got me out of my head, humbled me enough to feel safe for the day:
it really worked for me. Today at least (and last night).

In addition to surrender, I think the key part of powerlessness is unmanageability, which is the second part of the sentence in step 1 and seems to hold true for we alcoholics. The disease of alcoholism can yield a dry drunk, too.

MickeyAnMeisce

I think it might be important (or at least interesting) here to distinguish between an impulsive action and a compulsive action. The former is performed almost with any conscious thought, whereas the latter is performed after much thought to the contrary.

For instance (TMI ALERT), my many revolting habits include nose-picking and nail-biting. I recently went through some stressful experiences in my life and I took up these activities with much more gusto that I usually engage in them. There was, though, a distinct difference in the mode of engagement. On the one hand, I would often wake up in the middle of the night to find myself, before my eyes had adjusted to the dark, in the process of sticking my finger up my nose despite the fact that, by that time, I was picking my nose until it bled. On the other hand, my nails a have gone quite long (though still within the realm of social acceptability), but I have developed a whole new set of behaviors pertaining to my nails. In other words my nose-picking strikes me as impulsive and my nail biting as compulsive.

I apologize in I have disgusted anyone too much.

Terminally Unique

It is just one behavior of mine that I came up with, since all my other vices were chemically induced, and we are talking about the human ability to not yield to desire. But, no, I am not minimizing the re-acclimation period, I am just saying that because it is difficult to re-acclimate does not mean that it is not possible.

It took a good 4-5 months for my head to start to clear after my final alcohol detox, with cravings/desire every day that felt like it was coming from my bones. Horrific depression, insomnia, etc. I never felt anything like it before; even the smoking couldn't even compare. Yet, I trudged on, regardless. No one is powerless over desire unless they believe that they are, which is of course what addiction causes someone to believe, but it is an illusion.

Where there is a sick will, there is always a way.

soberlicious

exactly...which is why they create so much pain and suffering for people. Um...if they were not ego dystonic, then there would be no reason to stop them. If my compulsion fits with my belief of who I am and it's okie dokie with me, not likely a need to change it then, right?

I didn't say one would hold these beliefs on purpose in order to continue self-destructive practices. I said believing the compulsions are bigger than me and that there is no way to stop them leaves me feeling hopeless and unable to take any action at all. Thus the compulsion continues until I've finally lost my mind over it.

Mark75

I've enjoyed this discussion and I'd like to say that I understand this thing a little better, but I don't. I don't really need to. I tend to over think things and just find myself back where I started.

My experience with this is that the powerlessness thing was not as important as what I had to do... to deal with that desire, as you say. I found I could not think it away, bargain it away, and the harder I tried, the worse it got, that desire, or the self pity thing, the resentment, whatever... Because I did feel powerless in the face of that desire, at least early on. That I'd either drink again or be forever miserable.

I found the solution, but we discuss that in another section of this forum

Thanks for sharing your experience, TU. (I always think of Trout Unlimited when I see TU... LOL) I appreciate it.

DayTrader

Heh.......sheesh, and I had such a good response for "powerless over every thing" and whether it's an absolute or not --- but then you went and further clarified your original post. lol.

...and fwiw, I'm not powerless over ppl, places and/or things... ppl say that in meetings and it's rubbish.....er.....it's certainly not part of the AA program anyway. Perhaps they haven't worked the program yet, haven't received any power outside of themselves yet, haven't found a power by which they can live their life happily and are still trying to rely only on their own abilities (which probably aren't cutting the mustard) and therefore are still completely powerless...... I dunno about you guys but my life sucked when I was mired in booze and untreated alcoholism. If life doesn't get better in sobriety, then why even do it, yanno? *as was said earlier though, not being completely powerless doesn't, in any way, make me completely powerFUL either. There is "grey area" in there.......it's funny how we tend to look for the extremes though - totally powerful or totally powerless.


Anyway, powerless over booze..... 2 answers for that one.
1. OF my own power, will, desire, mental defense, thinking through the drink, etc etc.... no power for me. I've tried that stuff and a gazillion others yet always ended up drinking again and, once I start......it's game over.
2. I've found some "new" power though...found a way to tap into it......and with THAT power, I've not had to pick up a drink/drug since. Does that make me powerful? I suppose it does. But remember, it's not MY power that worked. The "difference maker" was that outside power. Without it, I'm certain to be headed right back to where I was prior to sobriety --> alcoholic death.

DayTrader

Hmm, don't think I'm with ya on that one.

It certainly isn't my experience anyway. I suppose though, if you've not had the experience of being powerless over alcohol before it really would seem to be an illusion that ppl sort-of talk themselves into.

I'm able to "choose" to not use drugs in spite of having a pretty serious drug habit for several years) and have been able to claim my power sufficiently enough to keep from getting high......but those exact same tools never worked in regards to booze. I'm also able to exercise power when it comes to gambling - I'm not a compulsive "addicted" gambler. That said, I know folks who are able to exercise power and control over drinking but NOT over drugs.....or NOT over gambling. In those areas, for them, they're just as powerless as I am in the booze arena. I'm not trying to prove you wrong TU, but I can tell you that your statement doesn't jive with what I've experienced first hand (nor does it jive with a whole lotta ppl I know in recovery).

I guess I'd be careful making such sweeping generalizations.......

SoberAtheist

I don't think its absolute at all. In theory, you could be powerless over one thing and not over another.

But the biggest problem is in the definition of the term. The term means different things to different people. Are you referring to being powerless over alcohol? If powerless means 'to have no power', does this mean to have no power to resist, control or both? In this context, i had the power to do both at various times in my drinking. On many occasions i made a conscious choice to continue drinking, although my capacity to make a balanced assessment of my choices was impacted by my addiction. In summary, i was not powerless over alcohol - although i had less ability to resist and control than someone who was not addicted.

If you are referring to be powerless over everything, once again i would have to say i am not. Unless you are discussing powerless in the context of free will versus determinimism (and arguing a deterministic viewpoint), we exercise power every day in many contexts.

Also, Step 2 really needs to stipulate in what respect something is more powerful. A styrofoam cup is more powerful than me in its ability to hold scalding hot liquids.

DayTrader

I actually like that it specifically does NOT specify what that power has to be. Heck, just the mention of there being anything more powerful than the typical alkie sends most of them running like they're on fire.

....and fwiw, I've seen the "Styrofoam cup" deal work in that just by the person not relying on their own power (and the mismanagement, abuse, over-confidence in it) they start to get better. Sometimes no manager is better than a really bad manager, yanno?

NYCDoglvr

In the first step -- "powerless over alcohol" -- it refers to not being able to control my intake. When I pick up a drink I can't stop.

Boleo

I agree, but language does not seem to be getting the job done here. So here is my view of powerlessness vs new found Higher Power:

yin-yang-symbol.jpg

Terminally Unique

A Styrofoam cup? Not that I haven't heard worse, but recovery G-d talk is truly banal, if not downright heretical.

Mark75

Sure, some of the God talk in recovery makes me crazy too, TU... Heretical? IDK. I think DayTrader has it exactly right when he says no management is better than really bad management with people hopelessly addicted or alcoholic.

We discussed that re-acclimation and the desire thing... Addiction is so strong in some that the urge, well, need to get that next drink, to satisfy, the midbrain, or whatever, the powerlessness, we need to get ourselves out of the number one position, to sublimate that desire, to detach as Boleo says... Cede control...

Yea, the styrofoam cup as a higher power is ridiculous... But it works, apparently, for some.

keithj

Yes, it refers to that physical craving for more once I've started drinking. But, it also refers to the mental obsession. Despite my best effort, despite my honest desire to never drink again, despite my already learned lesson of putting my hand on the hot stove, I would pick up a drink again.

The book spends a couple chapters talking about the mental obsession as being the real problem for the alcoholic. AA is very clear on this in our literature, and there is no debate about what powerless means in the AA program.

If my problem is that I can't stop once I start, then my solution is easy. Don't ever pick up a drink. That's a complete solution and it works for many people. No higher power needed. AA is concerned, however, with that alcoholic that doesn't have the power to NOT pick up a drink.

DayTrader

^^^^^took the words out of my mouth......er, um......off my keyboard.

Terminally Unique

He does have a point.

MickeyAnMeisce

I misspoke. In anxiety disorders, like OCD, the obsessions and compulsions are ego dystonic; whereas, in personality disorders, like OCPD, the obsessions and compulsions are ego syntonic. For instance, on the one hand, someone suffering from OCD would see compulsive list making interfering with his or her life; while, on the other hand, a someone suffering from OCPD would see the same compulsive list making as being essential to managing his or her life efficiently.


The neurology of OCD suggests that the obsessions originate in areas of the brain that are not under conscious control. So, while one may be able to redirect the compulsive behavior, the obsession that causes the desire to perform the compulsion is still there.

Terminally Unique

Oh, I had many reversals of intent, where I drank again in spite of my better judgment, before I wised up and stopped trying to remember the bad stuff ("thinking the drink through") in order to not do it again. Whenever I used that method, I would inevitably always "forget" the bad stuff, and eventually I'd be back to the races.

That passage from Page 24 of the BB, 1st Ed - "We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago" - is not uncommon. Every addicted person experiences this phenomenon.

This does not, in and of itself, prove powerlessness and lack of choice, however. Neither do addicted people talk themselves into it, the addiction will take care of that. It does not, however, need further reinforcement, and I've seen many free-fall-to-bottom on account of this. Indeed, I almost died believing it myself.

Yes, yes, I know, I'm killing real alcoholics. The thing is, if someone is truly powerless over their desire to drink, what I say won't matter, will it? They will reach their own conclusion soon enough.

One of the interesting things I discovered is that many of the by-the-book solution-based AA types don't seem to mind my message. Some have even (secretly) told me to keep it up, intuitively sensing that it trims the fat, so to speak.