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View Poll Results: Now that you have quit, do you still consider yourself an alcoholic/addict?
YES - I still consider myself an alcoholic/addict.
121
82.88%
NO - I do not consider myself an alcoholic/addict.
25
17.12%
Voters: 146. You may not vote on this poll

RE: Addict Identity

Old 07-05-2011, 11:23 PM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Where did the poll go?
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
"Heavy Drinker" would be an understatement in my case. I thought I was a "heavy drinker" alright, until I actually tried to quit, and the withdrawal kicked in. I then realized that I was physically, and not just psychologically dependent on it.
There are three different types of drinkers described in the chapter, "There Is A Solution:" (1) the moderate drinker, (2) the hard drinker and (3) the real alcoholic.

Hard drinkers:

"Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason—ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor—becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention."
Note, "may even need medical attention." Indeed, the hard drinker may be the friend parked on the neighboring bar stool, drinking as much -- or even more -- than the real alcoholic. The key difference is that given sufficiently strong reason, although he may find it difficult and troublesome, he can stop or moderate his drinking.
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SteppingItUp View Post
For an alcoholic of my variety, moral and philosophical convictions galore have proven themselves to be insufficient; hence the existence of alcoholic/addict philosophers, psychiatrists and psychologists, priests, ministers and rabbis.

A passage from the most successful book on alcoholism in the world (the Big Book) springs to mind:

"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn’t there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly."
Don't get me wrong, I can certainly understand this. It is a !@#$ to give up. I had quite a few failed start/stop cycles before I finally really quit, all but a couple lasting even a week. I came by this realization slowly, at first using "simple" AVRT to get enough dry days to get my head cleared, and then I did a FMI on drinking, so to speak. That is when it finally stuck. I can't say it will work for everyone, as it really does have to come from within.

To those who doubt its effectiveness, all I can say is, you would probably have to experience this fundamental change in perspective to understand it. I suspect those who say they've had a spiritual awakening must feel the same way when people doubt them.

I still get thoughts of drinking every so often, to be sure, but they pale in comparison to those first 90 days, where the cravings felt like they were coming from my bones. I now have a mental defense which has become almost like a reflex, much like dropping a hot potato. The downside to it is that I now hear the "Addictive Voice" in many of the posts I read. :-)
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Old 07-06-2011, 05:52 AM
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I am not a hard drinker -- I am something else, which is a real alcoholic. If you are a hard drinker and you have found an approach that works for you, I am happy to hear it, and I wish you well.

However, if you are a hard drinker rather than a real alcoholic, I might ask you to consider that it could be harmful to tell real alcoholics, many of whom are just beginning to seek help, that they are just like you, that they will be fine if they just do what a hard drinker does to stop, and that alcoholism, as I know alcoholism to be, can be overcome by "thinking my way out of it according to my own will power," or other suggestions similar to those found in your signature.

If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick. Alcoholism is a frequently fatal illness; I pray that you take this into consideration in the new line of morality that you suggest is managing to keep you sober. Just as I won't tell a stomach cancer patient that he doesn't need treatment because my own stomach problems cleared up the good old fashioned way at home, I propose that the fact that you may be a hard drinker does not mean that alcoholism doesn't exist, or that treatment for non-alcoholics will ever be sufficient for real alcoholics when the graveyards are full of people who prove that theory to be tragically flawed.

If you are a hard drinker, I'm sure your experience can be very helpful to other hard drinkers -- I would support you in that all the way. On a similar note, if you are so sure you are not a real alcoholic, perhaps it would be best to allow real alcoholics in recovery to show real alcoholics what has worked, and continues to work, for them. There is a solution, it works, and it's a life saver for others as sick as I have been.

Best wishes to you in all ways.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:03 AM
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Is it true, that if you are a full blow alcoholic, as it is defined in the "big book," that the only solution is a 12 step one? And if you do not use a 12 step method, and succeed, you are not an alcoholic? Does AA help heavy drinkers? Can I tiptoe the line ....

And where is the poll?
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:05 AM
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Sorry ... Found it. Sneaky devil.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Crow3000 View Post
And where is the poll?
The poll is all the way at the top of the thread, prior to any posts. 61 votes in so far.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:38 AM
  # 68 (permalink)  
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SteppingItUp,

I have to say, you are unusually polite and tempered in your response - not the usual "you are killing alcoholics and I hope you get cancer" I might normally get.

Originally Posted by SteppingItUp View Post
I am not a hard drinker -- I am something else, which is a real alcoholic. If you are a hard drinker and you have found an approach that works for you, I am happy to hear it, and I wish you well.
I don't know, I might have been a hard drinker for a few years in the beginning, when I just drank every day, but not all day. I just can't fathom a hard drinker doing what I did for almost two years by the end. Drink whiskey all day every day, often without food, until passing out, wake up, throw up from the drinking, then drink again anyway right after, straining to keep it down, because the misery was too much. Repeat ad nauseum, or until the booze runs out.

Originally Posted by SteppingItUp View Post
However, if you are a hard drinker rather than a real alcoholic, I might ask you to consider that it could be harmful to tell real alcoholics, many of whom are just beginning to seek help, that they are just like you, that they will be fine if they just do what a hard drinker does to stop, and that alcoholism, as I know alcoholism to be, can be overcome by "thinking my way out of it according to my own will power," or other suggestions similar to those found in your signature.

If I had listened to that kind of information, through my own wishful thinking or the ongoing alcoholic delusion with which I came into recovery, I believe it could have helped to keep me very sick.
I am mindful that the suggestion in my signature is in contradiction to the usual, but that is intentional. Listening to information about how I was diseased, powerless, and could have no effective mental defense helped keep me very sick indeed. It was only when I finally stopped listening that I got better.

Originally Posted by SteppingItUp View Post
Alcoholism is a frequently fatal illness; I pray that you take this into consideration in the new line of morality that you suggest is managing to keep you sober. Just as I won't tell a stomach cancer patient that he doesn't need treatment because my own stomach problems cleared up the good old fashioned way at home, I propose that the fact that you may be a hard drinker does not mean that alcoholism doesn't exist, or that treatment for non-alcoholics will ever be sufficient for real alcoholics when the graveyards are full of people who prove that theory to be tragically flawed.
I won't say that I haven't seen alcoholics die, because I have, and more so once I started attending AA.

Originally Posted by SteppingItUp View Post
If you are a hard drinker, I'm sure your experience can be very helpful to other hard drinkers -- I would support you in that all the way. On a similar note, if you are so sure you are not a real alcoholic, perhaps it would be best to allow real alcoholics in recovery to show real alcoholics what has worked, and continues to work, for them. There is a solution, it works, and it's a life saver for others as sick as I have been.

Best wishes to you in all ways.
I have seen people get better in AA, just as I have seen people get worse while in AA. If AA can keep you sober, I don't begrudge your solution, nor would I tell you to stop using it. My interest is in those people who cannot be helped by AA, particularly the ones who have already tried its solution and were unsuccessful.
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Old 07-06-2011, 06:53 AM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
I made no mention of diabetes
Of course you didn't. I was making an analogy. Diabetes is like alcoholism in that it is an incurable disease, yet no-one disputes that diabetes is a disease.

Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
but medicine does treat diabetes as a medical condition, and the treatment for it reflects that.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Yes, diabetes can be treated with pharmaceuticals, but it usually doesn't remit under treatment like bacterial infections do under antibiotics.

Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
The only thing that might approach anything resembling medical treatment for alcoholism is the Sinclair Method.
Acamprosate (Campral) therapy is also effective, as well as Campral-disulfiram (Anabuse) therapy.

Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
As for a cure, there most certainly is a cure for alcoholism: abstinence.
Abstinence is not a cure. A cure returns the body to a non-pathological state. The brain is permanently adapted by the use of the chemical of dependence and does not return to its non-pathological state even with continued abstinence.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:10 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
Of course you didn't. I was making an analogy. Diabetes is like alcoholism in that it is an incurable disease, yet no-one disputes that diabetes is a disease.
Frankly, I don't particularly care if it alcoholism is a disease or not, although I do take issue with the way some people use it for self-serving purposes. Whether it is a disease or not, at present, the solution is still the same: quitting drinking.

Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Yes, diabetes can be treated with pharmaceuticals, but it usually doesn't remit under treatment like bacterial infections do under antibiotics.
I'm not sure what your idea of "treatment" is, but I do know that most people who advocate the disease concept of alcoholism have no intention whatsoever of proposing an actual medical solution to alcoholism. As for remission, it certainly does remit. Just as the brain and the body adapt to the continued presence of alcohol in the body, they will necessarily adapt to its continued absence. Simple biology.

Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
Acamprosate (Campral) therapy is also effective, as well as Campral-disulfiram (Anabuse) therapy.
You are correct, I did forget to mention acamprosate. As for disulfiram, that doesn't treat anything. It is akin to having an ankle bracelet that electrocutes you every time you drink, or someone putting a gun to your head and saying "drink and die."

Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
Abstinence is not a cure. A cure returns the body to a non-pathological state. The brain is permanently adapted by the use of the chemical of dependence and does not return to its non-pathological state even with continued abstinence.
The brain does return to its non-pathological state with continued abstinence. The brain will adapt in order to maintain homeoestasis, just as it always does. If it did not adapt in response to a change in homeoestasis, whether by addition or sudden removal of a foreign chemical, no one would ever become chemically dependent, nor would anyone ever experience withdrawal.

Last edited by cece1960; 07-06-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:40 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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AVRT-

Do you actually have any evidence that the brain returns to a non-pathological state during abstinence?

Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:

Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse

Originally Posted by Breese et al (2010)
Alcoholism is a chronic relapsing disorder. Major characteristics observed in alcoholics during an initial period of alcohol abstinence are altered physiological functions and a negative emotional state. Evidence suggests that a persistent, cumulative adaptation involving a kindling/allostasis-like process occurs during the course of repeated chronic alcohol exposures that is critical for the negative symptoms observed during alcohol withdrawal. Basic studies have provided evidence for specific neurotransmitters within identified brain sites being responsible for the negative emotion induced by the persistent cumulative adaptation following intermittent-alcohol exposures. After an extended period of abstinence, the cumulative alcohol adaptation increases susceptibility to stress- and alcohol cue-induced negative symptoms and alcohol seeking, both of which can facilitate excessive ingestion of alcohol. In the alcoholic, stressful imagery and alcohol cues alter physiological responses, enhance negative emotion, and induce craving. Brain fMRI imaging following stress and alcohol cues has documented neural changes in specific brain regions of alcoholics not observed in social drinkers. Such altered activity in brain of abstinent alcoholics to stress and alcohol cues is consistent with a continuing ethanol adaptation being responsible. Therapies in alcoholics found to block responses to stress and alcohol cues would presumably be potential treatments by which susceptibility for continued alcohol abuse can be reduced. By continuing to define the neurobiological basis of the sustained alcohol adaptation critical for the increased susceptibility of alcoholics to stress and alcohol cues that facilitate craving, a new era is expected to evolve in which the high rate of relapse in alcoholism is minimized.
(Emphasis added)
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:59 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
Do you actually have any evidence that the brain returns to a non-pathological state during abstinence?

Again, the evidence from medical research in humans is to the contrary:

Chronic alcohol neuroadaptation and stress contribute to susceptibility for alcohol craving and relapse
Nothing in that article says the brain will never return to a non-pathological state. It only describes a susceptibility to stress "during an initial period of alcohol abstinence."

Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.

If you want pretty brain PET and fMRI scans, though, there is this article from TIME, although you'll have to read almost to the end where they scan the guy to see if he is "triggered" by a beer, and he isn't. Of course, even if he was "triggered," meaning he really, really, really, wanted it and his brain lit up like a Christmas tree, still does not mean that he has to actually drink said beer.

How We get Addicted
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
Nothing in that article says the brain will never return to a non-pathological state. It only describes a susceptibility to stress "during an initial period of alcohol abstinence."

Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.
This article is freely available online. Perhaps you should check to see how they define "chronic".
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:05 AM
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I consider myself a recovering alcoholic.
The alcohol was but a symptom of my problem(s).
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:26 PM
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
Nothing in that article says the brain will never return to a non-pathological state. It only describes a susceptibility to stress "during an initial period of alcohol abstinence."

Well, what do you know? People are stressed during the first 90 days after quitting. PhD thesis material right there.

If you want pretty brain PET and fMRI scans, though, there is this article from TIME, although you'll have to read almost to the end where they scan the guy to see if he is "triggered" by a beer, and he isn't. Of course, even if he was "triggered," meaning he really, really, really, wanted it and his brain lit up like a Christmas tree, still does not mean that he has to actually drink said beer.

How We get Addicted
It's hilarious (and a bit frightening) how quickly you dismiss cutting-edge medical research for anecdotes and personal experience. Yes, your experience may be that you were able to quit by making a firm promise to yourself to never drink again, but that does not mean that substance dependence does not permanently alter neurochemistry and neuroanatomy in such a way that increases the probability of relapse.

That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
It's hilarious (and a bit frightening) how quickly you dismiss cutting-edge medical research for anecdotes and personal experience. Yes, your experience may be that you were able to quit by making a firm promise to yourself to never drink again, but that does not mean that substance dependence does not permanently alter neurochemistry and neuroanatomy in such a way that increases the probability of relapse.

That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
Is AVRT actually dismissing the addict label because of the stigma? I thought it was more of a poll going on...

And labels are just means of categorizing in an effort to have efficient communication between groups of people... whatever someone has to tell themself to get sober really is what's important, I think. Labels or no labels... I didn't go into grad school because I became disillusioned by labels (and I thought I was going to be a rock star, but I quickly learned otherwise)... what a silly reason not to further my education.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
It's hilarious (and a bit frightening) how quickly you dismiss cutting-edge medical research for anecdotes and personal experience. Yes, your experience may be that you were able to quit by making a firm promise to yourself to never drink again, but that does not mean that substance dependence does not permanently alter neurochemistry and neuroanatomy in such a way that increases the probability of relapse.

That said, that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse not does it mean that you aren't responsible for maintaining your own sobriety, but it does mean that dismissing the "addict identity" because it creates a stigma and allegedly promotes relapse is overly simplistic and possibly damaging to long-term sobriety.
There is that stigma bit, but that's not why I dislike the label. Mostly, it is because people project certain characteristics onto "alcoholics," much as you are doing. Backpedaling now and saying "that doesn't mean that you in particular will relapse," does not negate your prior "Evidence?" remark when I said there would be no relapses.

You were, in effect, trying to knock my knees out from under me by trying to convince me that I can't possibly abstain for the rest of my life because my brain is permanently altered. You can keep at it, but I can guarantee you that it won't work. I do have to wonder why you would be inclined to do such a thing, though. Perhaps you want me to drink again?

Just how does telling people that they will relapse, or that they will have a higher probability of relapse, help their long-term sobriety? You don't think that it just might be setting them up for failure? Telling people "you will relapse" does not help them.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
Just how does telling people that they will relapse, or that they will have a higher probability of relapse, help their long-term sobriety? You don't think that it just might be setting them up for failure? Telling people "you will relapse" does not help them.
You obviously have a very different experience to most of us!

Most of us promised ourselves to stop drinking many, many times and failed to keep that promise...but we kept waking up and saying this time it will be different, i will succeed whilst making no changes whatsoever to our "plan of change"...it's called insanity...some of us only recognised we had done this once we got help and got sober, so the last thing that we would need to here is "this time you can do it" or "just stop drinking" and all that BS!

If you have woken up one morning and stopped drinking on willpower alone then all power to you but that "road to recovery" won't help most people...that's what is being implied here...
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
You obviously have a very different experience to most of us!

Most of us promised ourselves to stop drinking many, many times and failed to keep that promise...but we kept waking up and saying this time it will be different, i will succeed whilst making no changes whatsoever to our "plan of change"...it's called insanity...some of us only recognised we had done this once we got help and got sober, so the last thing that we would need to here is "this time you can do it" or "just stop drinking" and all that BS!

If you have woken up one morning and stopped drinking on willpower alone then all power to you but that "road to recovery" won't help most people...that's what is being implied here...
Posts like these just drone on and on... and make no sense. Why do people continue to ignore the #'s? It is documented that (and it cuts across recovery methods) the majority of those successful at getting sober once and for all do it with a long-term commitment to abstinence.

And this is a paradigm shift in thinking... that is why and how it works.
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