wanttobehealthy

I have made it abundantly clear to my AH that actions, not words are what matter. So now he has found a way to "fake" actions to get me to believe him.

He's been claiming (on his own not bc I am asking) that he wants to go to this outpatient rehab program he's already been through once. He has told me he's been calling and leaving messages and hasn't heard back. When I asked him to show me that he called he told me he did so from work and had no record of it and then proceeded to bad mouth me to his brother and tell him that I am micromanaging his life.

How do I tell him that I won't believe him unless he demonstrates that he is doing what he is saying and not have this turn into blame and accusations on his part?

I guess the concept of actions vs words is too complex for him?

I am at my wits end. I go to al anon and hear talk about boundaries but what boundaries are appropriate for earning trust back? One thing I wish I could find in al anon that AA seems to offer more of is a "how to" approach... Every al anon meeting I've been to is everyone just talking about their situations...

I need some practical help with how to set a limit about what I will and won't believe that is reasonable. Is it reasonable to say that if he wants me to trust him he needs to show me "proof" of whatever he's claiming?

I am really lost.

bellakeller

Wow. That is a REALLY good question for your sponsor. Do you have one?

My mother is in Al-Anon and mentioned a tool for dealing with my sister. It's got something to do with refusing to participate in a familiar dance. You know the familiar steps; just don't take them. I guess just show through your actions (act as if) that you won't buy his crap, rather than tell him.

Kjell

By working through the 12 steps of AA I developed a conscience and lying quickly became unacceptable.

Kjell~

Fandy

he doesn't seem to be demonstrating anything other than pacifying you and doing whatever he thinks he can get away with...( i responded in your other thread on F&F). he does not seem to be truthful in any of his actions (or inactions).

where is the demonstration or ACTION of not drinking and wanting to stop for good? there is a vast difference to what he says and what he actually does.

do you believe him? what do you want?

wanttobehealthy

I don't have a sponsor. The al anon group I go to is considered a "newcomers" group and the 2 leaders say they do not sponsor. Everyone there is relatively new. There are only 2 meetings a week in my town and the 2nd is a really negative group that I hate going to. It's a lot of "this is how evil my A is and I am the victim" and I don't like it.

I really want a sponsor but am not sure what to do to find one given these scnenarios.

Fandy- what I want is to be able to believe what he says, and it is complicated bc he acts in ways that seem to be in line with what he says and then I learn that those acts are also lies...

My head is spinning

CarolD

all liars love an audience ...stop listening to his B.S.

I would have dumped him a long time ago.
Why stay in the drama?

skg

Question: Answer: Al-Anon and AA share the SAME Twelve Steps, for the same disease, in order for a reason and approved by millions... I suggest that you get a sponsor and work 'em--and maybe quit trying to make him do stuff YOU demand? It's a disease, and until he sees it, you're pounding your thumbs...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the (people, places, family members and) things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things (within me to trust You) I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference (is You).

I also think you'd be more successful in asking friends and family members. Choose to live in the solution today.

Edited to add: One more thing. As a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and having completed The Steps, I have come to realize that I can ONLY share MY experience. It's all I have. I didn't do anything people told me to do and I was also taught that I really don't have any business trying to control others but telling them what to do. I don't always get it right, but I'm asked to make suggestions, not demands.

SixStringZen

You sound like you're still trying to control it...unfortunately, it doesn't matter what you believe or don't believe...none of that has any bearing or whether he drinks or stops...
Please take care of yourself...

Fandy

i'm with Carol on this one...you do not seem to be getting any benefits out of interacting with him. why put in so much work? Let HIM start making some specific plans to help raise his children. If he does fine, and if he doesn't (which will probably be the case), fine too.

you do not have to dictate the calendar, don't expect him to anything. This way he can take credit if he does follow through on something he decided he wanted to participate in. He is not a child who needs to have everything planned for him.

and the last time i checked, you can set your cell phone to be an alarm clock or you can buy a cheap one for the price of a pack of cigarettes.

he sounds like a whiney 12 year old....maybe his mama can call him to wake him up when he has to be awake????

GodsHolyWill

Hi! I just wanted to let you know that there is a 'Friends & Family of Alcoholics' forum here that might be beneficial to you! I'm sure there's a lot of people with experiences similar to yours there! I wish you the very best!

Che

I think it's really difficult to tell someone in this kind of a relationship to just leave it. If I learned anything about abusive relationships (and to me this looks like mental abuse), it's that the victim is often confronted with having to admit they made a mistake in getting involved with the person... That is a huge crush to one's ego, to to resolve that, sometimes the person just never admits it.

I don't want to say that is the situation here. I want to say that your husband is sick and can get better. But you know what the truth is. You know that he won't get better if you keep giving in and letting him tell you you're being overbearing or micromanaging him. For goodness sake, the reality is that he should be begging for you to stay with him and doing everything in his power to show you he's changing. You are letting him have the power, and a sick person with power is a dangerous person.

I apologise if what I've said is offensive, or if I am being too personal in my analysis. Still, please ask yourself if you're afraid to leave him, afraid of what that means about you if you admit he's bad and you chose him, or if there really is value in continuing on with him. Try not to use abstractions like "I love him." Think of concrete reasons he is or will be a positive force in your life. If it's difficult to do that, think about what that means.

wanttobehealthy

Che, thank you very much for that response... It's a lot to think about. I have been using abstractions like "I love him" but when I stop and ask what it is specifically that he brings to my life, I am hard pressed to think of anything.

For those who feel I am trying to control the situation and am demanding things of him, I guess I am trying to walk a fine line between control and setting boundaries and letting him know that disease or not, I do not excuse or tolerate lying.

When someone pretends to walk the walk in addition to talking the talk it's hard to know what's real. I hear that actions, not words are what count but what happens when the actions start to be just as fake as the words...

I go on the Friends and Family board a lot but I guess I was hoping to get insight from people who have been through what my H is dealing with. But maybe my H's issues are a lot bigger than just alcoholism... Abuse is abuse and I think maybe I've been excusing a lot of it for a long time by blaming it all on alcoholism.

Thanks for giving me lots to think about I appreciate it.

wanttobehealthy

He actually is. Not that this is okay but for years he has not had to plan or do anything bc like a true co dependant spouse I've done everything since he refused to do anything. Rather than let him fall on his face (or let our credit be ruined bc he doesn't pay bills) I've taken on absolutely every responsibility. He now thinks it is normal that he do nothing and when he IS asked to do something he turns into a baby and whines that too much is asked of him (and then his mother calls and tells me to give him a break bc I dared to ask him to pick the girls up once a week or something).

Exactly. I pointed out the cell phone thing to him actually this morning.

Super idea!

skg

In case you hadn't noticed, you're the one complaining about your alcoholic spouse to a bunch of alcoholics. You will never understand the alcoholic/addict's brain. Hell, WE don't even understand it and that's why acceptance is so hard to obtain and maintain (in MY experience, anyway).
Look, give me an al-anon that will enable me, accept responsibility for my drinking, keep coming back when I push her away, cover for me because she 'loves' me (when, in fact, neither one understands love) and then I can focus on my addictions--I'll be in my element.
I learned by attending Al-Anon (yep, dually addicted at the very least) that I can't control the relationship--that's not love, that's parenting. Hate the disease, not the diseased; I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't change it; Real love don't keep score; and a jillion other things that I could only change from within me. If you make the decision to stay, and it's a valid question, go to Al-Anon. Get in the solution.

MrDavid

Thanks WantToBeHealthy for the topic.

I must not only establish boundaries, but also stand firm against any outside influences that try to intrude on those boundaries as well.

Some people have tried to impose their beliefs, their negativity or even tried to take advantage of my good nature, thus allowing them free access to do whatever they want at any given time -This cannot be allowed to happen.

I establish boundaries to protect not only my interests but to establish a buffer zone against any and all individuals who are attempting to profit at my expense -no matter how selfish that sounds.

This allows -the parties involved- the freedom to enjoy life without the degenerate influences that can and will disrupt our attempts at achieving our goals and realizing our dreams -one day at a time.

Setting boundaries is good and sticking with them is crucial, because maintaining our serenity by honoring those boundaries is important -bottom line.



~God Bless~

Fandy

he will need to grow up at some point, or you will be tethered to this giant child for life.

separate your finances now if you can and LET him fall on his face...soemtimes sink or swim can help....who cares if he whines.

I had no one to pick me up and coddle me, ( inever would have stopped drinking if i did) i decided that i needed to face reality or lose everything.

LexieCat

I think the problem is that you are putting the burden on him to prove he isn't lying.

Do you really want a relationship where your partner has to bring evidence to every conversation to prove what he is saying is true?

You trust him or you don't. It sounds like you don't. You can act on that lack of trust rather than trying to force him to be trustworthy.

It sounds like semantics, but it really isn't. "Prove that you're trustworthy" isn't a boundary. A boundary is, "I will not tolerate lying." Now, the question is, when you know he is lying, what are you going to do about it? How do you "not tolerate" it? It sounds as if "not tolerating" lying means a consequence of a lecture from you. Not very effective, is it?

I think you do need to find an Al-Anon sponsor who can help you clarify what your boundaries actually are and how you enforce those boundaries.

Actually, acceptance and detachment might work better for you on the lying issue than a definite boundary (since you apparently are not ready to break up with him over the lying just yet). You accept the fact that he lies. Alcoholics do that, on a pretty regular basis. Acceptance doesn't make it OK that he lies, it's just a recognition of the fact that he will lie to you about issues surrounding his alcoholism. Detachment means you give his statements the credit they deserve. Right now that would be close to zero. You don't act in reliance upon his statements. You neither agree nor disagree. You take them for what they are worth. When and if he starts getting honest with you, THEN he begins earning back your trust.

Zencat

Active alcoholics can be master manipulators. As you see they can do or say anything to keep using. On top of that they can turn the tables around so as to take the focus off of them and put it on everything else under the sun.

That's why I have used bottom lines with those in my life that have an active addiction. To use an example that would be relative to your case would be set a date that your AH be in rehab. FYI people can get into rehab in a matter of a couple days if not sooner. When you set that date you also state you bottom line. Like: If you are not in rehab by so and so date I can no longer _________. (fill in the blank).

I know its extremely painful to separate from someone that is loved wile there are in active addiction. But after the separation your healing can begin. However, there is no chance of healing as long as your being constantly manipulated by an active alcoholic.

least

For me, the lying stopped when the drinking stopped. Plain and simple. Until I was done living a lie I kept on lying. I'd think about letting him fall on his face and leaving yourself out of his drama and lies. You're not living, just existing from lie to lie.

gravity

A marriage/relationship must be built on trust. My drinking & lying got progressively worse over the first 17 years of my marriage. The last 2 years I was sober, working the AA program, and did everything I could for my now ex-wife. I was a good husband and father. Honest, loving, respectful, communicative, giving.

But it wasn't enough. The trust could not be re-established. My marriage ended when I found out my ex was having an affair.

I'm still a great father and, all in all considering, a pretty good ex-husband.

Sometimes it's in everybody's best interest to move on.

Do your best but just something to consider.