Reverse Elitism Amongst Alcoholic's
Proud Neonephalist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Coast BC Canada
Posts: 1,141
Reverse Elitism Amongst Alcoholic's
I've been on SR for six months now and have been subjected to a weird form of reverse elitism on more than a few occasions, where somebody disputes me calling myself an alcoholic and suggests I may only have been a problem drinker, or binge drinker.
I call it reverse elitism because it's invariably somebody who was a much worse drunk, had more complications during withdrawals, and who most certainly didn't manage to quit on their first try.
What's up with that?
Why would they put thoughts into my head like, "Well, maybe they're right. Maybe this time I won't let it get out of hand. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic and I'll be able to get pissed once in a while like I used to do years ago. Maybe it won't control almost every aspect of my life again, won't rob me of all the things that used to bring fulfillment to my life, won't make me make all those mistakes at work, or impact my wife and daughter so negatively this time. This time I won't pass out in my chair pretty much every night, wake up a few hours later, then finish whatever booze is left in the house."
I just don't get it.
Alcoholism is progressive. If I start drinking again there's a good chance I'll get just as bad as I used to be, then probably a lot worse. Why does it bother some people if I label myself an alcoholic if it keeps me from damaging my body and my life to the same degree that they did? I would think they would be happy that somebody jumped off that bus before it plummeted over the cliff.
Murray
I call it reverse elitism because it's invariably somebody who was a much worse drunk, had more complications during withdrawals, and who most certainly didn't manage to quit on their first try.
What's up with that?
Why would they put thoughts into my head like, "Well, maybe they're right. Maybe this time I won't let it get out of hand. Maybe I'm not really an alcoholic and I'll be able to get pissed once in a while like I used to do years ago. Maybe it won't control almost every aspect of my life again, won't rob me of all the things that used to bring fulfillment to my life, won't make me make all those mistakes at work, or impact my wife and daughter so negatively this time. This time I won't pass out in my chair pretty much every night, wake up a few hours later, then finish whatever booze is left in the house."
I just don't get it.
Alcoholism is progressive. If I start drinking again there's a good chance I'll get just as bad as I used to be, then probably a lot worse. Why does it bother some people if I label myself an alcoholic if it keeps me from damaging my body and my life to the same degree that they did? I would think they would be happy that somebody jumped off that bus before it plummeted over the cliff.
Murray
31/10/10
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 241
Great Point, Murray. I have the same here, people say don't see or know about what goes on inside me before I drink, when I drink and after I drink. No wonder they don't believe I am an alcoholic.
And listening to them is dangerous - these thoughts keep creeping back up. Just a glas with my family here, celebrate with a friend...
It's just a question of time (and not much time either) and I'll be taking the old beer cans and bottles out every morning, feeling ashamed and baffled at why I do it.
I don't believe recovery is easier for me than for anybody else - we all face different challenges and voices whispering...
Vee
And listening to them is dangerous - these thoughts keep creeping back up. Just a glas with my family here, celebrate with a friend...
It's just a question of time (and not much time either) and I'll be taking the old beer cans and bottles out every morning, feeling ashamed and baffled at why I do it.
I don't believe recovery is easier for me than for anybody else - we all face different challenges and voices whispering...
Vee
High on Life
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Been to Hell and Back
Posts: 1,157
I haven't noticed that one, but I have noticed that people on here with many years of sobriety or who happen to be Big Book Thumpers will jump all over you if you are saying something that doesn't resonate with their view on things. It's like they don't understand that there are different points of view and other things going on in life other than the Big Book. I believe the Big Book is a great book, but I don't think I have to subject myself to only reading one book for the rest of my life.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,058
I found that I don't focus on others in my recovery. I know what I am and I am doing the necessary work in my recovery to enjoy each and every day as much as possible.
Consuming myself with what others think is unhealthy for me. I am grateful everyday to be here and I am blessed with this beautiful life that I have created for me. No one knows what I my life was like but me and it is on me to seek out support in implementing the changes that I need and want.
SR has been invaluable in my recovery but as will everything in life....you have do what is best for you.
Focus on the positives.....leave the rest. I am an alcoholic in recovery. That no one can take away from me but me.
Keep it going!
Consuming myself with what others think is unhealthy for me. I am grateful everyday to be here and I am blessed with this beautiful life that I have created for me. No one knows what I my life was like but me and it is on me to seek out support in implementing the changes that I need and want.
SR has been invaluable in my recovery but as will everything in life....you have do what is best for you.
Focus on the positives.....leave the rest. I am an alcoholic in recovery. That no one can take away from me but me.
Keep it going!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 46
There absolutely IS an 'elitism', not just here, but in recovery groups generally. To me, it's a perverse form of egotism, and I find that when people have done that with me, they are trying to manipulate my mind, and feel superior. It has taken me many years to not give a damn what they think. I believe you have to be very single-minded in this area. Decide what you want and what you are, and refuse to let other people undermine what you have already decided about yourself. Its really none of their business,
they aren't any better than you.
they aren't any better than you.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 46
It seems hard to accept, but this business of declaring someone to be a 'heavy drinker' rather than an alcoholic etc is one of the horrible things about certain systems of recovery.
If someone comes in for the first time, they are 'diagnosed' as alcoholic. If they start disagreeing with the group norms, a hex is put on them, saying they are maybe only a 'potential' alcoholic or just a problem drinker, but not 'one of us'. Basically, noone is a 'real alcoholic' unless they do the program, and don't disagree with any of it.
My God, I have witnessed the subtle manipulation so many times in this area. It used to affect me when I was much younger, but I have learned that the people who do this are like old school bullies, who don't have an awful lot else in their life to feel 'superior' about. I cannot respect them anymore, but I do understand what they are at.
One way to counter it is not to even label yourself as anything. What about you don't drink, period? I tell people I'm not an alcoholic, and I never was. Who cares what they think, its my life.
If someone comes in for the first time, they are 'diagnosed' as alcoholic. If they start disagreeing with the group norms, a hex is put on them, saying they are maybe only a 'potential' alcoholic or just a problem drinker, but not 'one of us'. Basically, noone is a 'real alcoholic' unless they do the program, and don't disagree with any of it.
My God, I have witnessed the subtle manipulation so many times in this area. It used to affect me when I was much younger, but I have learned that the people who do this are like old school bullies, who don't have an awful lot else in their life to feel 'superior' about. I cannot respect them anymore, but I do understand what they are at.
One way to counter it is not to even label yourself as anything. What about you don't drink, period? I tell people I'm not an alcoholic, and I never was. Who cares what they think, its my life.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 270
Agree there are alcoholics who get married to their stories, and feel you must match up to be the real thing, and if you don't then you are 'something other'.
Just ignorance, wouldn't give it much concern.
If you let someone pronounce you alcoholic or not, you are making an error.
Just ignorance, wouldn't give it much concern.
If you let someone pronounce you alcoholic or not, you are making an error.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hull, England.
Posts: 169
AA as I understand it is the big book, the people who are members are the fellowship 'of' AA.
It is easy to confuse the two as being the same thing.
In my experience around AA there are many sick people with warped ideas of what what AA teaches. This can be incredibly confusing.
The big book clearly states a view on what an alcoholic is and how to recover from alcoholism. Anything that deviates from the big book is just opinion and not AA.
Listen for the people who talk about the big book. And read it.
It is easy to confuse the two as being the same thing.
In my experience around AA there are many sick people with warped ideas of what what AA teaches. This can be incredibly confusing.
The big book clearly states a view on what an alcoholic is and how to recover from alcoholism. Anything that deviates from the big book is just opinion and not AA.
Listen for the people who talk about the big book. And read it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: oklahoma city,oklahoma
Posts: 30
If you thing God forbid that you are a alcoholic than you are.
Big book thumpers who think like it's all or nothing as far as AA and the big book go are no different than some religous nut who goes too far with what their religion tells them is right or wrong.
It's 2011 not thousands of years ago. If you believe some of that stuff is wrong that's called progress in my book.
I bet if DR.Bob and Bill W. were still around they would be telling these die hards to work their own program and for god sakes don't impede another alcoholic's progress however they go about doing it.
Big book thumpers who think like it's all or nothing as far as AA and the big book go are no different than some religous nut who goes too far with what their religion tells them is right or wrong.
It's 2011 not thousands of years ago. If you believe some of that stuff is wrong that's called progress in my book.
I bet if DR.Bob and Bill W. were still around they would be telling these die hards to work their own program and for god sakes don't impede another alcoholic's progress however they go about doing it.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,906
this is an issue i've seen first hand too. not with me...fankly because i scared the s#it out most people who heard my story, but i find it very disturbing that some AA's think they are qualified to diagnose whether someone is an alcoholic or not.
bottom line is if you think you're an alcoholic, then you are. It dosen't really matter if in reality your a binge drinker or just a problem drinker...in the end they'll all provide the same consequences.
if they are too much of an elitist group, then find another. Somer AA groups are good, some suck.
bottom line is if you think you're an alcoholic, then you are. It dosen't really matter if in reality your a binge drinker or just a problem drinker...in the end they'll all provide the same consequences.
if they are too much of an elitist group, then find another. Somer AA groups are good, some suck.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Must be a full moon or something, LOL.... some interesting threads here lately, to be sure.
Reverse-elitism.... yea, I thought I felt that once or twice here at SR... all entangled with that business about "real alcoholic"/"hard drinker".... That whole thing, when I first encountered it was spooky, disturbing, irritating and I thought the people who were challenging me on that were... reverse elitist @ssholes.... Irresponsible even... Often times I'd sign off SR feeling shaken.... I thought .... whoa, a bunch of alkies gettin' inside my head like that... WTF!!!...... eF them...
Those experiences I had early on where some of the best I had here at SR, though maybe not the most comfortable...
Murray, what you felt was exactly what I did, and I think it was a very good thing.... It forced me to really look at the question... "Am I an Alcoholic?" ... from a completely different vantage point... not from one that assumes I am, but from one that assumes I am not.... Maybe, I am really NOT one of them, those elitist big book thumping b@stards...
You're not interested in AA so what they do with their big books shouldn't interest or bother you in the least... But you do have a vested interest in understanding, with as much certainty as you can muster, you own relationship with alcohol. Maybe shaking things up a little helps you to better understand it in the end.... It did for me
Good Stuff... Like Cabledude said... If you let someone else pronounce you an alcoholic, you are making an error...
Reverse-elitism.... yea, I thought I felt that once or twice here at SR... all entangled with that business about "real alcoholic"/"hard drinker".... That whole thing, when I first encountered it was spooky, disturbing, irritating and I thought the people who were challenging me on that were... reverse elitist @ssholes.... Irresponsible even... Often times I'd sign off SR feeling shaken.... I thought .... whoa, a bunch of alkies gettin' inside my head like that... WTF!!!...... eF them...
Those experiences I had early on where some of the best I had here at SR, though maybe not the most comfortable...
Murray, what you felt was exactly what I did, and I think it was a very good thing.... It forced me to really look at the question... "Am I an Alcoholic?" ... from a completely different vantage point... not from one that assumes I am, but from one that assumes I am not.... Maybe, I am really NOT one of them, those elitist big book thumping b@stards...
You're not interested in AA so what they do with their big books shouldn't interest or bother you in the least... But you do have a vested interest in understanding, with as much certainty as you can muster, you own relationship with alcohol. Maybe shaking things up a little helps you to better understand it in the end.... It did for me
Good Stuff... Like Cabledude said... If you let someone else pronounce you an alcoholic, you are making an error...
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
One of the most repected ladies in my home group is an alcoholic who's pattern was binge drinking for a couple of days a month...anyone that understands what an alcoholic is knows that it has nothing to do with the drinking, the actual act of using the drug of choice is the full stop to the sentence which is why when anyone with any knowledge of alcoholism talks about relapse they are referring to the process leading up to using the drug of choice which may be the alcoholics original one or a different (new) one, e.g. drugs, gambling, food, sex etc...
My advice would be to only talk to people who know about alcoholism (substance misuse or substance dependence) ...considering most alcoholics are raving lunatics drunk or dry, you have to be very picky...i know how to spot them in AA but on a forum i've very little chance of knowing who is who because we are all skilled in the art of lying and manipulation...ask anyone who's not an alcoholic who has been unfortunate enough to share our lives whilst active:-)
There's a saying in AA "Take what you want and leave the rest" although you might want to run what you want past someone who is already long term sober and in recovery because alcoholism is a subtle foe and what you think you want might just be leading up to that full stop to the sentence again...
My advice would be to only talk to people who know about alcoholism (substance misuse or substance dependence) ...considering most alcoholics are raving lunatics drunk or dry, you have to be very picky...i know how to spot them in AA but on a forum i've very little chance of knowing who is who because we are all skilled in the art of lying and manipulation...ask anyone who's not an alcoholic who has been unfortunate enough to share our lives whilst active:-)
There's a saying in AA "Take what you want and leave the rest" although you might want to run what you want past someone who is already long term sober and in recovery because alcoholism is a subtle foe and what you think you want might just be leading up to that full stop to the sentence again...
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
Just a thought. I came here to get sober, I was pretty positive I was an alcoholic, I was told that if I could find sobriety myself using willpower, I wasn't the "real alcoholic", this let me think that maybe my definition was wrong and I tested myself, and relasped to full blown alcoholic after a couple month period of regular drinking that progressed to worse than where I was when I began and ended up in the ER after a home detox.
Becareful with what you post, people are listening to you. (On a side note I don't blame anyone for my relaspe but myself, but some of the feedback helped to let my recivery slip.) Funny how I felt slighted at the fact the I wasn't a "real alcoholic"....like does anyone really want to be in that club??
Becareful with what you post, people are listening to you. (On a side note I don't blame anyone for my relaspe but myself, but some of the feedback helped to let my recivery slip.) Funny how I felt slighted at the fact the I wasn't a "real alcoholic"....like does anyone really want to be in that club??
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
Just my observation, but having spent some time in AA and around a fair share of alcoholics, more correctly people who have problems with alcohol, I notice a common thread that seems to run throughout.
We come to any support group whether it is on line or in meetings with low self esteem and a feeling of helplessness. After we achieve some modicum of success it seems that we want to let the world, and certainly ourselves see that we are BETTER than we were. Some folks do this with humility, but express their "control" over the demon rum by helping others and leading by example. Some start to try and assume a position of superiority and preach to the group. Particularly those who are still struggling. '
This is just my opinion, but most folks tend to mellow out as they have more time sober and don't have that need to show us and them that they have something going for them again! We are just a bunch of half baked cookies at best, and why be surprised that recovering alcoholics behave in some pretty strange ways?
I have gone through several phases over the years and I hope have settled for moderation and a willingness to pass on what I have learned. That doesn't mean that I am without very specific opinions about what worked for me, and after all we all only have OUR STORY to tell. I try and put myself in another's shoes before giving my opinion, but if I am certain that the individual is heading for disaster based on past observation I will gently try and explain why another way might serve them better.
Alcoholism is a very debilitating condition and it removes most rational thought from its victims. I notice that many who are angry and take umbrage at everyone else's ideas are usually those who are still very close to their last drink. This being the case I take that in to account before offering my opinion as to what they MAY want to “try.”
AA is how I got and stay sober, but it was the moderate people with a lot of time sober and patience who are in AA who really helped me. The Big Book is a "manual" for sober living and sober thought, it is not all there is, nor do I believe that the 99 men and 1 woman who helped put that book together ever thought it was the be all. They just told their stories and what they had done to solve a problem that was common to each of them.
My experience is that AA or any discipline requires concerted effort, more intense at the beginning and then an eye to maintenance as time goes by. Sobriety should give us our lives back. Those lives should expand as we leave a dependence on alcohol behind. Expansion demands that we broaden our horizon and become MORE not LESS tolerant of others and their views. That is how I view sober living.
Anyone who finds commonality with my thoughts and opinions will most likely approve of what I have written and anyone who doesn't will perhaps find fault. That is what makes life in a sober state so much fun.
Just my thoughts.
Jon
We come to any support group whether it is on line or in meetings with low self esteem and a feeling of helplessness. After we achieve some modicum of success it seems that we want to let the world, and certainly ourselves see that we are BETTER than we were. Some folks do this with humility, but express their "control" over the demon rum by helping others and leading by example. Some start to try and assume a position of superiority and preach to the group. Particularly those who are still struggling. '
This is just my opinion, but most folks tend to mellow out as they have more time sober and don't have that need to show us and them that they have something going for them again! We are just a bunch of half baked cookies at best, and why be surprised that recovering alcoholics behave in some pretty strange ways?
I have gone through several phases over the years and I hope have settled for moderation and a willingness to pass on what I have learned. That doesn't mean that I am without very specific opinions about what worked for me, and after all we all only have OUR STORY to tell. I try and put myself in another's shoes before giving my opinion, but if I am certain that the individual is heading for disaster based on past observation I will gently try and explain why another way might serve them better.
Alcoholism is a very debilitating condition and it removes most rational thought from its victims. I notice that many who are angry and take umbrage at everyone else's ideas are usually those who are still very close to their last drink. This being the case I take that in to account before offering my opinion as to what they MAY want to “try.”
AA is how I got and stay sober, but it was the moderate people with a lot of time sober and patience who are in AA who really helped me. The Big Book is a "manual" for sober living and sober thought, it is not all there is, nor do I believe that the 99 men and 1 woman who helped put that book together ever thought it was the be all. They just told their stories and what they had done to solve a problem that was common to each of them.
My experience is that AA or any discipline requires concerted effort, more intense at the beginning and then an eye to maintenance as time goes by. Sobriety should give us our lives back. Those lives should expand as we leave a dependence on alcohol behind. Expansion demands that we broaden our horizon and become MORE not LESS tolerant of others and their views. That is how I view sober living.
Anyone who finds commonality with my thoughts and opinions will most likely approve of what I have written and anyone who doesn't will perhaps find fault. That is what makes life in a sober state so much fun.
Just my thoughts.
Jon
April 18, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,117
Murray, I'll just say that it has more to do with the people who are saying it than It has to do with you, I'd guess. That's what I've told myself when I felt the same, and I know how much it can spin your head to be told "maybe you aren't really an alcoholic" on These boards.
On a bigger level, I stay wary of reductive, black and white thinking. It comforts some to see things as "you are or you arent" but I have always had to understand many things as a spectrum. To each his own!
On a bigger level, I stay wary of reductive, black and white thinking. It comforts some to see things as "you are or you arent" but I have always had to understand many things as a spectrum. To each his own!
Proud Neonephalist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North Coast BC Canada
Posts: 1,141
WOW! Thanks for the support and advice. I'll definitely try to not let anybody get under my skin and into my head like that in the future.
Only I know to what extent my drinking had effected my life. Only I know how close I was to going over the edge. Only I know what positive things have come about in the last six months. Better I dwell on the 99.9999% positive aspects of SR than that so very small percentage of negative thought producing stuff.
Funny though, how the alcoholic in me will grab and chew at any little chance to get me to drink again...oops...did it again
Murray
Only I know to what extent my drinking had effected my life. Only I know how close I was to going over the edge. Only I know what positive things have come about in the last six months. Better I dwell on the 99.9999% positive aspects of SR than that so very small percentage of negative thought producing stuff.
Funny though, how the alcoholic in me will grab and chew at any little chance to get me to drink again...oops...did it again
Murray
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,938
I feel encouraging anybody on a recovery site like SR to drink is irresponsible. No matter what guise its presented under. I see its like telling a person that because they didn't poison them self's with alcohol they may be only a lightweight drinker. So why not go out and poison yourself with alcohol and if you live, then you are one of us, a true drinker.
Yes my example is radical and not to be tested under any circumstances. I guess the point is, I don't feel its safe to suggest any kind of drinking test to a person seeking help with their alcohol problem...ever.
Yes my example is radical and not to be tested under any circumstances. I guess the point is, I don't feel its safe to suggest any kind of drinking test to a person seeking help with their alcohol problem...ever.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Traveling in Europe
Posts: 415
I just gotta say Jon nailed that one. I am sorry you have some experience with this, but its par for the course to brush up against people in recovery and in life... don't let it get ya down : ) Keep doing whatever you have to do to take care of yourself...
Clayton
Clayton
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