View Poll Results: Now that you have quit, do you still consider yourself an alcoholic/addict?
YES - I still consider myself an alcoholic/addict.
121
82.88%
NO - I do not consider myself an alcoholic/addict.
25
17.12%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll
RE: Addict Identity
Hard drinkers:
"Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason—ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor—becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention."
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For an alcoholic of my variety, moral and philosophical convictions galore have proven themselves to be insufficient; hence the existence of alcoholic/addict philosophers, psychiatrists and psychologists, priests, ministers and rabbis.
A passage from the most successful book on alcoholism in the world (the Big Book) springs to mind:
"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn’t there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly."
A passage from the most successful book on alcoholism in the world (the Big Book) springs to mind:
"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn’t there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly."
To those who doubt its effectiveness, all I can say is, you would probably have to experience this fundamental change in perspective to understand it. I suspect those who say they've had a spiritual awakening must feel the same way when people doubt them.
I still get thoughts of drinking every so often, to be sure, but they pale in comparison to those first 90 days, where the cravings felt like they were coming from my bones. I now have a mental defense which has become almost like a reflex, much like dropping a hot potato. The downside to it is that I now hear the "Addictive Voice" in many of the posts I read. :-)
I am not a hard drinker -- I am something else, which is a real alcoholic. If you are a hard drinker and you have found an approach that works for you, I am happy to hear it, and I wish you well.
However, if you are a hard drinker rather than a real alcoholic, I might ask you to consider that it could be harmful to tell real alcoholics, many of whom are just beginning to seek help, that they are just like you, that they will be fine if they just do what a hard drinker does to stop, and that alcoholism, as I know alcoholism to be, can be overcome by "thinking my way out of it according to my own will power," or other suggestions similar to those found in your signature.
If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick. Alcoholism is a frequently fatal illness; I pray that you take this into consideration in the new line of morality that you suggest is managing to keep you sober. Just as I won't tell a stomach cancer patient that he doesn't need treatment because my own stomach problems cleared up the good old fashioned way at home, I propose that the fact that you may be a hard drinker does not mean that alcoholism doesn't exist, or that treatment for non-alcoholics will ever be sufficient for real alcoholics when the graveyards are full of people who prove that theory to be tragically flawed.
If you are a hard drinker, I'm sure your experience can be very helpful to other hard drinkers -- I would support you in that all the way. On a similar note, if you are so sure you are not a real alcoholic, perhaps it would be best to allow real alcoholics in recovery to show real alcoholics what has worked, and continues to work, for them. There is a solution, it works, and it's a life saver for others as sick as I have been.
Best wishes to you in all ways.
However, if you are a hard drinker rather than a real alcoholic, I might ask you to consider that it could be harmful to tell real alcoholics, many of whom are just beginning to seek help, that they are just like you, that they will be fine if they just do what a hard drinker does to stop, and that alcoholism, as I know alcoholism to be, can be overcome by "thinking my way out of it according to my own will power," or other suggestions similar to those found in your signature.
If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick. Alcoholism is a frequently fatal illness; I pray that you take this into consideration in the new line of morality that you suggest is managing to keep you sober. Just as I won't tell a stomach cancer patient that he doesn't need treatment because my own stomach problems cleared up the good old fashioned way at home, I propose that the fact that you may be a hard drinker does not mean that alcoholism doesn't exist, or that treatment for non-alcoholics will ever be sufficient for real alcoholics when the graveyards are full of people who prove that theory to be tragically flawed.
If you are a hard drinker, I'm sure your experience can be very helpful to other hard drinkers -- I would support you in that all the way. On a similar note, if you are so sure you are not a real alcoholic, perhaps it would be best to allow real alcoholics in recovery to show real alcoholics what has worked, and continues to work, for them. There is a solution, it works, and it's a life saver for others as sick as I have been.
Best wishes to you in all ways.
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Is it true, that if you are a full blow alcoholic, as it is defined in the "big book," that the only solution is a 12 step one? And if you do not use a 12 step method, and succeed, you are not an alcoholic? Does AA help heavy drinkers? Can I tiptoe the line ....
And where is the poll?
And where is the poll?
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Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
SteppingItUp,
I have to say, you are unusually polite and tempered in your response - not the usual "you are killing alcoholics and I hope you get cancer" I might normally get.
I don't know, I might have been a hard drinker for a few years in the beginning, when I just drank every day, but not all day. I just can't fathom a hard drinker doing what I did for almost two years by the end. Drink whiskey all day every day, often without food, until passing out, wake up, throw up from the drinking, then drink again anyway right after, straining to keep it down, because the misery was too much. Repeat ad nauseum, or until the booze runs out.
I am mindful that the suggestion in my signature is in contradiction to the usual, but that is intentional. Listening to information about how I was diseased, powerless, and could have no effective mental defense helped keep me very sick indeed. It was only when I finally stopped listening that I got better.
I won't say that I haven't seen alcoholics die, because I have, and more so once I started attending AA.
I have seen people get better in AA, just as I have seen people get worse while in AA. If AA can keep you sober, I don't begrudge your solution, nor would I tell you to stop using it. My interest is in those people who cannot be helped by AA, particularly the ones who have already tried its solution and were unsuccessful.
I have to say, you are unusually polite and tempered in your response - not the usual "you are killing alcoholics and I hope you get cancer" I might normally get.
However, if you are a hard drinker rather than a real alcoholic, I might ask you to consider that it could be harmful to tell real alcoholics, many of whom are just beginning to seek help, that they are just like you, that they will be fine if they just do what a hard drinker does to stop, and that alcoholism, as I know alcoholism to be, can be overcome by "thinking my way out of it according to my own will power," or other suggestions similar to those found in your signature.
If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick.
If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick.
Alcoholism is a frequently fatal illness; I pray that you take this into consideration in the new line of morality that you suggest is managing to keep you sober. Just as I won't tell a stomach cancer patient that he doesn't need treatment because my own stomach problems cleared up the good old fashioned way at home, I propose that the fact that you may be a hard drinker does not mean that alcoholism doesn't exist, or that treatment for non-alcoholics will ever be sufficient for real alcoholics when the graveyards are full of people who prove that theory to be tragically flawed.
If you are a hard drinker, I'm sure your experience can be very helpful to other hard drinkers -- I would support you in that all the way. On a similar note, if you are so sure you are not a real alcoholic, perhaps it would be best to allow real alcoholics in recovery to show real alcoholics what has worked, and continues to work, for them. There is a solution, it works, and it's a life saver for others as sick as I have been.
Best wishes to you in all ways.
Best wishes to you in all ways.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Moscow-Pullman Greater Metropolitan Area, WA
Posts: 107
Of course you didn't. I was making an analogy. Diabetes is like alcoholism in that it is an incurable disease, yet no-one disputes that diabetes is a disease.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Yes, diabetes can be treated with pharmaceuticals, but it usually doesn't remit under treatment like bacterial infections do under antibiotics.
Acamprosate (Campral) therapy is also effective, as well as Campral-disulfiram (Anabuse) therapy.
Abstinence is not a cure. A cure returns the body to a non-pathological state. The brain is permanently adapted by the use of the chemical of dependence and does not return to its non-pathological state even with continued abstinence.
Abstinence is not a cure. A cure returns the body to a non-pathological state. The brain is permanently adapted by the use of the chemical of dependence and does not return to its non-pathological state even with continued abstinence.
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The brain does return to its non-pathological state with continued abstinence. The brain will adapt in order to maintain homeoestasis, just as it always does. If it did not adapt in response to a change in homeoestasis, whether by addition or sudden removal of a foreign chemical, no one would ever become chemically dependent, nor would anyone ever experience withdrawal.
Last edited by cece1960; 07-06-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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AVRT-
Do you actually have any evidence that the brain returns to a non-pathological state during abstinence?
Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:
Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse
(Emphasis added)
Do you actually have any evidence that the brain returns to a non-pathological state during abstinence?
Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:
Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse
Originally Posted by Breese et al (2010)
Alcoholism is a chronic relapsing disorder. Major characteristics observed in alcoholics during an initial period of alcohol abstinence are altered physiological functions and a negative emotional state. Evidence suggests that a persistent, cumulative adaptation involving a kindling/allostasis-like process occurs during the course of repeated chronic alcohol exposures that is critical for the negative symptoms observed during alcohol withdrawal. Basic studies have provided evidence for specific neurotransmitters within identified brain sites being responsible for the negative emotion induced by the persistent cumulative adaptation following intermittent-alcohol exposures. After an extended period of abstinence, the cumulative alcohol adaptation increases susceptibility to stress- and alcohol cue-induced negative symptoms and alcohol seeking, both of which can facilitate excessive ingestion of alcohol. In the alcoholic, stressful imagery and alcohol cues alter physiological responses, enhance negative emotion, and induce craving. Brain fMRI imaging following stress and alcohol cues has documented neural changes in specific brain regions of alcoholics not observed in social drinkers. Such altered activity in brain of abstinent alcoholics to stress and alcohol cues is consistent with a continuing ethanol adaptation being responsible. Therapies in alcoholics found to block responses to stress and alcohol cues would presumably be potential treatments by which susceptibility for continued alcohol abuse can be reduced. By continuing to define the neurobiological basis of the sustained alcohol adaptation critical for the increased susceptibility of alcoholics to stress and alcohol cues that facilitate craving, a new era is expected to evolve in which the high rate of relapse in alcoholism is minimized.
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Do you actually have any evidence that the brain returns to a non-pathological state during abstinence?
Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:
Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse
Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:
Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse
Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
If you want pretty brain PET and fMRI scans, though, there is this article from TIME, although you'll have to read almost to the end where they scan the guy to see if he is "triggered" by a beer, and he isn't. Of course, even if he was "triggered," meaning he really, really, really, wanted it and his brain lit up like a Christmas tree, still does not mean that he has to actually drink said beer.
How We get Addicted
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Nothing in that article says the brain will never return to a non-pathological state. It only describes a susceptibility to stress "during an initial period of alcohol abstinence."
Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
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Location: Moscow-Pullman Greater Metropolitan Area, WA
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Nothing in that article says the brain will never return to a non-pathological state. It only describes a susceptibility to stress "during an initial period of alcohol abstinence."
Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
If you want pretty brain PET and fMRI scans, though, there is this article from TIME, although you'll have to read almost to the end where they scan the guy to see if he is "triggered" by a beer, and he isn't. Of course, even if he was "triggered," meaning he really, really, really, wanted it and his brain lit up like a Christmas tree, still does not mean that he has to actually drink said beer.
How We get Addicted
Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
If you want pretty brain PET and fMRI scans, though, there is this article from TIME, although you'll have to read almost to the end where they scan the guy to see if he is "triggered" by a beer, and he isn't. Of course, even if he was "triggered," meaning he really, really, really, wanted it and his brain lit up like a Christmas tree, still does not mean that he has to actually drink said beer.
How We get Addicted
That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
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It's hilarious (and a bit frightening) how quickly you dismiss cutting-edge medical research for anecdotes and personal experience. Yes, your experience may be that you were able to quit by making a firm promise to yourself to never drink again, but that does not mean that substance dependence does not permanently alter neurochemistry and neuroanatomy in such a way that increases the probability of relapse.
That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
And labels are just means of categorizing in an effort to have efficient communication between groups of people... whatever someone has to tell themself to get sober really is what's important, I think. Labels or no labels... I didn't go into grad school because I became disillusioned by labels (and I thought I was going to be a rock star, but I quickly learned otherwise)... what a silly reason not to further my education.
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It's hilarious (and a bit frightening) how quickly you dismiss cutting-edge medical research for anecdotes and personal experience. Yes, your experience may be that you were able to quit by making a firm promise to yourself to never drink again, but that does not mean that substance dependence does not permanently alter neurochemistry and neuroanatomy in such a way that increases the probability of relapse.
That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
You were, in effect, trying to knock my knees out from under me by trying to convince me that I can't possibly abstain for the rest of my life because my brain is permanently altered. You can keep at it, but I can guarantee you that it won't work. I do have to wonder why you would be inclined to do such a thing, though. Perhaps you want me to drink again?
Just how does telling people that they will relapse, or that they will have a higher probability of relapse, help their long-term sobriety? You don't think that it just might be setting them up for failure? Telling people "you will relapse" does not help them.
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Most of us promised ourselves to stop drinking many, many times and failed to keep that promise...but we kept waking up and saying this time it will be different, i will succeed whilst making no changes whatsoever to our "plan of change"...it's called insanity...some of us only recognised we had done this once we got help and got sober, so the last thing that we would need to here is "this time you can do it" or "just stop drinking" and all that BS!
If you have woken up one morning and stopped drinking on willpower alone then all power to you but that "road to recovery" won't help most people...that's what is being implied here...
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You obviously have a very different experience to most of us!
Most of us promised ourselves to stop drinking many, many times and failed to keep that promise...but we kept waking up and saying this time it will be different, i will succeed whilst making no changes whatsoever to our "plan of change"...it's called insanity...some of us only recognised we had done this once we got help and got sober, so the last thing that we would need to here is "this time you can do it" or "just stop drinking" and all that BS!
If you have woken up one morning and stopped drinking on willpower alone then all power to you but that "road to recovery" won't help most people...that's what is being implied here...
Most of us promised ourselves to stop drinking many, many times and failed to keep that promise...but we kept waking up and saying this time it will be different, i will succeed whilst making no changes whatsoever to our "plan of change"...it's called insanity...some of us only recognised we had done this once we got help and got sober, so the last thing that we would need to here is "this time you can do it" or "just stop drinking" and all that BS!
If you have woken up one morning and stopped drinking on willpower alone then all power to you but that "road to recovery" won't help most people...that's what is being implied here...
And this is a paradigm shift in thinking... that is why and how it works.
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