Justme57

Whoooo ! Dr Dave , great information, very reassuring to this newly recovering Alcoholic !
HUGXX
Lee

panadolsandwich

DocDave, great post, great info.

But my god man, format that comment! I nearly had a seizure reading it and lost my place a least a dozen times! I resorted to printing it and reading with the aid of a ruler and a magnifying glass!

Just kidding mate, keep up the good work.

Bradley004

I agree, at the end I was confused as you seemed to say depression was "organic" and also the result of how we live?

Dr. Dave what is the net/net of you comments and by the way..ARE YOU A REAL DOCTOR? If so of what specialty (don't mean to be nosy).

I also question sons of alchoholics brain juice being low to being raised in an enviroment that was less than desireable. IOW, depression because of alchoholic upbringing is enough to make a perfectly healthy invd. depressed. Not necessarily due to a chemical makeup but depressed on how they are being raised.

As you stated our chemical makeup can be directly impacted by how we live.

I do agree with you however that no matter what the cause it still can effect us to the point we need help. And just like Advil is used to combat a headache so can an anit-depressent to help us get back on our emotional feet.

panadolsandwich

"Sons of alchoholics brain juice", "emotional feet", whew! glad I've never got any of those symptoms, could be nasty that!

Seriously though I'm glad to see you've got the gist of it.

Sorry guys in my infinite wisdom (laugh) yesterday I changed my appointment for assessment for detox from Wednesday to Thursday. The excuse being I needed to pay some bills today, but if I'd really wanted to I could have done it yesterday. I suppose I just wanted another day to drink. Now I'm moving about the house in state a state of torpor. I was walking like an old man climbing the stars just then - even taking a rest on the landing! Well the way I see it you've got to have a sense of humour about it, otherwise it's just too sad.

I'm definitely going tomorrow at 8am - I'll get a taxi. And if they don't take me I'll come home and do it myself.

Jon

Interesting discussion, but I take exception with the above quotes.

If you believe that G-d is either everything or nothing, than wasn't he involved in the creation of the scientists who discovered these medications as well as the Doctors who prescribe them?

You can't have it both ways.

You can't just say "I rely on Him" when He may have divinely inspired these medictions just for you and others like you.

When you say, "God says to come to Him in these times" isn't it an implication that those who are on medication "didn't" come to him?

As a recovering addict on meds, and as a former counselor and program director of a facility for dual-diagnosed men, I have experienced the nightmare of untreated mental illness combined with alcoholism/addiction. I have also witnessed the shame and guilt associated with being on meds, and the negative opinions by some members of 12-step fellowships.

When taking my guys to meetings, I got to the point where I advised them not to bring up their medication issues. I also reached a point that if somone in the meetings began to give medical advice, I would tell them to shut the f*** up until they could show me their medical degree.

I will admit that there is a problem with the current state of "meds first." That problem is in the diagnosis, and Patsy described it perfectly. Other than a detox protocol, no firm diagnoisis should be given to an alcoholic or an addict within their first 90-180 days of sobriety. The reason is simple; detox and early recovery can and do cause symptoms that mirror many types of mental illness including depression, bi-polar, schizo-affective disorder and even schizophrenia. The answers anyone would give when taking A Simple Screening Test for Depression or The Depression Test would probably change dramatically after just a few months sober.

To base a diagnosis on the observations of a person in early recovery can be irresponsible at best, and very harmful at worst.

To suggest to a newcomer that G-d or the Steps can remove the need for medication is self-rightous and egotistical, and can be fatal at worse.

As phoenix stated, the 12-steps were designed for one very specific thing: the treatment of low-bottom drunks. The program has been modified only in the sense that an attempt has been made to raise the level of the "bottom". These steps are now in use by over a hundred other organizations, but still remain focused on a singular substance or behavior. The steps, for those that have chosen to work them, perform the task they were designed for quite well.

I almost always cringe when I see medications discussed on the boards. I always worry about a new person making decisions based on an Internet "conversation." And I absolutely shudder when specific medications are brought up and compared.

My opinion, based on my personal experiences and observations, is that the medication issue needs to be firmly based in the realtionship between Doctor and patient. And this relationship depends on complete honesty, (which we addicts are not very good at, especially in front of a doctor), an exchange of information, follow-up, and compliance.

And there are support groups for those on meds in recovery. Dual Recovery Anonymous http://www.draonline.org/ and Dual Diagnosis Anonymous http://dualdiagnosis.org were both places that I turned too where I could share openly and honestly about my medications and receive support.

Why would you need to state this when you're not even ON Prozac?

The truth is that MY opinion regarding meds shouldn't be given much weight by anybody needing help in this area. While someone may be able to identify and relate with my experiences with depression or mania, my solutions and tools for living with them might make someone else even worse. Opinions aren't always just opinions. They can be harmful and even dangerous.

If I am really to be of service, then I need to realize when I shouldn't try to be.

More info:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/Article...epression.html

http://www.soberrecovery.com/Article...lcoholism.html

Justme57

Jon, I must say that I agree totally with everything you have said . As a health professional, and also a new to recovery Alcoholic . I have drunk steadily for 37 years , and suffered dreadful depression, and paranoia . i did not realise , until I became sober, that it would seem that the depression and paranoia appear to have been , if not caused by , definitely exacerbated by the booze .

If I had gone to a Doc , while I was drinking, and of course , I would not have been honest , regarding my drinking, i have abslutely no doubt that I would have been put on Meds , because my symptoms were verging on the Psycotic .

My point being , that as you say , depression in Alcoholics ,cannot be properly diagnosed until some sobriety has been achieved .

This said, i have also done my Psych Nursing, and have seen the benefits of antidepressants , when correctly prescribed , for bi polar , and Endogenous , depression. So, I believe , everyone to their own.

btw, I have never heard drugs denegrated , or discussed at my AA meetings , is it common for people to critisise those on drugs ? I only ask cos i am new , and did nort know of that attitude is all

cheers
lee

Bradley004

Jon, I also stated that God said "all things are good just that not all things are good for you". Of course meds are good. How much can I repeat myself that my "challenging" of meds is for me..I open it to others for their input . But I have a problem with the attitude one cannot discuss anything "borderline" because they run the risk of people running and taking bad advice?

The internet has all info not just the right info. It is up to US to discern the difference. We must discuss, way the pros/cons and do our homework. Depressed, happy and what not. I think we ALL agree Doctor knows best but we also realzie not ALL doctors make the right analysis when it comes to addiction.

My conscience tells me I don't need another drug to withdrawal from that doesn't mean someone else could not. Let me repeat--it is a PERSONAL choice.

I should not shut up because someone reads into questions?? No I am not on prozac but as Dr. Dave stated MANY people don't even need them. Is it wrong to quesiton yourself? Or is everyone that posts on this forum mentally dificient to think for themselves even in the gray area!!! That's all.

...turns out the majority of this thread is meds are good. Not disagreeing, ok????

And my belief in God is MY SUCCESS, so why should I not share. But I NEVER SAID IT IS GOD'S WAY FOR EVERYONE TO NOT USE PRESCRIBED MEDS. I agree'd with Dr. Dave that if it inhibits your life..THANK GOD for meds. I

Ya know, I have been tempted too to drink ON THIS VERY FORUM...reading the Wiebie thread..does that mean WEibie should not post anymore on his trial/error of recovery? Of course not...it finally took myself to realize each time I "tested" my sobriety...leaned with some outlooks to "wean" myself of alchhol just made it worse for me. But I don't lecture Wiebie or anyone else for their methods. Besides I am questioning not making a patent on drugs/no drugs?

So enough already attacking me. I have repeatedly said I am OPEN. And by questioning whether or not to use drugs of any kind is always good WHEN YOU ARE RECOVERING FROM ADDITION TO A DRUG. hello

Bradley004

JON said.."You can't have it both ways. "

..."You can't just say "I rely on Him" when He may have divinely inspired these medictions just for you and others like you..."

I think you need to educate yourself alittle. God made everything, allows everything and is ultimately our salvation.

But what does that have to do about questioning meds for drug addiction? Alchohol is also from God if you look at it..but not WISE to use and abuse outside of what it is intended for.

Working, family are also God's gifts but He doesn't expect us to do nothing and live successful. Disciipline, work, fiancial is also a part.

People that think the belief in God means you go with out are the ones I call FANATICS. God expects us to use His gifts wisely. So He can make a drug and have you use it...just wanted to open it up to make sure it's right for you. How you go about that is your decision.

Bradley004

One more thing then I'll shut up...

Jon, I can bet you if I made an appt right now to go to a doctor told him I was depressed..9 times out of 10 he'd give me a prescription for Prozac or something. I'm not even saying it may not help.

My point in this ENTIRE discussion is there is nothing wrong with questioning..getting others respnses that have tried it..read, see the pros/cons...maybe even take time to try w/out...before you run to that prescription. How is that wroing? Why do I have to have taken it to question it?

I probably would be on prozac if was offerered 20 yrs. ago. Would take ANYTHING to not expereince uncomfortable feelings. But I already had a drug..alchohol.

Jon, alchohol is not bad. It's when I abuse it. I have read plenty of horror stories people becoming physcotic on prozac so it's worth the debate as far as I am concerned.

But lifestyle, chemical makeup, physical problems ultimately drive one to use certain drugs. Hense why they work for so many and why they are defended with such passion!

But also what works for those taken it can be someone elses downfall..WORKS BOTH WAYS.

I know I'd be addicted to prozac and have all kinds of issues if I was prescribed BECAUSE I KNOW HOW I AM AND HOW I ABUSED THAT HERB 20 years ago.

The internet is full of pedaphiles, porno, wackos, sicko's, predators, false information, thieves..but it is also a tool used for good. Internet is not bad..it's the people that use it. We are responsible to way the truth.

People that are on meds are no exception. If one needs to be very careful what to say/not to say in terms of sobriety... or someone will slit their wrist ..seems to me the meds are their LEAST concern..

Justme57

Bradley said :Or is everyone that posts on this forum mentally dificient to think for themselves even in the gray area!!! That's all.

No, Bradley , I think not !
I wish YOU well, in your recovery

Cheers
lee

Bradley004

Sorry all, I admit I went off. I just think it is very close minded to not discuss hot issues in light of enabling someone to take bad advice? Gosh,,,for that matter TV, news, commercials can be everyone's downfall. Sorry for the harshness.

And Jon I apologize to take it out on you. I respect all peoples experiences and go on record that meds are a gift from God and it is up to you and your experiences and faith to use them and they can be very good. But although they are good, it is not UNWISE to question whether you need them.


IT'S YOUR DECISION.

Patsyd1

Hey ya ((((((Bradley)))))))))

I would suggest getting to a real, live, AA meeting

Cause when reading someone elses posts, you begin to claim that it "makes" YOU want to drink........ then its time to STOP reading and DO something about it.

Love
Patsy

Jon

My main point here Bradley is this:

If you're not on meds. haven't been told to go on meds, don't feel you need or want meds, then what exactly is your motivation for starting a discussion about meds?

We try to keep our sharing centered around our personal experiences. No one can "debate" anything you or I have actually been through.

And it is through the sharing of our experiences that we help others and ourselves.

phoenix

I must have missed you questioning meds for drug addiction.I heard you talking about antidepressants,and your beliefs about how depression as an illness doesn't exist.This is the Alcoholism forum.It's for people who want to share experience, strength and hope in recovery from alcoholism.If you wish to debate your beliefs about other issues which you have no experience with, maybe you need to find a more appropriate outlet.

It has been a good discussion,but I think it has reached the point of beating a dead horse....an activity I feel may be an addiction for some

phoenix

Don W

Hi Bradley, I don't end up with a, quick feel good , after I take my medication. Like others said it took weeks before I felt any change. If, that was the case I could just take the pill and skip the rest. The fact is that many times while taking the medication I still am not a happy camper.What ends up making me feel better is using the tools given to me.
Today, on the way to work I started to feel uptight for no reason. I had taken my medication at the house. I took out my cell and called a friend in the program. I told him about it. We talked and made plans and the feeling left.
My feel good comes from my actions.
Pill, or no pill, I can make myself pretty
unhappy. If, you can find away to test yourself, and stay sober great. My self,
I have found that if I don't take the test
I can't fail. Almost every slip I ever had
were the result of testing myself.
As long as everyone understands that
we post of personal experiences, and
nobody should change there support without proper advice. I do enjoy the topic and the different thoughts.
Don W

Bradley004

Don W., thanks for your respectful reply. Thank you.

Jon/Phoenix, your right about me debating..sorry for using this thread for that. I just had questions and it turns into a debate since I'm the only one "seemingly" questioning..??

Jon, one question you had :...If you're not on meds. haven't been told to go on meds, don't feel you need or want meds, then what exactly is your motivation for starting a discussion about meds?"

Answer: I was QUESTIONING! Hense, I don't feel I need to be meds, told to go them or feel one way or another about them? Reason for questioning?...because I am trying all methods of sobriety and all the chatter about meds helping so much ..some even said if they w/have had their anti-depressent years ago they w/not have drank..HENSE...wanted to know if I should try it.

Have not been to a therapist, phsychiatrist so that is mute. But know they would give me a prescription based on the word depression or anxiety. That's what they do best. lol (kidding)

Patsy, we come here for information as much as sharing..sharing strengths, etc. So I like to try what I feel "speaks" to me. At the time...weaning off the alchohol didn't seem a bad idea. Also there was alot of talk of "rationalizing" your reasons..hense I tried to go back to drink to "see". I understand the 12 steps but I also agree with the Smart method AND the most important...God's steps.

Jon

Makes more sense now. ANd you are absolutely right about info versus sharing.

This site was designed to provide resources and information from many sources, to all who seek help. The reqason for the seperation of some of the forums is simple: For every alcoholic and/or addict, there is a method of recovery for them.

The 12 Steps are the most well known because they are the most accessible. They have no greater success rate than any other method, but because of thier accessibilty, help many, many more people than most other methods.

Church, therapy, counseling, support groups, medication, SMART, and others all work. Every one of them. The reason is that the program is not nearly as important as the person, and their willingness.

It is natural for us to believe that the way we got sober is the "best" way. Very often you will hear people from particular programs dismiss those that are doing it a different way. Fear and insecurity are behind those behaviors.

Any and all methods can work. And for those that believe in G-d, I'm sure he had a hand in all of them...

Patsyd1

Hi Bradley,

To each their own. I have nothing to comment on other programs or other methods of getting sober......for one simple reason....... they didn't work for this drunk. Will they work for others...... I have no idea, but I wish anyone the best with whatever method they choose to gain sobriety.

The message that I carry, the one from Alcoholics Anonymous, is the only message that i have to pass on, because that is what worked for me. Some see it as "thumping" AA..... I see it as passing on what was passed to me....... because thats what worked for me, and thats all I have to pass on. Is that thumping AA? Nope, its simply passing on what was passed to me.

I did try other methods and for this drunk, they simply didn't work.

So I continue to carry the only message that I have to carry....the one that worked for this drunk..... AA meetings and the 12 Steps.

I sure can't pass on something that didn't work for me. I would be dishonest if I tried to speak to any other way of getting sober but the 12 Steps.

There are many here that can speak to other methods that have worked for them..... the only thing that I can share about is what worked for me.

There is much room here to speak of ones own experience, strength and hope with whatever worked to bring about ones sobriety, and peace of mind.
The 12 Steps of recovery is the only thing that I can share about, and yes there are many more. I will not be sharing about those other programs for one simple reason......... thats not what worked in my life..... AA is.

Does that mean that those other programs will not work for others? NOPE.... they very well may work for them...... but I can not share about those programs....... there are many who can.

I believe to come here for information is wonderful...... if one is seeking others experience. I also believe its quite dangerous to be seeking information about "medication" of any kind here at this site. Everyone is different, so the information that one obtains about any medication.....is information of what worked for that individual person and its not helpful to anyone else but that person. Because each person needs to be examined for their own physical, and mental needs.......by a licensed and qualified M.D. that has taken the time to throughly examine that individual.

There are no "across the boards" Meds that will work on each person the same way.

Yes, I work the simple program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and through the 12 steps I have been brought to a place in my life where thank God I am at peace on the inside.

My hope for anyone coming here to this site is that they find what works best for them........ no matter what that is.

As far as Medications......... it doesn't matter what program we are in, what program works for us individually, what method we choose to continue our sobriety...........none of that changes the simple fact that WE are not Doctors and the information that is afforded here at this site..... is how something worked for that one individual, personally.

So if wanting or needing information regarding medications..... its a pretty dangerous thing to come to any internet site seeking answers from anyone. For the well being of each individual here both physically and mentally......... its best to be well informed, and be an advocate in ones own recovery and life. The way to do that is to contact a qualified, licensed professional in the field that one needs information about.

Now, that is just my opinion......and it means about as much as anyone elses. LOL

The truth is that I have seen too many harmed by taking anothers information and "opinion" and applying it to themselves. This is not healthy, this not responsible, this is not what we are here for........for one simple reason........ WE are not qualified, or licensed Doctors. Even those who are qualified and licensed Doctors will agree that giving out information for anyone is a most dangerous practice..... because any qualified and licensed Doctor will tell you that everyone is different, each person needs to be examined for their individual needs.

So yes come and get all the information one wants regarding medications.........and then take that information to your own Doctor...... because to make blanket statements about those who take meds and those who don't.....is irresponsible at minimum, and dangerous at best.

Love
Patsy

Jon

Actually, "passing it on" can take many forms as well. The old-timers who brought me up in AA made it very clear to me that "Attraction Rather than Promotion" meant that I was to carry the message of AA only to those that expressed a desire to want what I have.

Anything else would just be preaching.

And there is nothing that will turn a drunk off to AA faster than preaching.

Patsyd1

Attraction rather than promotion is simply, actions speaking much louder than mere words.

Today, I am grateful for God, the 12 Steps of AA, and for all the AA members who guide me, because they themselves are powerful examples to this drunk of how this program really works, in action. The oldtimers at our home group are quick to share that if someone isn't walking the talk, then they are merely talking the talk. They suggest to stick with the winners for a good reason and the winners are the ones who are actually walking the talk. Recovery for this drunk is about physical, mental, spiritual and emotional sobriety, and being a power of example of what this beautiful and simple program can do in our lives one day at a time......and then passing it on by sharing our own experience, strength and hope with those who don't know there is a way out.

"Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers."

Attraction rather than promotion, can take many forms.....And at the risk of sounding preachy.... "carrying the message of AA ONLY to those who express a desire to want what I have".... is just not one of them.

They do not have to have a desire to want what I have or what you have Jon, we are just not that important. lol A desire to stop drinking is the only requirement for membership here in the halls of AA. Many come through those doors of AA not wanting what WE have.... but they keep coming because they see it works, in action..... and WE pass it on through our own experience, strength and hope so that WE may stay sober for one more day........whether they do or not.

I am responsible for what I share, I am not responsible for how anyone interprets my share. I can not get anyone sober and I can not make anyone drink.... I am just not that powerful.

I Am Responsible...
When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible.

Declaration of 30th Anniversary
International Convention, 1965