Dee74

whether or not you agree with these examples or their application here, relapse is a medical term and it is used widely for a variety of conditions.

Please keep the discussion polite respectful and civil.

D

Peta

I'm 5 months sober this week

I've given up drinking before and was sober for 18 months but not through AA - didnt believe I was an 'alcoholic', picked up again and then couldnt stop and went to AA

I dont believe AA is the only way to stop drinking - my father was a problem drinker and he stopped drinking 12 years ago and hasnt picked up- totally outside of AA.

I do however believe that there has to be some kind of spiritual element to lasting recovery. Some kind of help outside ourselves becuase if we've tried and failed to give up drinking lots of times - obviously our will isnt working for us (my father had a spiritual transformation where he felt he didnt want to be disconnected/numbed out etc from his higher power through drink)

Just my two cents

TwelveSteps

This is flat out not true. I go to a meeting every day and at most meetings, I know at least half and usually more like 80% of the people there personally and know their stories, they came in of their own free will.

GG

ZZworldontheweb

If the failure rate were 90% it seems like you should have many, many people at every AA meeting who identify themselves as first-timers and then just disappear, never to be seen again. And you just don't see that, at least not in my town. There is usually an average of about one new person at every 3 or 4 meetings, and when they do show up, they tend to keep coming.

Maybe, if you define every alcoholic who never tries to quit and never tries AA as a "failure", it makes sense. But that seems really unfair.

Regarding the 50% relapse rate, if we're saying that half of alcoholics who TRY to quit, succeed absolutely on the first try and never pick up a drink for the rest of their lives, that seems like a pretty good outcome.

If you take a person who slips once and gets drunk in 50 years of sobriety, and just throw him in the "relapse" heap along with those people who go to one AA meeting, abstain for one day, and then drink themselves to death, that also seems overly simplistic.

onlythetruth

On page 130 of the 12&12, it says that "the AA member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies." And on page 174: "Unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested 12 steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant."

I know that there are many good people in the rooms and here who don't use scare tactics or suggest that AA is the only way. But it is also not accurate to claim that "AA doesn't do that". It does.

OTT

Zencat

I'm thinking people that have these illness are in treatment and they fall off the treatment recommendations wagon. Maybe someone with diabetes starts to eat the wrong food's or stops taking their insulin. Then they have a return of symptoms so its called a relapse.

But whatever your entitled to your opinion. One thing I do accept is and especially with regards to recovery discussions. There is a whole lot of disagreement over just about everything.

Peter G

Personally speaking, I know a diabetic that RELAPSES constantly. Works on the same levels as us chronic alcoholics. He's morbidly obese and has been told if he doesn't stick with a strict diet, he will die young.

So Zen, I get what you were saying completely. Ironically, I used to look at my boy and scream "what the hell are you wolfing down those fries and that quarter-pounder for man!!" all mad and indignant that he can't see how much he's messing up his insulin, and going against his doctors advice. All pi$$ed off that he might die any time unless he keeps his diet right...... Meanwhile I'm putting back my 9th shot of JD.

Call it what you want, but IMO he relapses just like I used to, every time he strays from the diet and exercise that will save his life and indulges in things that WILL kill him.

Dopafiend

Unless you're writing some kind of research paper, for science, it really does not matter what the success rate is.

The only number that matters is your sobriety date. Is the program working for you? Good, then you are 100% successful.

Save the analysis for the scientists, and the sobriety for those who want it.

ACT10Npack

The thing is that not much study is going on with recovery success with alcohol or drug abuse. It would be really good for a big scientific study on the matter, so they can approve the treatment. I say this because all treatment as AA, rehab, SOS and other only have a 5% recovery rate. That's really low and we need something better so more people can get real help with their abuse problems and cope with it.

Peter G

I'm not sure how much better it will get until there's a test that proves beyond doubt the person seeking treatment actually needs it in the first place. It's been said in this thread a few times, many who come to AA are seeking a solution to a much less pressing problem than hard core alcoholism, and many are not even addicted. They come for the fellowship, for the experience, for the boost of spirituality. They leave once it's made evident the program is not for them, or because they got what they came for. I've even heard that some non drinkers stay long term, even though they've had maybe 2 glasses of wine in 4 years, finding solace in the program as it may apply to their life as self improvement in one way or another. Also as mentioned, others are present by court order only, with no intention of becoming sober. Even more still is the son, mother, father, daughter who was pressured into being there by a concerned family with nowhere else to turn.

When people like this open the door, look around and leave, they are being counted as AA failures, and part of this low statistic. That does not reflect as an accurate study of AA success/failure at all; the results are doomed at the outset. As the BB states, it was a system that came about and will help that special kind of dunk, the "hopeless" alcoholic that has tried everything else and failed miserably - the person with nowhere else to turn, and destined to die from the disease without the steps and the program. So how many of these desperate and truly dying people have stayed and ended up with long term sobriety as a result? I would make an educated guess now and say many have. They, WE have the great motivator. We've tried everything else, literally everything, and we still ended up on our backs and terminally drunk. Again, it will be impossible to know what success AA has had with the true hardcore alcoholics as long as studies continue to include every Tom, Dick, and Jane that enters the program.

To get accurate success rates, one has to have an accurate assessment for those who walk through the doors - those that are NOT alcoholics, and also for those who may in fact be drunks, but have NO intention of quitting. To the extent the BB was designed for the "hopeless" drunk, AA is still a fellowship of caring people, and the door is open to anyone with a desire to quit drinking. As it should be. That's one of the many wonderful aspects of AA, and also wholly counter productive to proving its' success against this disease. For accurate success rates and statistics, one would need a pretty heavy screening process to scrutinize the group as a whole, weaning out the weekend sippers from the heavy hitting, knocked down and not getting up kind of drunk. If you studied nothing but the real McCoy's I'd bet cash money that statistic would be a lot more flattering to the program.

My 0.02.

onlythetruth

According to a huge cross sectional study done by the US government in 2001-02, the percentage of people with alcohol dependence (which is the mental health world's definition of alcoholism) who quit drinking long term is more like 18%. And--at the risk of starting an argument about Harm Reduction and "real alcoholics"--an additional 17.7% of these people become low-risk drinkers. Only about 25% of people studied received any treatment at all. The single most significant predictor of recovery was: being married!

So the truth is that recovery rates are not as abysmal as this discussion would suggest.

I do think the study is worth a read, so I'll provide a link to it:

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicatio...-2/131-142.pdf

OTT

AA4life

AA doesn't work for many people. I know a lot of treatment centers are at about 10%. But yeah, I would say a lot of it is because addiction is very powerful. And, a lot of people that walk through the doors of AA may be there for the wrong reason.

This is why, those of us who are sober need to be very grateful for it. Not everyone makes it to sobriety.

I still don't understand why I quit drinking. But for some reason I did. I show up to meetings to keep reinforcing the idea that I don't want to go back.

Meetings are a form of insurance for me.

But, I do think that most people who become chemically dependent on alcohol don't stay sober forever no matter what treatment they do. Scary but probably true.

OK, now that I replied to the person who started this thread, I am going to read everyone else comments.

AA4life

That is what I have found too. The odds are against us. What are the exact numbers? Not too sure.

But, when I make sobriety my #1 priority and I go to a few meetings per week. And I read AA books and other recovery books, and come on here, I don't drink.

So far, for me, AA works if you work it. You can disregard the higher power aspect at first.

I also take Prozac, it reduces the number of triggers I have to deal with.

We all have to find our own path. AA can help you find that path much faster.

AA4life

I have read the same thing from those folks who have really studied this type of stuff. I know I tried a lot of stuff but AA is what works best for me.

joedris

You have to be careful here as the 2001-02 Survey published by the NIAA dealt with addiction as defined in DSM IV, which uses criteria to measure addiction a bit differently than other medical organizations. So basically what you end up with in discussing this study is arguing apples and oranges.
But AA refuses to claim a success rate in recovery as, many have mentioned, success can't really be defined, much less measured. My experience in AA has led me to believe that if someone wants sobriety and is willing to work for it, AA is highly successful so long as those people continue to remain in the program and practice the principles.
That having been said, AA isn't for everyone. Bill Wilson stated that we don't have a monopoly on recovery, and there are a lot of alternative programs out there that work better for some people than AA does. So don't worry about how many other people get sober in AA or any other program. Concentrate on your own recovery and find the program that works best for you.

LaFemme

Can I just say I'm really impressed how civil this thread is and how long its lasted...I thought for sure it would die a swift death when ikt appeared....kudos all!

We now return to ouir regularly scheduled programming