UniqueNewYork

Ok the short canned version

Have to go to aa meetings for legal reasons although been to numerous ones willingly. A couple of times have stumbled into an al-anon meeting. Don't understand their philosophy.

One meeting particular stands out. These two parents came to the meeting their first al-anon. They explained their son was a hardcore drug addict and was hurting them and taking whatever he could from them etc.

Ok so they go around the circle and they all said all this stuff mostly negative like protect yourself and cut off contact with him. I know some things about al-anon such as they are all about reward positive action and shun negative, etc etc.

Almost the entire group had said to limit their dealings with him or cut him out all together to protect themselves. It got to me, and I said a lot of stuff, but I'm going to paraphrase. I said look don't give him any money, but if he needs help with his cell phone bill maybe help him out. If he needs help with rent, give it directly to his landlord. I'm giving you guys the short version I really said some heartfelt stuff. Finally I told them, sometimes hearing "I love you" on the phone is the only thing keeping a person alive who has destroyed their life with drugs or alcohol. I saw tears in their eyes. I've seen what suicide does to people and i've felt it when it happened to someone close to me. I just couldn't sit there and take a chance they could lose their son because of a room of damaged people trying to protect them and themselves in what to me was a little misguided way.

After the meeting was over, I was chatised by one member of al-anon, told "you can't cross talk during meetings" which is to say i'm not aloud to address them directly. Her voice and mannerisms said that she didn't agree at all with the things I said. Another member came to me and was incredibly warm, and she said that she felt that I reached those people and had helped them.

I concluded that I don't really understand their group fully, most likely because I was the one hurting them.

CarolD

I did use Al anon when I was dealing with 2 of my young
adult childrens addictions to various substances.

It did a lot for me ...mainly to rid myself of guilt and the idea
of how to set needed boundaries....

In those days.I did not have a ddrinking problem..knew nothing ..
about AA or NA or Al anon. All I knew for sure...was I
was not helping the 3 of us with my actions/inactions.

And I had started to use alcohol myself to cope not just socially
Unfortunately it was decades before the 3 of us began our recovery lives.

I'm sorry to know you lost a friend .....and hope your
words did help those parents.
Perhaps next time you run into this situation sharing your
experiences outside of a meeting would be better.

All my best

laurie6781

Okay, here goes. First let me say that I have been sober using AA for many years. On my 3rd Anniversary in AA my sponsor STRONGLY suggested I start attending AlAnon and get an AlAnon sponsor, due to the marriage I was in with a sober alkie, that had switched additions to gambling.

So I have also been an active member of AlAnon for many years. AlAnon is about the Co Dependent spouse, sibling, significant other, close friend, parent or child of an Alcoholic. It is about the Co Dependent taking back their life and getting off the 'roller coaster' of addiction. It is about NOT ENABLING in any way the A in their lives.

Had my mother and father not CUT ALL TIES WITH ME (you can read my story in the story forum) and absolutely told me in no uncertain terms it was MY PROBLEM and I had to deal with it, I would not have gotten the help I finally did.

AlAnon is about 'allowing' the A to experience the CONSEQUENCES of their actions.

AlAnon is about the 3 C's.:

I didn't Cause it. (the addiction).

I can't Control it. (the addiction).

I can't Cure it. (the addiction).

I have known and sponsored many Alcoholics over these past 29 1/2+ years, many who were literally kicked out the way I was, and they ended up most appreciative of what their 'family' did for them in that final act.

As far as paying an A's rent or cell phone, NOPE. I lived the last one and half years of my drinking on the streets of Hollywood. It was quite a 'wake up' call for this alkie.

I am very grateful that my parents did not 'enable' me into the grave.

AA is for the Alkie to learn how to live sober. AlAnon is for the Co Dependent to learn how to take one's life back and stop enabling.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

Hopeworks

I am an adult child of an alcoholic, sister to an alcoholic, married to a recovered alcoholic and through my profession I work with families that wish to use a criminal arrest of their addicted relative to stage an intervention with some legal teeth.

I am also a psychology minor who has read hundreds of books on this subject and I will tell you that there are no "formulas" or easy answers when it comes to the incredibly complex problem of an individual struggling in the darkness of addiction. There are a number of different philosophies and a huge amount of conflict about the treatment of alcoholism and addiction.

I am also a member of Alanon but just like AA it is a group of people who are sharing their experience strength and hope with others in similar life situations. In a perfect world everyone in the group is working a spiritual program and has completed the 12 steps and their words reflect what they are hearing from their HP ( My anonymous HP is Jesus C. and my thoughts, beliefs and actions hopefully always reflect what he believed to be how we should react to situations).

Sometimes what we hear in meetings sounds more like the Old Testament than the New and finding that balance and wisdom on the best course of action for your own loved one may not be exactly what the "textbook" answer is (in my humble opinion).

As a person of prayer I truly believe that releasing the situation to God is so important to our own peace of mind and asking God to lead us with his peace on what actions to take. I have seen well thought out planned interventions work amazing miracles in families! As I am a bail agent and am executing a private contract for release from jail I discuss the various options with the family and the accused and we agree on a course of recovery action (residential, out patient, house arrest, counseling etc...). I actually add these to the bail contract and if the defendant fails to comply with conditions he could find me at the door with handcuffs and get a free ride back to jail. That doesn't happen very often because "pain" is an excellent motivator and nothing is more painful that a jail cot and jail food for an extended period of time.

That being said.... if the alcoholic/addict is zero interested in recovery any sobriety will be shortlived once the handcuffs are no longer motivating them. But... often... they do get the chemicals out of their foggy brain and they do have a spiritual awakening and get set free from their addiction and stay in recovery.

So... learning to set boundaries, taking care of ourselves and getting family members and friends involved in a course of action to raise the bottom for the alcoholic/addict helps everyone cope with the mixed emotions of "not rescuing". If clear choices are given with consequences attached and the person refuses help you have to follow through and be consistent and everyone needs to be on board.

It is a fine line, sometimes razor thin, and highly complicated decisons that the loved ones are faced with... and Alanon often has some angry folks attending who have been very hurt that do speak out.

That is why you eat the hay spit out the straw at meetings (take what you need and leave the rest), pray for your loved one and yourself, seek information on message boards like this (knowledge won't keep you sober but it really helps to know WHY you feel the way you do!), seek out professionals (counselors, etc)... basically you do everything you know to do to help you navigate the situation as wisely and as healthy as possible for all concerned.

Hope my perspective sheds some light on your question!

LexieCat

I'm a bit confused. You simply "stumbled into" an Al-Anon meeting, by accident, and you proceeded to tell the people there what they should be doing? And you're wondering why you didn't get a standing ovation?

AA discourages cross-talk at most meetings, too, so THAT is far from an Al-Anon phenomenon. The idea is that we share our individual experience, strength, and hope rather than giving each other advice.

As the others here have pointed out, it isn't simply a matter of making sure the addict/alcoholic isn't using our money to use/drink. So paying the cell phone company or the landlord directly isn't the answer. The point is that if the alcoholic/addict can't support him/herself because of their addiction, as long as mom or dad or boyfriend or girlfriend is willing to foot the bills, why should they quit using/drinking? There are too few negative consequences to continuing in their addiction. If continuing to use/drink results in not having a place to live, not having food to eat, not having a cell phone to talk to anyone, winding up in jail, etc., the unmanageability of life as an active addict/alcoholic can no longer be denied.

This isn't easy for loved ones to do. The disease makes the addict/alcoholic rage that no one loves him/her: "If you loved me, you'd (pay my rent/give me a place to live/feed me/pay for my cell phone)." But caving and catering to the wishes of the disease only lets it continue as it wants to. So, as difficult as it is for parents and partners to stop supporting the disease, it ultimately helps the addict/alcoholic to recognize their own responsibility to get well or not.

ste

Very well said Hopeworks.
I'm an alcoholic with my (our) own problems. Wish we all had the "wisdom of Soloman". My 38 year old stepson (what addiction(s) still in question) actually beat his mother, my wife, complaining she ruined his life. How? She quit financincing the 38YO poor boy.

She still blames herself for not raising him (with an alcoholic ex-husband) properly. At first I wanted to kill him, now the best I can do is realize he is sick, and any monetary help will exacerbate his sickness. Still trying to find the strength to pray for him non Old Testament style.

Bamboozle

I hear what you're saying, UNY. I'm glad my parents put up with me...if it wasn't for them, I'd be dead. I'm grateful I have a roof over my head and a bed to sleep in. They've been patient and understanding, and because of that, I've been getting help for depression for nearly two years--I've also remained sober for nearly two years.


My situation is my situation. There are many others with different situations--and I can completely understand detaching. Some people just won't quit and it tears families apart to not be able to do ANYTHING to help. They must detach--the responsibility is ultimately on the addict to quit. As much support as my parents have given me, the one thing they couldn't give was a desire to stop and change my life. I'm not sure what the breaking point would be for my parents to 'give up'---I don't ever want to find out---but parents and other loved ones go through and put up with a lot of crap before they realize it's out of their hands. All the love in the world can't save someone who doesn't make the effort to help him/herself. I had to realize that something was wrong with me and that I needed professional help before I could change. I got that help and my parents have been supporting me every step of the way. I have a great resonsibility to make sure my depression remains manageable. I know who to call when the crap hits the fan--I know what I have to do to tackle this beast.

The loved ones of addicts go through a far different hell than what we experience. It's not up to us to tell them how they should deal with their struggles or with their pain. We addicts need to take responsibility for our problems.

Hopeworks

In my profession I hear the saddest stories on the planet... I have one client who from the age of 5 was sexually molested by his grandfather, abused by both parents both physically and verbally (both used drugs), was riduculed at school because of abject poverty (they lived in their car and he looked the part), was diagnosed bi-polar and ADD and passed along by teachers as he was a very angry difficult personality.

At 8 years old he started whiffing gas and sexually touched his sisters (they slept together for obvious reasons) and the guilt drove him to set himself on fire with gasoline. Severely burned the emergency sent him home because they had no insurance.. he still has scars to this day.

He turned to alchol, drugs, violence and gangs and ended up in jail. His mother came into my office and was suicidal (he had finally told her about the grandfather's sexual abuse). She wanted to bond him out but had no money and now was racked with guilt over her own neglect, past abuse and now he was facing 50 years in prison.

He had been in jail for 5 months awaiting trial and had taught himself to read the Bible. Knowing that he could read gave him the courage to face his future.

We warehouse people like this man... all the time. I got this "hopeless" case out of jail and he is now going on 2 years sober (he did 1 year of it in prison).
The entire family is now drug free and all are working on their issues and relationships in pastoral counseling. They are recovering and are happier than they have ever been in their entire lives.

Miracles do happen. No matter how "hopeless" things can appear. Do not give up your hope... release the outcome to God as He is ultimately the one who can reearrange the stars in the sky if that what it takes... you just don't know the timing that it needs to happen in for it to make a difference.

Just pray for the wisdom and the peace and it will come.

nandm

The highlighted in bold are two statements that stood out to me in your post.

First: I have personally seen what suicide does and unfortunately many alcoholics/drug addicts turn to it before they turn to recovery. My partner's brother did just that. She is plagued by guilt as to why was she able get recovery but he would not. He had the same opportunities. He came from the same support systems i.e. family and background. I was at the suicide vs solution situation when I found AA. I had decided that if I could not find a way to live without alcohol that I would just put a gun to my head as alcoholism is just a slow suicide that takes any and everyone we care about down with us. Fortunately that is when I found AA. It literally saved my life. Anyone who has been suicidal knows that it is not so much what is going on outside of them but what is going on on the inside. That is what destroys a person. So anyone who has a friend/family member/acquaintance who is suicidal is at risk of losing them every day.

Second: Yes they are a room full of damaged people, just as any group of alcoholics/addicts. Aren't we all damaged in one way or another? Who are you to say they are misguided. Have you ever been in their shoes, watching someone close to you die the slow and miserable death that is alcoholism/drug addiction? Have you ever loved someone to death? That is what condoning and supporting the behaviors of the alcoholic/addict is doing. By paying their rent, utilities, car, phone, etc.... we make it easier for them to not face the gravity of their situations. As many alcoholics can testify we each have to hit a bottom (be it emotional or physical) before we can reach out for help. Condoning and supporting the behaviors will only prolong them hitting their bottom.

I am an alcoholic and utilize ALANON as well just for the record. Do I completely understand all of both philosophies? I doubt it. But what I do know is that they work for many people and have for years.

If you do not agree with their philosophy then why attend their meetings. If you have a plan that you feel works better then start a meeting of your own. But to attend their meetings and try to tell them how to run their program is simply wrong since you have admitted you do not understand how ALANON works. Do you also run down the AA program since you are not there to stop drinking but as you said you are there because the court says you have to be?

I don't ask these questions to attack you but rather to help you see more than just your side of the picture. 3 people can view the same scene at the same time and each walks away with a different picture in their mind. The same is true of attending an AA or ALANON meeting. It is important to keep an open mind about the other 2 views of the picture.

sailorjohn

Agreed.

Seren

Hi UNY! I, too, am coming from the Al-Anon side of this picture, and it is true, you can't understand. Anymore than I can understand what life is like for you and an addict. I am sorry for your struggles and I'm glad that you are beginning to seek help for yourself.

Let me try to explain the experience that I and my husband had with his addict son (Jr.).
Mr. HG did pay for his son's cell phone:
Jr. would rent out to his dealers to pay for his crack, so Mr. HG cut that off.
Mr. HG had a small pick-up truck that he purchased for Jr. to use:
Jr. would act as a drug runner for the dealers to get his crack. Later we moved the truck out of Mr. HG's name into Jr.'s name, Jr. wrecked the truck.
Mr. HG allowed Jr. to stay in his house:
Jr. nearly drank himself to death in his room, never paid rent, brought a dealer into his father's home.

After these privileges were taken away from him in order to stop enabling his addiction, Jr. has threatened to kill 3 members of his family. He has stolen from, defrauded, lied to nearly everyone who cares about him. He has now been in jail maybe 4 times. He HAS NOT ACCEPTED RECOVERY OF ANY KIND.

In order to protect ourselves from his self-destructive and occasionally violent actions, to protect ourselves financially and emotionally, to keep from being pulled along on his mad ride, we severly limit our interactions and contact with him. He does not know where Mr. HG and I live now that we are married.

When we do see him/speak to him, we tell him that we love him. We do not pay for his bills, we do not provide a place for him to live, we do not pay for his phone or a car. Jr. is 29 years old. As an adult he needs to be allowed the dignity of solving his own problems and of taking care of his own needs.

I hope that this helps you to perhaps understand that when family are dealing with an addict in active addiction, no contact may be the only option we have.

Justfor1

Newyork, I entirely understand what you said and agree. What does Alanon members due when their loved ones suffer from mental illness as well? What about when the cold whether is 0degrees outside? What about the family member who needs to be on house arrest instead of jail/prison? My third treatment center mentioned that family support was a major key to sobriety.

Seren

Hi Justfor1,

It sounds as though you are going through a lot right now and are asking from rather personal experience.

When there is an adult family member who is mentally ill as well as suffers from the chronic condition of addiction, it is a very tough situation. Because someone is an adult, they may choose to not get help. Sometimes, adults can be committed against their will for a few days for a complete psychiatric evaluation. Depending on the results of that evaluation, they may be found to stable enough to be released. There are members on the F and F forum who are currently going through this very situation, and there are few clear-cut answers.

Although I have no experience with someone being placed on house arrest, I would imagine that if the judge knew there was no house involved, that jail would become the solution.

Now, as far as "putting someone out in the cold".....well, perhaps a few more Jr. stories will help you to understand it from the familly's point of view.

My A stepson lived with his father prior to our getting married. Jr. nearly drank himself to death in his room, and after being hospitalized for that, he turned to crack. His violent behavior and threats made it necessary for Mr. HG to get him out of the house (Jr. was 27 at the time). Mr. HG offered to assist him in getting started in an apartment of his own if he 1) did not use drugs, 2) got a job, and 3) did not get in trouble with the law. On the weekend he was supposed to move out, Jr. went on a crack bender, got arrested, and lost his job.

So, I ask you Justfor1, whose fault was that?

Jr. did find an apartment and did move out that weekend. But, his continued drug use caused his roommates to kick him out.

Again, whose fault was that?

Jr. found another place to live after that. Again, his benefactor kicked him out because of his drug use.

Once again, whose fault was that?

Now, all this happened during the winter, and it was cold out. Ultimately he was resourceful enough to find someplace to stay and eventually lived at the local homeless shelter.

Let me ask you something, Justfor1: Are we supposed to take this violent, drug addicted GROWN MAN into our home and let him continue to steal from us, lie to us, try to use drugs under our noses, bring drug dealers into our home, threaten to kill us ALL BECAUSE HE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE COLD?

This young man is told every time we have contact with him that we love him and we encourage him to do the right thing for himself by seeking recovery. He has yet to want that for himself, and there is nothing we can do to force the issue. He choses his actions, he must accept his consequences.

I hope that you continue to talk to others who have the same chronic illness of addiction and work to make the better life for yourself that you deserve. I know that you can do it!

HG

LexieCat

Thanks, HG.

What UNY and JF1 seem not to understand is that it isn't about "punishing" the alcoholic/addict. It is about not saving them from the consequences of their own actions.

We all learn from experience. When we are children, we touch something hot and it makes a big OWWWIIIEEE. We learn to avoid things that are hot.

While parents quite rightly try to protect very young children from things like serious burns, sooner or later every kid has to experience the pain of touching something hot. If they never did, they would never appreciate how seriously it can hurt and injure you.

As long as an alcoholic's loved ones are ready to rescue the alcoholic from the natural consequences of their actions (you sleep in because you are drunk or hungover and you are likely to lose your job), they can continue to deny that their lives are becoming unmanageable because of their addiction.

Similarly, as HG points out, innocent people do not have to live with the chaos that addicts have following them around like a dark cloud. They have the right to a peaceful life.

So, by refusing to enable the alcoholic to continue to drink with impunity, it is a win-win. The alcoholic has to face facts, NOT because someone is force-feeding them to him/her, but because they are the natural consequences of continuing to drink. The family is relieved of the responsibility for protecting the alcoholic from those consequences, and in the bargain, doesn't have to live with being lied to, stolen from, manipulated, etc.

Justfor1

UNY I give you credit for staying for the meeting. I would of ran out the door. I do not understand the "other side" at all and sadly don't think I ever will.

Toronto68

Unique, since the day you wrote this, have you had any conversations with people that make you see the philosophy (or at least what was going on in that meeting) differently?

Justfor1

I sometimes see family members of alcoholics/addicts feel better when their loved ones end up in jail. Jails/prisons do not in any way help a substance abuser. Jails can be very violent and substance abusers are usually the low man on the totem poll. Addicts will be frequently taken advantage of by violent inmates. How ironic huh? "3 hots and a cot" is the saying but how about having to sleep on the floor with bugs and having your sandwich lunch stolen from you Homeless shelters mimic jails to some extent. It destroys me what I did to family/friends, however, at some point I need to get over it.

LetsGoJets

we (the alcoholic/addict) are their drug.

Justfor1

I understand that part. However, what consequences are there for the family of substance abusers? Emotional instability is the only one I can see. The alcoholic/addict suffers from that, in addition, to financial, legal, shelter and physical problems. Outsiders often think that the alcoholic/addicts has an easy life "partying" every day. Nothing could be further from the truth.