Reverse Elitism Amongst Alcoholic's
I'm trying to try.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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(I'm reacting to the original post)
DO NOT LISTEN to people that tell you that. When I went to AA at 15 I was told stuff like that. I wasn’t taken seriously because I was so young and hadn’t been drinking that long. Unfortunately, I listened to them and it was the perfect fuel for my denial. Now it is 6 years later and I’ve managed to completely screw up my life. No one will argue that I’m not an alcoholic now.
Alcoholics will find any little thing to try and convince themselves that they aren’t an alcoholic. It’s part of the disease and I wish people would know better than to say things like that.
Being in an earlier stage of this disease does not make you any less alcoholic.
DO NOT LISTEN to people that tell you that. When I went to AA at 15 I was told stuff like that. I wasn’t taken seriously because I was so young and hadn’t been drinking that long. Unfortunately, I listened to them and it was the perfect fuel for my denial. Now it is 6 years later and I’ve managed to completely screw up my life. No one will argue that I’m not an alcoholic now.
Alcoholics will find any little thing to try and convince themselves that they aren’t an alcoholic. It’s part of the disease and I wish people would know better than to say things like that.
Being in an earlier stage of this disease does not make you any less alcoholic.
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Originally Posted by bella89 
I was told stuff like that.
Perhaps you were asked to consider whether or not you were alcoholic?
Bella, and some others on this thread, I am asking.... sincerely, and I am not trying to set you up, and I will take your answer at face value...
What if a faceless member here at SR, or a low bottom drunk at AA, had told you, had pronounced that you were, in fact ... alcoholic? Look inside yourself... really... would that have convinced you to quit drinking and saved yourself years of misery. Really?
Hey, I like this thread and enjoy good dialog... I am thinking it's just a little too easy to blame another when we did, in fact, continue drinking... and who is the irresponsible party? The one who asked us to consider whether we were or were not alcoholic, even if done so indirectly, or those of us who continued drinking even when many other indicators in our own lives suggested we put down the cup?
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"What if a faceless member here at SR, or a low bottom drunk at AA, had told you, had pronounced that you were, in fact ... alcoholic? Look inside yourself... really... would that have convinced you to quit drinking and saved yourself years of misery. Really?"
Well if I am really powerless it wouldn't make a difference.
I should have read pages 20-26 in the BB a long time ago. It describes me. That is not the reason why I relapsed, I relapsed because i got lazy with my recovery and quit coming to SR, because I truly thought I cured my problem. But when you are putting together and defining your own recovery program I wasn't sure whether I needed a lifetime program, or whether I would be able to kind of forget I was an alcoholic...which I did. Live and learn.
But whether a faceless member here or at AA were to say in no uncertain terms that yes, Super, you are an alcoholic, it might have made me quit earlier.
I was thinking about this earlier in the day. When I was in High School I was a BMOC, and also a big drinker. In fact I singlehandedly got our Ski Club shut down because I was the leader of a huge alcohol bash. When I got caught and reprimanded by the Teacher who was in charge, he made a comment to me about how someday he would find me faced down drunk in a gutter. I really think at this time in my life, about 17 years old he knew that I was an alcoholic....I wish instead of him trying to tell my future, maybe he should have gone to my parents and told them that I have alcoholic tendencies. I have thought back to that comment many times in my life, and truthfully although he was a bitter old jerk, he had me pegged right, and maybe he could have saved me alot of problems in my future if he would have delivered that message more to help me rather than insult me.
Well if I am really powerless it wouldn't make a difference.
I should have read pages 20-26 in the BB a long time ago. It describes me. That is not the reason why I relapsed, I relapsed because i got lazy with my recovery and quit coming to SR, because I truly thought I cured my problem. But when you are putting together and defining your own recovery program I wasn't sure whether I needed a lifetime program, or whether I would be able to kind of forget I was an alcoholic...which I did. Live and learn.
But whether a faceless member here or at AA were to say in no uncertain terms that yes, Super, you are an alcoholic, it might have made me quit earlier.
I was thinking about this earlier in the day. When I was in High School I was a BMOC, and also a big drinker. In fact I singlehandedly got our Ski Club shut down because I was the leader of a huge alcohol bash. When I got caught and reprimanded by the Teacher who was in charge, he made a comment to me about how someday he would find me faced down drunk in a gutter. I really think at this time in my life, about 17 years old he knew that I was an alcoholic....I wish instead of him trying to tell my future, maybe he should have gone to my parents and told them that I have alcoholic tendencies. I have thought back to that comment many times in my life, and truthfully although he was a bitter old jerk, he had me pegged right, and maybe he could have saved me alot of problems in my future if he would have delivered that message more to help me rather than insult me.
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OK, fair enough, I meant what I said, that I would accept your reply at face value.
As I've said repeatedly, I was disturbed and shaken by this very question myself, and while I had resolved it within myself, I still wondered about why that question shook me up...
AA defines a "real alcoholic" in the Big Book... Powerless over alcohol... And they go on to suggest that if you are unsure, perhaps you should try some controlled drinking (among other things, like stopping for a year...)... because... in AA's program, we proceed in AA's suggested program of recovery only when we are utterly convinced, to our innermost selves, that we are, in fact, powerless over alcohol, that we are alcoholic...
Important stuff, especially if you are AA, because the other 11 steps need to be built on a solid and unshakable first step.... (And if you aren't AA, you can forget everything I said, but please note my next paragraph...)
So, here in SR, or at AA, a newcomer, or a non AA type comes and says... "I am not powerless over alcohol..." For whatever reason, they reject the notion of powerlessness, reject the higher power thing, whatever... They say... "I am not powerless over alcohol..." well, then, the AA, knowing AAs definition of an alcoholic, "a real alcoholic"... says ... "well, perhaps you are not a real alcoholic like me..."
So...
Reverse Elitism? Powerlessness? Higher Power? .... or maybe, we just have different definitions of alcoholism and a different language of recovery?
Thanx, Murray, your thread has helped this alcoholic with something that had been troubling me...
As I've said repeatedly, I was disturbed and shaken by this very question myself, and while I had resolved it within myself, I still wondered about why that question shook me up...
AA defines a "real alcoholic" in the Big Book... Powerless over alcohol... And they go on to suggest that if you are unsure, perhaps you should try some controlled drinking (among other things, like stopping for a year...)... because... in AA's program, we proceed in AA's suggested program of recovery only when we are utterly convinced, to our innermost selves, that we are, in fact, powerless over alcohol, that we are alcoholic...
Important stuff, especially if you are AA, because the other 11 steps need to be built on a solid and unshakable first step.... (And if you aren't AA, you can forget everything I said, but please note my next paragraph...)
So, here in SR, or at AA, a newcomer, or a non AA type comes and says... "I am not powerless over alcohol..." For whatever reason, they reject the notion of powerlessness, reject the higher power thing, whatever... They say... "I am not powerless over alcohol..." well, then, the AA, knowing AAs definition of an alcoholic, "a real alcoholic"... says ... "well, perhaps you are not a real alcoholic like me..."
So...
Reverse Elitism? Powerlessness? Higher Power? .... or maybe, we just have different definitions of alcoholism and a different language of recovery?
Thanx, Murray, your thread has helped this alcoholic with something that had been troubling me...
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Well I have come to find out that the most important word in my recovery is "acceptance". Once I accept the fact that I am an alcoholic and I can never drink again, and if I can do that happily and contently, and then I make sure I remember that daily just so I don't accidently forget. It might not work forever, but the acceptance part makes everything else a whole lot easier!
I'm trying to try.
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Mark, an AA member told me I hadn’t been drinking long enough to be an alcoholic. My sponsor would roll her eyes at me when I would talk to her about my struggles. Of course, at the same time, many people told me I AM an alcoholic and of course I didn’t listen to them! But when someone said I’m not one I listened real good! I know nothing can convince me to stop drinking except myself. When you’re fragile like that (and I guess when you’re just plain not ready yet) it’s so easy to take someone’s words and run with them. Denial is so freakin’ powerful it’s ridiculous. And I know that I ALONE LET IT BE. At the same time, though, I thought it was pretty rude for someone to do that, especially someone who knows a thing or 2 about denial.
That’s all in the past though. I didn’t mean that as a knock against AA or anything…I love going to AA and most of the people I’ve met there are wonderful. In my last post I just meant that some people might tell you that you don’t have a real problem and don’t listen to it even though you might really want to.
As for blaming others…well I’m kinda an expert at that (I promise I’m working on it)!
That’s all in the past though. I didn’t mean that as a knock against AA or anything…I love going to AA and most of the people I’ve met there are wonderful. In my last post I just meant that some people might tell you that you don’t have a real problem and don’t listen to it even though you might really want to.
As for blaming others…well I’m kinda an expert at that (I promise I’m working on it)!
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My kids are about your age based on what I can figure from your post.... Before I started in AA and here, I might have had a similar preconception... But I am learning too... My son has at least two friends that have already "earned their seat in the rooms" ... As they say... So thanx for posting and contributing to the excellent dialog here at SR!!
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Thanks for your post Bella...I think it must have been a pretty big deal to seek help at 15 and I am wicked impressed you have found it now...
Mark...it has never been directed at me but I have seen people who are on shaky ground come here and be told about how if they are a " real alcoholic" AA and abstinence are the only options. This disturbs me because I can see it chase off people who are looking for help. Even if that person is only a problem drinker...if they are coming here it means they are worried and support and encouragement in "sobriety" is the best we can offer.
And perhaps it is also our moral obligation as well.
Mark...it has never been directed at me but I have seen people who are on shaky ground come here and be told about how if they are a " real alcoholic" AA and abstinence are the only options. This disturbs me because I can see it chase off people who are looking for help. Even if that person is only a problem drinker...if they are coming here it means they are worried and support and encouragement in "sobriety" is the best we can offer.
And perhaps it is also our moral obligation as well.
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I've been somewhat heavily involved in several non-AA recovery programs for the last 5+ years, to help out those who cannot/willnot do AA.
Might suggest those who prefer other paths spend time in those programs and see what they have to offer. A lot of the stuff is bland and meaningless, but there are some good points made.
No one has to swallow everything there, just take what seems right to you and makes some sense and discard the rest.
Might suggest those who prefer other paths spend time in those programs and see what they have to offer. A lot of the stuff is bland and meaningless, but there are some good points made.
No one has to swallow everything there, just take what seems right to you and makes some sense and discard the rest.
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Originally Posted by cabledude
I've been somewhat heavily involved in several non-AA recovery programs for the last 5+ years, to help out those who cannot/willnot do AA.
Might suggest those who prefer other paths spend time in those programs and see what they have to offer. A lot of the stuff is bland and meaningless, but there are some good points made.
No one has to swallow everything there, just take what seems right to you and makes some sense and discard the rest.
Might suggest those who prefer other paths spend time in those programs and see what they have to offer. A lot of the stuff is bland and meaningless, but there are some good points made.
No one has to swallow everything there, just take what seems right to you and makes some sense and discard the rest.
By program of recovery i mean an organised, structured program for addicts/alcoholics e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous, LifeRing Secular Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety, SMART Recovery etc.
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
By program of recovery i mean an organised, structured program for addicts/alcoholics e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous, LifeRing Secular Recovery, Secular Organizations for Sobriety, SMART Recovery etc.
I agree with your definition...which is actually what my thread was about...lol...Murray's thread was about people being told they weren't real alcoholics and that being a contributing factor to some people not getting help earlier.
Correct me if I'm wrong Murray
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Originally Posted by LaFemme
I agree with your definition...which is actually what my thread was about...lol...Murray's thread was about people being told they weren't real alcoholics and that being a contributing factor to some people not getting help earlier.
Correct me if I'm wrong Murray
Correct me if I'm wrong Murray
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8
Y'know as i posted it before rushing out the door i thought hang on...nah...yeah i think i have kind of morphed your's and Murray's threads and still managed to come up with a post that has, at best, a tenuous relation to either...hmmm...
Murray and I do look a lot alike
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Originally Posted by LaFemme
Murray and I do look a lot alike
Murray
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