Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce
(Post 3024368)
I'm sorry. I edited my post with a less flippant and rhetorical question. But again, alcoholism is not a moral failing; it is a physical disease. Your assertion that quitting is merely an issue of establishing a moral imperative has very little empirical support. Matt Talbot |
Look, it is truly not that hard to find information on the disease model of alcoholism, if you take the time to look. For instance, in a previous post, I mentioned the "neurobiology of addiction". A Google search yields ~148000 results, and a Google Scholar search yields 3150 results searching anywhere in the article and 90 result searching just in the title. |
You guys can't ignore the numbers though, the majority of alcoholics quit on their own with no program, so what's the X factor that causes someone to finally throw in the towel? |
I'm confused: When did the discussion become about quitting on one's own vs quitting with someone else's help? |
Actually re my previous post i think you will find that the majority of alcoholics do not quit and end up dying of complications associated with alcoholism...3 that i personally knew died last month ages 23, 40 and 47... Very, very optimistic to think the majority of alcoholics are getting sober out there only because they get sober by themselves and therefore no-one would know... |
Originally Posted by yeahgr8
(Post 3024390)
Actually re my previous post i think you will find that the majority of alcoholics do not quit and end up dying of complications associated with alcoholism...3 that i personally knew died last month ages 23, 40 and 47... Very, very optimistic to think the majority of alcoholics are getting sober out there only because they get sober by themselves and therefore no-one would know... |
Originally Posted by SoberJennie
(Post 3024395)
From what I've read (and I read a lot), the majority of those who get and stay sober do it using a combination of programs & methods... which is exactly why I chose this way for myself. So, in a sense... they are those who pick and choose (much to the chagrin of some [not all] AA'ers who like their blinders) and make a combo of things that actually work for them. |
I basically took what I wanted and left the rest from a ton of different places. I was listening to one of the XA speaker talks out in the yard this afternoon and Sandy Beach said that AA was 10% stop drinking and 90% self improvement, ie. a more sane way to live. |
SoberJennie, you don't have to buy the whole cow to get a T-Bone steak, so why can't you take what you want and leave the rest. Bruce Lee was probably before your time but that was his motto, he took what he liked from all the martial arts and came up with what worked for him. |
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce
(Post 3024382)
Look, it is truly not that hard to find information on the disease model of alcoholism, if you take the time to look. For instance, in a previous post, I mentioned the "neurobiology of addiction". A Google search yields ~148000 results, and a Google Scholar search yields 3150 results searching anywhere in the article and 90 result searching just in the title. In fact, it might even dissuade you from trying. I actually have a book that contains many research articles on this topic. It makes the "Big Book" look like a greeting card, but there is nothing in there on how to quit. |
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
(Post 3024439)
SoberJennie, you don't have to buy the whole cow to get a T-Bone steak, so why can't you take what you want and leave the rest. Bruce Lee was probably before your time but that was his motto, he took what he liked from all the martial arts and came up with what worked for him. Dude, you're talking to a creative person here... that's exactly what I do. I can not stand packaged and complete programs... it's not healthy to pick one and always stay there... I don't put all my eggs in one basket. I've done just what you suggest... I've been a part of several programs and I've taken what I like from each.... even AA! :) ...I am working on my patience to try to control my kneejerk reactions to what I perceive as narrow-mindedness. I'm known among my friends as a free thinker/free spirit. I'm agnostic and a libertarian (not to bring religion and politics into this, god forbid...) I have to really watch my temper when I read certain things. But yes... I like the customized approach. It truly does work the best for me ;) |
Originally Posted by AVRT
(Post 3024379)
I don't believe that alcoholism is a moral failing, or that it does not have a physiological component to it. A moral imperative, particularly if self-adopted, can certainly be highly effective against it, though, and has been throughout the ages. People have been quitting this way since long before any treatment or support groups existed. Matt Talbot A passage from the most successful book on alcoholism in the world (the Big Book) springs to mind: "If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn’t there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly." Then again, you may not be an alcoholic of my type. Before deciding if you are an alcoholic or not, I'm curious to know what you're using to define what an alcoholic is and what you've used to base your ideas on. In all cases, in every way, I wish you the very best on your journey. |
Originally Posted by yeahgr8
(Post 3024377)
We do have to remember in this discussion that there is a BIIIIIIIIG difference between the alcoholic and the heavy drinker...i know a few guys who drank more than me at the bar all the time i was around in the last 5 years of my drinking (navy divers were the worst;-)) who quit almost overnight and haven't picked up again...i can't tell anyone if they are an alcoholic or not that's for them to decide but, for sure, if they are then no way will they be able to just abstain and live anything more than a miserable existence dry...like all the times i stopped drinking for months at a time eventually i would think well my life pretty much sucks without booze might as well suck with it! |
Originally Posted by SteppingItUp
(Post 3024451)
Before deciding if you are an alcoholic or not, I'm curious to know what you're using to define what an alcoholic is and what you've used to base your ideas on. In all cases, in every way, I wish you the very best on your journey. I have read the Big Book, BTW, several times, and I still have a have a copy of the pocket Big Book. I gave away the BIG Big Book. :-) DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Alcohol Dependence Alcohol Dependence - Diagnostic Code 303.90 A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three (or more) of the following, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period: (1) tolerance, as defined by either of the following: (a) a need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve Intoxication or desired effect (2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:(b) markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol (a) the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to Criteria A and B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from alcohol) (3) alcohol is often used in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended(b) alcohol (or a closely related drug such as valium) is used to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms (4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use (5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects (6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use (7) alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol (e.g. continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption) Specifiers: With Physiological Dependence: evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., either Item 1 or 2 is present) Without Physiological Dependence: no evidence of tolerance or withdrawal (i.e., neither Item 1 nor 2 is present) DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Alcohol Withdrawal Alcohol Withdrawal - Diagnostic Code 291.81 A. Cessation of (or reduction in) alcohol use that has been heavy and prolonged. B. Two (or more) of the following, developing within several hours to a few days after Criterion A: (1) autonomic hyperactivity (e.g., sweating or pulse rate greater than 100) C. The symptoms in Criterion B cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.(2) increased hand tremor (3) insomnia (4) nausea or vomiting (5) transient visual, tactile, or auditory hallucinations or illusions (6) psychomotor agitation (7) anxiety (8) grand mal seizures D. The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder. Specify if: With Perceptual Disturbances American Psychiatric Association. 1994. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.) (DSM-IV) |
Originally Posted by Darklight
(Post 3024631)
I've been a sex addict since a very young age. I currently have 26 months of sobriety from inner circle behavior (which is anything that acting on would be considered a break of sobriety). However, I am pretty sure that this one is something I'm stuck with for life. Regarding it, I identify as a grateful recovering sex addict. I don't get your "inner circle" reference, for example. |
Originally Posted by AVRT
(Post 3024443)
There neurobiology of addiction may explain how this develops, and how the body recovers from it, but as of yet, with the exception of detox, treatment does not resemble a medical solution in the least. You can read about the neurobiology of addiction until you go blind from eye strain, but until medicine actually beings to treat it as a medical condition, that won't help you much. Are you seriously arguing that diabetes isn't a disease? |
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce
(Post 3024675)
Originally Posted by AVRT There neurobiology of addiction may explain how this develops, and how the body recovers from it, but as of yet, with the exception of detox, treatment does not resemble a medical solution in the least. You can read about the neurobiology of addiction until you go blind from eye strain, but until medicine actually beings to treat it as a medical condition, that won't help you much. Are you seriously arguing that diabetes isn't a disease? |
I'm an addict in recovery. DH and I joke that recovered is for a couch. LOL I don't label others for any reason, that is not my place. |
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce
(Post 3024675)
There is no cure for diabetes. Are you seriously arguing that diabetes isn't a disease? |
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