Choosing Sobriety
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Albany NY
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Actually, I'm all for whatever gets you past the denial that you have a problem.
I also find that whatever model one accepts, it is usually the one that is most palatable to THEMSELVES.
So whether one considers it a physical disease, or a spiritual disorder, or a mental defect, it really doesn't matter. The attachment to the definition is one of JUDGEMENT.
When I look back to my active disease, was I suffering a MORAL DEFECT, was I a MENTAL DEFECT that needed a psychiatric ward, was I a PHYSICAL ADDICT requiring medical intervention, or was I just being PUNISHED by God.
I looked at all aspects, and worked on all aspects, and that is how I recovered. I bowed to those who walked the path before me.
That, my friend, began with God's angels on earth (other suffering and recovering alcoholics). They were all I could see at the time.
I was much too busy drinking and cursing God for taking my alcoholic mother at 56, my alcoholic brother away at 36, and leaving behind a schizophrenic brother to care for to see God at the time.
God came when I was ready to see him through the kind ACTIONS of others. It took many years. I sought treatment based on the belief and knowing that my deceased parents would not want me to be living in the pain I was in. They were my higher power when I walked into the rooms.
I didn't think I could come to believe in a God that could be so cruel. I grew up in the Catholic Church, and received all the sacraments. I lost faith; never to be returned again. But they did. I don't consider myself Catholic today, but I redefined my beliefs.
Until then, you couldn't shove God down my throat with words, and there was no God out of the Machine (deus ex machina) that could save me.
I also find that whatever model one accepts, it is usually the one that is most palatable to THEMSELVES.
So whether one considers it a physical disease, or a spiritual disorder, or a mental defect, it really doesn't matter. The attachment to the definition is one of JUDGEMENT.
When I look back to my active disease, was I suffering a MORAL DEFECT, was I a MENTAL DEFECT that needed a psychiatric ward, was I a PHYSICAL ADDICT requiring medical intervention, or was I just being PUNISHED by God.
I looked at all aspects, and worked on all aspects, and that is how I recovered. I bowed to those who walked the path before me.
That, my friend, began with God's angels on earth (other suffering and recovering alcoholics). They were all I could see at the time.
I was much too busy drinking and cursing God for taking my alcoholic mother at 56, my alcoholic brother away at 36, and leaving behind a schizophrenic brother to care for to see God at the time.
God came when I was ready to see him through the kind ACTIONS of others. It took many years. I sought treatment based on the belief and knowing that my deceased parents would not want me to be living in the pain I was in. They were my higher power when I walked into the rooms.
I didn't think I could come to believe in a God that could be so cruel. I grew up in the Catholic Church, and received all the sacraments. I lost faith; never to be returned again. But they did. I don't consider myself Catholic today, but I redefined my beliefs.
Until then, you couldn't shove God down my throat with words, and there was no God out of the Machine (deus ex machina) that could save me.
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18
Did Jesus Send Disease?
Hi CarolD. You said:
[QUOTE]Following that line of thinking...did God not send illness/diseases to some humans?[QUOTE]
Good question. Let me answer according to my Christian training and beliefs. That answer is no. Disease is directly related to the fall of mankind in which sin (and death) entered into the human race.
Does he allow some people to go through sickness and illness? Absolutely. He also allows us to go through the consequences or our sins. I am forgiven in Christ. This is true. I am also responsible for my actions. And unfortunately my actions carry consequences.
Despite my weaknesses and foolishness, he is there. "Where sin abounds, grace abounds that much more" according to the apostle Paul. And I know his grace is sufficient for me and that his strength is manifest in my weakness. For this I rejoice.
I am happy that you are recovering well. Thanks for the question and comments.
FIH
[QUOTE]Following that line of thinking...did God not send illness/diseases to some humans?[QUOTE]
Good question. Let me answer according to my Christian training and beliefs. That answer is no. Disease is directly related to the fall of mankind in which sin (and death) entered into the human race.
Does he allow some people to go through sickness and illness? Absolutely. He also allows us to go through the consequences or our sins. I am forgiven in Christ. This is true. I am also responsible for my actions. And unfortunately my actions carry consequences.
Despite my weaknesses and foolishness, he is there. "Where sin abounds, grace abounds that much more" according to the apostle Paul. And I know his grace is sufficient for me and that his strength is manifest in my weakness. For this I rejoice.
I am happy that you are recovering well. Thanks for the question and comments.
FIH
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Originally Posted by freeinhim 
Thank you again for welcoming me aboard. I hope my response was not overly harsh. If that is how you interpreted it, then I apologize. But it is good to see why people view addiction as a diseaese and not a choice. And this only reinforces the view that addiction is choice rather than an illness or disease. It's a behavior, a disease like cancer is not. A behavior requires our conscious participation, a disease does not.
Accepting the truth that it is a choice means that you can choose another path. You can choose not to use -- which is exactly what I have done. I have exercised my freedom of choice and chose another path. My addiction was the direct result of my actions. Now, sobriety is!
Blessings,
FIH
Accepting the truth that it is a choice means that you can choose another path. You can choose not to use -- which is exactly what I have done. I have exercised my freedom of choice and chose another path. My addiction was the direct result of my actions. Now, sobriety is!
Blessings,
FIH
If this doesn't coincide with your view, that's fine with me. I'm not here to try to persuade anyone's thinking. If your thinking process keeps you sober, so be it. Obtaining and maintaining sobriety is what is important on this board, not this debate that has begun on this thread. I hope that's what is important to you.
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Thanks
Thank you wellwisher. I have a question for you:
I respect your view but have a follow-up. If you were in the hospital suffering with an undiagnosed illness, and three Dr.'s came in to your room and gave you three different diagnosis for your illness, would that concern you? Wouldn't three different diagnosis lead to three different cures?
This is what is strange about addiction. People can believe that it is caused by different things and pursue different treatments. Some simply quit altogether. Cancer is not subject to our own individual diagnosis. It is what it is. It is exists whether we believe it does or does not. A person suffering with cancer cannot simply "believe" he does not have a disease.
Yet, with addiction, it seems to be different. Why? Very curious. Some people believe it is a disease and treat it like one. Some of those recover. Others believe it is a choice and choose to quit. Still others believe it is a spiritual disorder and seek spiritual guidance. And many of those recover.
Diseases don't seem to respond that way. Addiction does. When people find their "reason" for quitting and pursue recovery, it often works. This is one of the reasons (along with evidence and the Bible) that I believe it is a choice. Whatever brings us to the point of choosing to quit is the most important step.
Well, at least the way I see it.....
Blessings,
FIH
So whether one considers it a physical disease, or a spiritual disorder, or a mental defect, it really doesn't matter.
This is what is strange about addiction. People can believe that it is caused by different things and pursue different treatments. Some simply quit altogether. Cancer is not subject to our own individual diagnosis. It is what it is. It is exists whether we believe it does or does not. A person suffering with cancer cannot simply "believe" he does not have a disease.
Yet, with addiction, it seems to be different. Why? Very curious. Some people believe it is a disease and treat it like one. Some of those recover. Others believe it is a choice and choose to quit. Still others believe it is a spiritual disorder and seek spiritual guidance. And many of those recover.
Diseases don't seem to respond that way. Addiction does. When people find their "reason" for quitting and pursue recovery, it often works. This is one of the reasons (along with evidence and the Bible) that I believe it is a choice. Whatever brings us to the point of choosing to quit is the most important step.
Well, at least the way I see it.....
Blessings,
FIH
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by TheEnd
The disease is primary – that is, it is not just a symptom of some other underlying disorder.
That's an important concept which I think you missed freeinhim.
Welcome to SR!
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Ama
Hi,
That is true. Before then it wasn't considered a disease. Does that mean the medical community was wrong then or now? And now new research suggests that the view that addiction is a disease is not supported by the evidence. Schaler, Heyman and others have done great work in this area.
I'm not here to convince you either. I shared my story of how rejecting the myth that it was a disease was the truth I needed to quit. The "once an addict; always an addict" caused me irreperable harm. I had no impetus to quit because I was told that I would always be an addict.
What you believe influences how you behave. I believed I was an addict and behaved like one. This is common sense and logical. I'm glad I heard the alternative that my addiction was my choice. This gave me great hope because I knew that if I had a choice to drink, I also had a choice not to drink. Liberation.....and freedom.
Thank you again for your understanding of thoughtful remarks.
FIH
The disease model of alcohol and drug addiction was adopted by the American Medical Association 40 years ago. Decades of research has confirmed that addiction
I'm not here to convince you either. I shared my story of how rejecting the myth that it was a disease was the truth I needed to quit. The "once an addict; always an addict" caused me irreperable harm. I had no impetus to quit because I was told that I would always be an addict.
What you believe influences how you behave. I believed I was an addict and behaved like one. This is common sense and logical. I'm glad I heard the alternative that my addiction was my choice. This gave me great hope because I knew that if I had a choice to drink, I also had a choice not to drink. Liberation.....and freedom.
Thank you again for your understanding of thoughtful remarks.
FIH
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That's an important concept which I think you missed freeinhim
Thanks!
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 140
Originally Posted by Zencat
If alcoholism is a disease or not dosen't matter much to me nowadays. Alcoholism is serious, it can disrupt the lives of those around the alcoholic as it effects the alcoholic likewise. Yet like similar diseases such as heart disease, diabetes and asthma one main factor in successful treatment involves radical lifestyles changes.
Even with conflicting opinions, we all still share a key element when we work on changing ourselves in to who we truly want to be: discipline.
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Posts: 645
FIM: Telling people that they cannot choose "not" to drink is a deadly dellusion. It creates hopelessness and despair. It is has dire consequences.
No one needed to tell me that I could not choose to not drink. That fact about myself became crystal clear. And you are correct, it resulted in a feeling of absolute hopelessness and despair. My description would have been "fear, pain and desperation". That was the point at which I fully conceded to my innermost self that I was alcoholic, accepted to the depth of my being that I was powerless over alcohol and surrendered. That was when I took the first step in AA's twelve step program.
You are also correct that the consequences are dire. The choice was go on to the bitter end (i.e., continue to fight the urges/cravings and the mental obsession for alcohol which I couldn't win) or accept spiritual help. That was where I understood that the solution to my powerlessness was power. I needed to find a power greater than myself which would solve my problem for me. That was the second step of AA's twelve step program. Then came a decision (Step 3), inventory/housecleaning (Step 4 and 5) and so on.
It never occurred to me that I should go back out and finish the job (i.e., continue to drink). I wanted to live, and I was willing to do anything. The solution I found was the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous which as applied resulted in my having a spiritual awakening. The obsession has been removed. I don't want to drink anymore. If you have found a different solution, I am happy for you. AA has no monopoly on therapy for alcoholics. If by chance your solution stops working for you, AA will be there. It's the last house on the block of a dead end street.
Susan
No one needed to tell me that I could not choose to not drink. That fact about myself became crystal clear. And you are correct, it resulted in a feeling of absolute hopelessness and despair. My description would have been "fear, pain and desperation". That was the point at which I fully conceded to my innermost self that I was alcoholic, accepted to the depth of my being that I was powerless over alcohol and surrendered. That was when I took the first step in AA's twelve step program.
You are also correct that the consequences are dire. The choice was go on to the bitter end (i.e., continue to fight the urges/cravings and the mental obsession for alcohol which I couldn't win) or accept spiritual help. That was where I understood that the solution to my powerlessness was power. I needed to find a power greater than myself which would solve my problem for me. That was the second step of AA's twelve step program. Then came a decision (Step 3), inventory/housecleaning (Step 4 and 5) and so on.
It never occurred to me that I should go back out and finish the job (i.e., continue to drink). I wanted to live, and I was willing to do anything. The solution I found was the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous which as applied resulted in my having a spiritual awakening. The obsession has been removed. I don't want to drink anymore. If you have found a different solution, I am happy for you. AA has no monopoly on therapy for alcoholics. If by chance your solution stops working for you, AA will be there. It's the last house on the block of a dead end street.
Susan
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Albany NY
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Actually, I don't have to imagine having doctors surrounding me as I sit around waiting to find out about a diagnosis. It happened to me.
Seventeen years ago, I was diagnosed as suffering from alcoholism in the ER. From there, I went to a detox, staffed by nurses and went through medical withdrawal. A very nice man, one of God's angels on earth, a fellow recovering alcoholic doing his service, came to see me every day and led those in the detox in a nightly AA meeting within the facility. I spent five days there.
From there, I went into an alcohol treatment center for ninety days, and learned of the disease, got 30 days of education while my mind was clearing out, and then the next sixty days were spent learning new coping skills, identifying triggers, making contacts, individual therapy, and group therapy. I transitioned from doing nightly AA meetings in the treatment center to going to outside AA meetings. The therapists, many of whom were also recovering alcoholics and addicts, were also God's angels on earth.
I have been sober since, and never suffered a single relapse. I think you are making mountains out of molehills when you keep trying to differentiate between the disease model and a moral model. At no time, and in no way, did ANYONE indicate to me that "the devil made me do it", or that I was not personally responsible for my behavior at any point in my life. As a matter of fact, I spent years afterward taking responsibility for my actions, I survived it, I learned from it, and am the happier for it.
So, yes, I can imagine being scared and lonely in an emergency room wondering if I was going crazy, going into a psychiatric ward, or going to hell. There were doctors, nurses and alcoholics there to help me. To be honest with you, if you were standing by my bed at the time, I probably would have jammed your bible in the old breadbox and sent you on your way.
My brother, at eighteen years of age, was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver due to ALCOHOLISM. He died at 36 of liver cancer. At the age of 27, he also entered a treatment center and became sober. I don't recall a bolt of lightning out the sky to get his ass there. He didn't believe alcoholism was a disease at 18, but he sure came to believe at 27.
Did he suffer a brutal death because of man's sins? No, I don't believe that, because that is the PUNISHING God I was taught to believe in as I grew up. My God is not that God.
And if I were sick in the hospital, and it was my final day, who do I pray to?
God? Jesus? Allah? Buddha? Zeus? It all, my friend, comes down to belief, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Anything outside of that is JUDGEMENT.
So, I stand by my previous statement.
Seventeen years ago, I was diagnosed as suffering from alcoholism in the ER. From there, I went to a detox, staffed by nurses and went through medical withdrawal. A very nice man, one of God's angels on earth, a fellow recovering alcoholic doing his service, came to see me every day and led those in the detox in a nightly AA meeting within the facility. I spent five days there.
From there, I went into an alcohol treatment center for ninety days, and learned of the disease, got 30 days of education while my mind was clearing out, and then the next sixty days were spent learning new coping skills, identifying triggers, making contacts, individual therapy, and group therapy. I transitioned from doing nightly AA meetings in the treatment center to going to outside AA meetings. The therapists, many of whom were also recovering alcoholics and addicts, were also God's angels on earth.
I have been sober since, and never suffered a single relapse. I think you are making mountains out of molehills when you keep trying to differentiate between the disease model and a moral model. At no time, and in no way, did ANYONE indicate to me that "the devil made me do it", or that I was not personally responsible for my behavior at any point in my life. As a matter of fact, I spent years afterward taking responsibility for my actions, I survived it, I learned from it, and am the happier for it.
So, yes, I can imagine being scared and lonely in an emergency room wondering if I was going crazy, going into a psychiatric ward, or going to hell. There were doctors, nurses and alcoholics there to help me. To be honest with you, if you were standing by my bed at the time, I probably would have jammed your bible in the old breadbox and sent you on your way.
My brother, at eighteen years of age, was diagnosed with cirrhosis of the liver due to ALCOHOLISM. He died at 36 of liver cancer. At the age of 27, he also entered a treatment center and became sober. I don't recall a bolt of lightning out the sky to get his ass there. He didn't believe alcoholism was a disease at 18, but he sure came to believe at 27.
Did he suffer a brutal death because of man's sins? No, I don't believe that, because that is the PUNISHING God I was taught to believe in as I grew up. My God is not that God.
And if I were sick in the hospital, and it was my final day, who do I pray to?
God? Jesus? Allah? Buddha? Zeus? It all, my friend, comes down to belief, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do it. Anything outside of that is JUDGEMENT.
So, I stand by my previous statement.
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Originally Posted by freeinhim
I'm not here to convince you either. I shared my story of how rejecting the myth that it was a disease was the truth I needed to quit. The "once an addict; always an addict" caused me irreperable harm. I had no impetus to quit because I was told that I would always be an addict.
FIH
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by freeinhim
Why is this concept an important point?
And how does this impact the notion that addiction is a choice?
Alcoholism is probably not exactly analogous... but I think you could say that heavy drinking was.... Self medicating and all... Although I am of the opinion that "secondary" heavy drinking (coping with stress, insomnia, loss...) can ultimately cause alcoholism (primary) in some...
Some people can "choose" to drink heavily and at some point, for whatever reason, can then "choose" not to...
For some though, not so much... the choice kind of goes away... "choosing" to drink becomes "destined" to drink... not drinking is no longer a choice, at least for the alcoholic...
Is it a choice if you don't see it as one?
Alcoholism and addiction defies sensibility and logic... It is what it is and I only have my own experience... that's really all each one of us has...
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Mark75
.
Some people can "choose" to drink heavily and at some point, for whatever reason, can then "choose" not to...
For some though, not so much... the choice kind of goes away... "choosing" to drink becomes "destined" to drink... not drinking is no longer a choice, at least for the alcoholic...
Is it a choice if you don't see it as one?
Alcoholism and addiction defies sensibility and logic... It is what it is and I only have my own experience... that's really all each one of us has...
Some people can "choose" to drink heavily and at some point, for whatever reason, can then "choose" not to...
For some though, not so much... the choice kind of goes away... "choosing" to drink becomes "destined" to drink... not drinking is no longer a choice, at least for the alcoholic...
Is it a choice if you don't see it as one?
Alcoholism and addiction defies sensibility and logic... It is what it is and I only have my own experience... that's really all each one of us has...
At that point I surrendered, I appealed to a Higher Power. I trusted that Higher Power and then I detached from the outcome.
An amazing thing then happened. I no longer needed to choose to drink or not drink. The obsession was completely removed root and branch. In fact, it is so far removed from my thinking that I now say:
"Not Drinkin has nothing to do with why I am sober today".
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
My own experience with this happened in my third step... First I gave up that choice in the third step... To God, I relinquished it.. Then I found I no longer needed to choose... So yea, boleo, I get it.
Until then, that choice, wasn't one I could choose. So, did I really have one?
Until then, that choice, wasn't one I could choose. So, did I really have one?
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 432
Well, actually there are lots of diseases, especially mental diseases, that respond to different types of therapy and progress differently in different people. Not all diseases are as clean-cut as polio or cancer.
I believe alcoholism is a disease, but that doesn't let me off the hook. I have a responsibility to manage the disease, the same way I have the responsibility to avoid driving if I'm diagnosed with Narcolepsy or to avoid stealing if I'm diagnosed with Kleptomania.
I believe alcoholism is a disease, but that doesn't let me off the hook. I have a responsibility to manage the disease, the same way I have the responsibility to avoid driving if I'm diagnosed with Narcolepsy or to avoid stealing if I'm diagnosed with Kleptomania.
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